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jefffski
Dec 14, 2004, 7:50 AM
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In reply to: In fact, it is quite correct to say that dividing by zero gives infinity. But 'infinity' is not a number. So this is just another way of saying that division by zero does not have an answer that can be written. You're not a math major either, are you? Hahahaha. Curt
no you are quite incorrect. dividing by zero does not make sense (kind of like you're testing and assumptions) --hence it is undefined. find me one, 1!, site on the internet that has a proof (must conform to accepted mathematical properties like the property of distribution etc) that any number divided by zero is infinity and i will retract everything i've said--not that you care.
btw i do teach math. hahahahahah.
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jimdavis
Dec 14, 2004, 8:08 AM
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Curt, are you that oblivious? I'm not gonna argue who has more climbing experience, I've already said that.
:arrow:
"Not challenging your climbing resume Curt...just you intelligence, and your character...both of whitch your proven masterfully in this thread."
:arrow:
End of page 5, Curt..even put it in bold so you wouldn't need your glasses.
But, I guess your having a senior moment cause you missed it again when I pointed it out again... middle page 6.
In reply to: In reply to: curt wrote: Let's really consider who started the mud slinging here. I started a post about a new belay technique that works really well, within the given caveats I posted and you, with no knowledge of this technique whatsoever, slam it and me personally. In reply to: No, I merely pointed out the manorism is which you defend yourself. By insulting others. You are simply a bitter, hostile person, who belives he has to be right.
It's pretty easy to understand Curt, I'm just showing that your an a$$hole!
Everyone who's critisized this obviously "limited" belay technique gets called a noobie or a gumby, or stupid, or you make some poor attempt to discredit them.
Your a bitter a$$hole, as can be seen by your behavior on a multitude of other threads. It doesn't take a "climbing veteran" to see that.
Nor does it take a climbing veteran to see that your party trick belay technique is at best, an alternative last resort technique that will never be safe enough, nor sensible enough, for any reasonable person to use.
So, Curt... I rest my case.
You have proven yourself to be a beligerant, hostile person. Your arguments for why this is safe involves you and a few buddies trying this out for a few hours, and then arguing that it is safe for twice as long. You've undergone no formal testing, and you have 3 people to witness your tests. Hardly convincing...
As for my experience, attack it for all you want. I've talked with, learned from, worked under, and climbed with numorous AMGA guides, and certified Rock Instructors and TRSM's; as well as world renowned Rock and Ice climbers, as well as a contributing editor to Climbing Mag. I've talked in depth about climbing techniques and systems with one of the AMGA Technical Review chairpersons as well. But this isn't think beef, it's mine.
I don't claim to be a mega-experienced climber, Curt. But you can keep saying that I'm not if that makes you happy...
Your attitude of not being able to learn something from someone of less experience just proves what I've said...your an elitist.
But we already knew that, didn't we Curt?
Now, I'm done. I've wasted enough of my life on this.
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joshy8200
Dec 14, 2004, 8:27 AM
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Previously I said that this looked very suspect. After reading through this thread, that was a very gumby statement for me to make. Since my experience with this is zero I cannot make sweeping judgements about this technique. This makes Curt's experience "infinitely" more than mine (the dividing by zero being inifinite put that in perspective for me).
While I doubt I will ever have any use for this technique, maybe I wil test it with someone backing me up to understand how you got this to work so well for you.
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healyje
Dec 14, 2004, 8:51 AM
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Curt -
Just stumbled in on this late in all the acrimony and I can't quite go with you on this one...
This technique will stop falls, but only under highly idealized conditions:
* Little or no slack
* Adequate rope drag
* Solid stance with ability to get and keep weight on your foot
But in general, without a lot of rope drag in the system, you won't be able to stop a fall with any significant length with slack in the system. If you lose balance in a fall the best case scenario is that the rope goes between your legs, but the ensuing slack will likely rip your hands.
The point of a hip belay is to be able to turn yourself into an anchor and it allows you to do that even as you lose balance. The fact that it is uncomfortable is a small price to pay for the security it offers.
We used hip belays exclusively for years of multi-pitch leading early in my climbing career and have used foot belays for lowering equipment on job sites, but under no circumstances would I use it for a climbing belay and would hope no one else will take this thread, or it's title, as a cue to do so.
