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jt512


Dec 3, 2004, 10:16 AM
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The prevailing trad ethic was always falling - no hang[dogg]ing allowed.

The prevailing ethic was falling and lowering to the ground, and making every subsequent attempt from the ground up. Hangdogging isn't defined by taking instead of falling, but rather by not lowering to the ground after you've weighted the rope. It is simply a more efficient means of learning to climb harder: you can work a problem move repeatedly, if necessary, without having to repeat the entire climb just to get one more shot at the move. Ideally, in sport climbing, the decision to "take" should be motivated by efficient redpoint tactics, not by lack of "boldness." While you're still working out moves it is a waste of energy to always climb till you fall.

-Jay


healyje


Dec 3, 2004, 12:38 PM
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The prevailing ethic was falling and lowering to the ground, and making every subsequent attempt from the ground up. Hangdogging isn't defined by taking instead of falling, but rather by not lowering to the ground after you've weighted the rope.

Jay, I'll buy into that clarification of the definition, I still lower to the belay and pull the rope, reclipping on subsequent attempts on both trad and bolt protected routes, indoors and out...

In reply to:
It is simply a more efficient means of learning to climb harder: you can work a problem move repeatedly, if necessary, without having to repeat the entire climb just to get one more shot at the move. Ideally, in sport climbing, the decision to "take" should be motivated by efficient redpoint tactics, not by lack of "boldness." While you're still working out moves it is a waste of energy to always climb till you fall.

I'll also buy the use of hanging in the context of the "redpoint" ethic and rationale. I do certainly recognize the efficiency in working through the moves on routes this way. I just don't happen to buy into it for myself as I like to approach routes as ground up puzzles and feel that focusing on that aspect of developing/maintaining physical abilities can have the side effect of work against you relative to developing the integrated physical/mental/emotional skillset that I feel is important in trad climbing - particularly those you need to bring to bear in runout situations where you are going to have to perform on the spot, fall, or downclimb rather than hang and work through it...


allan_thomson


Dec 3, 2004, 12:43 PM
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[quote="clausti"]I mean, if we're going to be throwing things around here, we could just as easily say that a typical trad route is nothing but an easy sport route with mind-f--- clips.
quote]

Bit more than just a mind fuck when you're hanging around trying to place gear, hoping you can get it placed good and get to a good stance where you can take a rest. I didn't think onsight was quite so important in sports.


allan_thomson


Dec 3, 2004, 12:56 PM
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Sport ethics have won (even on "trad" climbs) for a reason---your way doesn't make logical sense. Ground up? But I can freaking walk to the top of the cliff! No hanging? But I'll redpoint it more than twice as fast. Don't fall? Then why would I bother to clip any pro? Wtf?

Your way of climbing is obsolete and more contrived. Most modern climbers are interested in the climbing. That is, the movement on the rock. We don't care about the neo-random "ethical" rules of days past.

Wtf!!???!!!! The gear is there to makes sure the impact of your fall isn't too great. Trad ethics are better, as to be able to onsight a climb without falling is the ultimate aim (even in sports - are you telling me you aim to fall!!???!!!). If you can't onsight it, then really you don't climb at that grade. Saying anything else, is just pretension. We can all inch ourselves up a climb bit by bit, but it takes a heck of a lot more to do it in one.

Trad is not the past. It should be the ultimate aim, as only then can you actually claim to have reached the peak of your climbing - think about it, being able to climb from the ground up and hanging about and placing gear, reliant on your own bodies stamina, not just inching yourself up by clipping into periodically placed bolts, then being able to take a rest when it suits you.


fracture


Dec 3, 2004, 1:02 PM
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Oh, but wait. What about aid? Is the Salathe not trad? Robbins was a hangdog!


Fracture, we've had this discussion before - aid is aid, free climbing is free climbing - aid is what we do to move up rock at the end of the free climbing road. As our collective abilities evolve aid routes get freed. Aid is completely legitimate and if your average sport climber is nervous or scared of trad climbing, than the odds of them wandering into real aid territory are pretty damn slim.

Are you suggesting that it is only ok to aid something if it is too hard to be free climbed? The Salathe is only 5.13c---not uber-hard by modern standards, except that the hard pitches are high up on a big wall. Yes, too hard for Robbins, but why would you say it was ok for him to hangdog it and not free it but bad style for the Hubers (et al) to hangdog it in order to subsequently climb it free?

Where's the consistency?

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If we still had those neo-random "ethical" rules of days past we wouldn't have access problems, ...

This is beyond bogus.


fracture


Dec 3, 2004, 1:24 PM
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... to be able to onsight a climb without falling is the ultimate aim...

Not to me; I find redpointing far more fun than onsighting.

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(even in sports - are you telling me you aim to fall!!???!!!)

Pretty much. Nearly every time I go sport climbing I expect to take several falls, unless I'm taking it easy for some reason.

In reply to:
If you can't onsight it, then really you don't climb at that grade.

This is a semantic issue, and in comparison to actual language usage you are incorrect---people talk about "5.14 climbers" all the time, and there are only a dozen or so people who have onsighted 14a, and only one person who has onsighted 14b.

What does a "5.X climber" mean, if not someone who can climb a 5.X? There is no "onsight" in that.

In reply to:
Trad is not the past.

I don't think you understand the concept of "tradition". :lol:


Partner angry


Dec 3, 2004, 1:37 PM
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This sort of thing pisses me off. Why does everyone automatically assume that pure traddies lead 5.8 max? That's bullsh!t.

I have done 2 sport routes in the last 4 years. I onsight 11+ trad with impunity and my project/redpoint level is higher. I have a buddy who is a bigger elitist than me, and is WAAAAY stronger. He doesn't do sport either.

Trad does not equal weak!!!!

Weak trad climbers are weak, not trad. Just as weak sport climbers are a reflection of their weakness, not their (ghey) discipline.


photon


Dec 3, 2004, 1:41 PM
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you'd be considered pretty weak at most sport-climbing areas dude
5.11 = warm up, hope that cheers you up


Partner pt


Dec 3, 2004, 1:54 PM
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you'd be considered pretty weak at most sport-climbing areas dude
5.11 = warm up, hope that cheers you up

Whatever; Most sport only climbers couldn't touch 11+ trad, not because they're scared, but because it's hard. Most 5.11 sport routes I've done are far easier than a similiarly graded trad route. I'm not dogging (no pun intended!) sport climbing either, I just think the ratings are a bit different, especially at old school areas such as Eldo or Vedauwoo.


photon


Dec 3, 2004, 2:37 PM
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"Whatever; Most sport only climbers couldn't touch 11+ trad, not because they're scared, but because it's hard. Most 5.11 sport routes I've done are far easier than a similiarly graded trad route. I'm not dogging (no pun intended!) sport climbing either, I just think the ratings are a bit different, especially at old school areas such as Eldo or Vedauwoo."

Whatever: Most trad only climbers couldn't touch 11+sport, not because they're scared, but becasue it's hard. Now since it appears that you are a stronger sport climber than trad climber you really shouldn't use yourself to prove your sport only climbers couldn't theory huh? I don't know I onsited Max Factor and I can think of a few sport climbs of that grade that I haven't onsited. So now what?


healyje


Dec 3, 2004, 2:40 PM
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Oh, but wait. What about aid? Is the Salathe not trad? Robbins was a hangdog!


Fracture, we've had this discussion before - aid is aid, free climbing is free climbing - aid is what we do to move up rock at the end of the free climbing road. As our collective abilities evolve aid routes get freed. Aid is completely legitimate and if your average sport climber is nervous or scared of trad climbing, than the odds of them wandering into real aid territory are pretty damn slim.

Are you suggesting that it is only ok to aid something if it is too hard to be free climbed? The Salathe is only 5.13c---not uber-hard by modern standards, except that the hard pitches are high up on a big wall. Yes, too hard for Robbins, but why would you say it was ok for him to hangdog it and not free it but bad style for the Hubers (et al) to hangdog it in order to subsequently climb it free?

Where's the consistency?

In reply to:
If we still had those neo-random "ethical" rules of days past we wouldn't have access problems, ...

This is beyond bogus.

Fracture - you seem to have some problem with aid climbing being a legitimate type of climbing and want to continually mix the definitions and application of dogging and aid climbing - this is really a semantic stretch and isn't valid at all except in the most tenuous and abstract context for the sake of argument. You'll note my comment was time indexed relative to what was aided when 5.11's were as hard as free routes got isn't the same today where many of those aid pitches have been or are being freed now. Again, do you have some basic problem with aid climbing or do you simply use its existence as a rationale for dogging?

Talk aid or talk dogging and when talking either be clear to time index your comments - Robbins and Hubers climb[ed] in entirely different times and contexts. The Hubers freed a lot of these pitch with siege/sport tactics and I suspect that is the only way those pitches could be freed and that onsights simply weren't possible or realistic. And when you're up in the 5.12+ range that should probably be expected. The number of clean, onsight FA's decline pretty damn rapidly past that difficulty...

[Oh, and beyond bogus the comment isn't, if bolts had been used judiciously in line with trad ethics strictly as a pro-of-last-resort and there were no clip-n-go sport routes I suspect we'd have 85-90% fewer climbers in the world today. Elitist? Not really, just selfish - I don't like crowds, or the bolting of routes and access issues that follow them and have never felt any need to introduce the suburban hordes to climbing (or make a buck off of them in the process)...]


Partner pt


Dec 3, 2004, 2:49 PM
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Now since it appears that you are a stronger sport climber than trad climber you really shouldn't use yourself to prove your sport only climbers couldn't theory huh?

Why do you think I'm a better sport climber than trad climber? Actually, I climb pretty equal in terms of difficulty (sport vs trad) but I almost exclusively climb trad. So what does that mean?


fracture


Dec 3, 2004, 3:45 PM
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Where's the consistency?

Fracture - you seem to have some problem with aid climbing being a legitimate type of climbing ...

No; and I have done some (easy) aid climbing and enjoy it. I also use aid (french free) on most of my sport projects before I eventually redpoint them.

The point I'm making is that aid climbing (which is traditionally a type of climbing) is hangdogging, yet you are not consistently applying your scorn to aid.

Why don't you enumerate the conditions under which hanging on gear is acceptable? Clearly you don't universally find it unacceptable.

In reply to:
You'll note my comment was time indexed relative to what was aided when 5.11's were as hard as free routes got isn't the same today where many of those aid pitches have been or are being freed now.

The first 10 pitches of Salathe Wall (Free Blast) contains only 2 5.11's. Yet it didn't get an all-free ascent until over a decade after Robbins hangdogged his way up it. Supertopo says the pro is all C2 or better....so what gives?

You didn't answer my question about whether the difficulty is what makes it ok (in your mind) to use aid (hangdog). Was it ok (in your mind) for Robbins to hangdog Free Blast, simply because he couldn't have free climbed it? If so, does it matter what the collective ability level is, or what the individual ability level is?

John Gill did a 5.13+ (V9) boulder problem in 1959---two years before Royal hangdogged his way up a 5.11b. Similarly, now that the 5.13 pitches on the Salathe headwall are well within the collective free-climbing ability of modern climbers, certainly you don't consider all aid ascents of said pitches unethical (or do you?). So it can't be collective ability....

I hangdog/aid my way up my sport projects the first time I get on them because they are too hard for me to link it on my first try. Yet you consider that bad style/ethics. So it can't be about individual ability either....

It's difficult to be ok with aid but not sport and keep your dogma consistent....

In reply to:
The Hubers freed a lot of these pitch with siege/sport tactics and I suspect that is the only way those pitches could be freed and that onsights simply weren't possible or realistic.

For the Hubers, yes, but Yuji Hirayama (an evil, hangdogging sport climber) nearly onsighted Salathe (4 falls on his first try), and later did it from bottom to top in a day with no falls. 8^)

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[Oh, and beyond bogus the comment isn't, if bolts had been used judiciously in line with trad ethics strictly as a pro-of-last-resort and there were no clip-n-go sport routes I suspect we'd have 85-90% fewer climbers in the world today. Elitist? Not really, just selfish - I don't like crowds, or the bolting of routes and access issues that follow them and have never felt any need to introduce the suburban hordes to climbing (or make a buck off of them)...]

I don't disagree with the number-of-climbers part (and I agree that it is selfish). What I disagree with is the broad "access issues" comment.

If anything, one could argue that more climbers means a larger interest group, forcing parks to deal with climbers and accept them as valid users. One could also argue that well-protected routes could reduce accidents (or rather the seriousness of the accidents that do occur) and thus the perception of climbing as a reckless, fringe, xtreme sport that makes some land managers uneasy about climbing.

Of course, in reality it simply depends on the specific circumstances. But it should be noted that very few nonclimbers give two shits whether people are putting bolts in the rock.


Partner angry


Dec 3, 2004, 4:09 PM
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Photon, Max Factor is a unique route. It is way pumpy, and really takes sport climbng strength to do well, I expect you would do quite well on Devils Tower too. (I didn't onsight Max Factor, of course I tried it when I was a 5.9 leader).

Those routes do not make you a unified hard trad leader.

I'm not perfect, and I'm no stranger to the hang dog, but of all the areas I visit, I climb the trad lines at about the same level. Wide, short, long, thin, chossy, or Eldo, I stay about the same. My goal is to be solid at everything to 5.12+, maybe it's my upbringing but I have never thought of bolted lines as anything more than practice routes, to develop the finger strength to do certain trad lines. Naturally it soon made more sense to boulder than to climb sport. It develops the fingers and body better and is a wee bit more pure.

I also apologize for turning this thread into a numbers sprayfest. ::as fshizzle getts another ruthless beating from maculated::

I'm not sure what the original point is, but I'll just say that an 11+ trad leader would be far better in a sport climb than a sporto climbing trad, even if the gear was preplaced.


allan_thomson


Dec 4, 2004, 8:55 AM
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[quote="allan_thomson
In reply to:
Trad is not the past.

I don't think you understand the concept of "tradition". :lol:


I think I do. Just because something is established, doens't mean it can't be the future. Remember "Those who fail to learn from history, are doomed to repeat it". Tradition plays a very important part in life, and will do so in future. Don't ever pretend that it won't.

BTW, Digusting display of a lack of true ethics. Just shows you intend to remain a pretentious punter for the rest of your life.

Most Trad climbers do a heck of a lot better at sports when they try it, than do sports climbers at Trad. Can you explain why now, the cutting edge of the climbing world aim to do sportslines in Trad? So much for being outdated eh? The ultimate aim is to be able to lead even higher grades, without the need to change the rock from how you find it. Bolts should merely be a transition stage, for the time it is impossible to lead those routes safely in Trad, until the ultimate aim of leading it trad it obtained.

The only ethic purer than Trad is free soloing. Long live the angle grinder!!!


allan_thomson


Dec 4, 2004, 9:01 AM
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"Whatever; Most sport only climbers couldn't touch 11+ trad, not because they're scared, but because it's hard. Most 5.11 sport routes I've done are far easier than a similiarly graded trad route. I'm not dogging (no pun intended!) sport climbing either, I just think the ratings are a bit different, especially at old school areas such as Eldo or Vedauwoo."

Whatever: Most trad only climbers couldn't touch 11+sport, not because they're scared, but becasue it's hard. Now since it appears that you are a stronger sport climber than trad climber you really shouldn't use yourself to prove your sport only climbers couldn't theory huh? I don't know I onsited Max Factor and I can think of a few sport climbs of that grade that I haven't onsited. So now what?

Bullsh1T!!! He's proving that despite being capable of leading harder in sports climbs, he is prepared to make a sacrifice of grades in order to display the better principles of taking the rock as it is. I would like to see you hanging around on a Trad routes, trying to get your first piece of gear in while your arms are pumped to f@ck, and then tell us that sports climbers are superior. It would probably be a bit difficult for you though, as you'd probably not have enough time between failing to get your first bit of gear in, and getting put into the back of an ambulance/morguewagon.


fracture


Dec 5, 2004, 4:13 PM
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In reply to:
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[quote="allan_thomson
In reply to:
Trad is not the past.

I don't think you understand the concept of "tradition". :lol:


...

Tradition plays a very important part in life, and will do so in future. Don't ever pretend that it won't.

This concept is dangerous (in society, not climbing). Just because something has been done one way does not mean it must always be done that way. "Tradition" is just an excuse for people to stop thinking.

In reply to:
Most Trad climbers do a heck of a lot better at sports when they try it, than do sports climbers at Trad.

What planet are you from?

Even most trad climbers admit that the opposite is the case.


jdiddy


Dec 5, 2004, 5:32 PM
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I dont know why I do it. Why in the world do I sit here and read these threads filled with ABSOLUTE NONSENSE!!!
The only thing that is more of a waste of time than me sitting here reading this crap, is the time the above authors spent writing and deliberating on such disputable matters!
It really makes me sick that our sport is filled with people who will argue over sub-divisions. Trad is trad. Sport is sport. Bouldering is bouldering. Ice is ice. Forget it!!! Enjoy what you do, respect what others enjoy!


photon


Dec 6, 2004, 9:04 AM
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allan_thomson wrote:

"I would like to see you hanging around on a Trad routes, trying to get your first piece of gear in while your arms are pumped to f@ck, and then tell us that sports climbers are superior.It would probably be a bit difficult for you though, as you'd probably not have enough time between failing to get your first bit of gear in, and getting put into the back of an ambulance/morguewagon."

Considering I mentioned that I onsited an 11c crack at Vedauwoo in my post above, in which I put at least 5-6 pieces of pro in and lived to write this post to you, I'll just assume you are too stupid to realize how stupid your are.


dingus


Dec 6, 2004, 9:13 AM
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The contention that most sport climbers couldn't lead a 5.11 trad line seems moot in light of the fact that most trad climbers can't either.

True.

DMT


Partner tradman


Dec 6, 2004, 9:24 AM
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Most Trad climbers do a heck of a lot better at sports when they try it, than do sports climbers at Trad. Can you explain why now, the cutting edge of the climbing world aim to do sportslines in Trad? So much for being outdated eh?

Great post!

Stop me if I'm wrong, but historically, haven't aid lines been progressively freed as well? It certainly seems that the ethics gravitate towards trad, don't they?


dingus


Dec 6, 2004, 9:33 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Most Trad climbers do a heck of a lot better at sports when they try it, than do sports climbers at Trad. Can you explain why now, the cutting edge of the climbing world aim to do sportslines in Trad? So much for being outdated eh?

Great post!

Stop me if I'm wrong, but historically, haven't aid lines been progressively freed as well? It certainly seems that the ethics gravitate towards trad, don't they?

Yeah, once all the cracks are de-dirted and the hairlines are bashed out to fingerlocks and all the chicken and retreat bolts have been placed and the belays are well documented and a few hundred ascents have smoothed out the rough edges. THEN we get to stylistic impovements... haha.

What's your problem with sport climbing again?

DMT


allan_thomson


Dec 6, 2004, 10:53 AM
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In reply to:

"I'll just assume you are too stupid to realize how stupid your are.

Much like yourself then????? Why not use the adjective grade to make it clear it is trad? I've put my grades into both USA, + UK, (UK adjective indicates it is trad). Do you not have the brains to do this? 5.11 does not to me indicate whether it is sports or Trad, whereas is you'd added E3 6a in brackets it would have, to expect me to know otherwise, without seeing the climb or being told if it was trad or sports is cretinous.

Anyway, I don't recall seeing you yourself actually saying that you had personally lead that, from the way you lay your postings out it looked like you were badly quoting the poster above. Perhaps in future better use of the quoting facilities would make your point clearer?


allan_thomson


Dec 6, 2004, 11:15 AM
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In reply to:
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Most Trad climbers do a heck of a lot better at sports when they try it, than do sports climbers at Trad.

What planet are you from?

Even most trad climbers admit that the opposite is the case.

No, I think you will infact find, trad climbers do actually make more progress in sports than do sports in Trad. That is because trad originated climbers have the technical knowledge + the strength + stamina for sports climbing, whereas most sports originated climbers do not have the knowledge to place gear safely.

The only thing which would further delay a trad climber in making progress in sports is their onsight ethic, but then on the other hand a sports climber trying to readpoint a trad climb on poorly placed gear (cos they haven't the experience to place it properly) is more likely to get seriously injured, and put out the game for good.


allan_thomson


Dec 6, 2004, 11:22 AM
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Re: Sport Climbing-Is It... [In reply to]
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all the chicken and retreat bolts have been placed
DMT

Not in the UK, they aren't. They'd be chopped within days.

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Forums : Climbing Disciplines : Sport Climbing

 


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