Also, with regard to being without a harness - you aren't if you have a rope: see my post at the end of the following thread for a great harness made from your rope (we took lots and lots of lead falls with this over the years...)http://www.rockclimbing.com/....php?p=892954#892954
To a large extent, this, and about every other way you can think of to belay someone has been thought of, vetted, and either passed on or discarded over the years. Kudos on your creativity in a pinch, but this one never made the cut over the years for good reasons...
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joshy8200
Dec 14, 2004, 9:10 AM
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Ohh...I'm not saying that division by zero is actually possible. I did do a very brief search on this topic and it seems that it is generally accepted that dividing by zero is kind of like breaking a mathematical law.
But the concept is that dividing a number by zero, would be like trying to divide it an infinite number of times because each division would be zero.
The other thing that people should note is that I don't think Curt is being all that confrontational at all. He calls people noobies or gumbies because people who have little experience with this technique are professing about it like they have tested it themselves.
It also helps that if you're going to critique people in writing that you can do so in grammatically correct ways. I realize that we all make mistakes in spelling from time to time. But multiple errors within the same sentence or two is pretty bad.
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bler
Dec 14, 2004, 9:14 AM
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I agree with Healyje :
although this does look like it would work ; espically under ideal no-slack circumstances, the only worry I may have would be : if there were any slack, and a fall was taken, your feet could much easier be pulled out from under you, throwing you on your back then a body belay witch would only pull your body weight upwards (using your body weight as an anchor).
When you are sitting, or leaning aginst the rope, your center of gravity is right aginst the lowest part of the rope, wheras when you are standing on the rope, your COG is just above your hips (~3' above the rope), causing your balance to fall off the rope much more easily.
I have no doubt that this does work, and probably much easier and more comfortable for most top-roping situations, but I probably would not recomend it, it just adds more possibilities of error to the situation.
Though, I am only a newbie, so I really have no firsthand experience even using a body belay..
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digit
Dec 14, 2004, 11:28 AM
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From the previous posts, we can easily assume that only a few people (like, say, 10 guys) actually tried this belay method. So, as Curt pointed out, he has infinitely more experience than most of us with it. (And, by the way, Curt, "infinity" can easily be written. There's a even symbol just for it: a rotated "8" that looks like "oo". And I must say I'm no math major either: I learned that in high school.) Since we, beginners of all sorts (from 0 to 24 years of climbing experience), shall not express opinions about things we didn't personally experienced, one would have either to try it or to shut up, forever. However, those who wouldn't trust this system just because they read about it on the internet (just like me) won't try it. Therefore, the only people who are allowed to risk a comment in this thread are those who tried it and didn't die, and must then have a pretty positive opinion of it.
Very clever, Mr. Shannon...
By the way, Curt, since your strong ethic forbids you to comment about anything you don't know and didn't experienced, what do you fu--ing know about being Canadian? I have even more than 25 years of experience in this area. Do you? Or were you only talking about being "not smart enough" ?
(Curt, when you furiously reply to this post for my initiation on this site, would you please keep in mind that I have a lot of respect for your climbing experience and all the knowledge you brought to this forum, but much less for your general attitude in this thread (and others)? Thanks. Rant on...)
See you at a Mensa meeting.
fc
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fracture
Dec 14, 2004, 2:47 PM
Post #108 of 345
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In reply to: To a large extent, this, and about every other way you can think of to belay someone has been thought of, vetted, and either passed on or discarded over the years. Kudos on your creativity in a pinch, but this one never made the cut over the years for good reasons...
Great post, healyje. And I don't think Curt can really flame you for lack of experience, either. 8^)
I'd definitely prefer a real hip belay to this. Call me a n00b, I don't care. :D
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quickclips
Dec 14, 2004, 2:57 PM
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I would think the dynamics of a fall would effect your footing. With a body belay, you can absorb that, but how do you do it with a foot belay. If you someone already commented on this sorry, I'm to lazy to read everything.
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sarcat
Dec 14, 2004, 3:10 PM
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Same question as quickclips.
In reply to: I would think the dynamics of a fall would effect your footing. With a body belay, you can absorb that, but how do you do it with a foot belay? |
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noshoesnoshirt
Dec 14, 2004, 3:11 PM
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I used to do this to control the rope whilst lowering equipment off of towers. The only problem I encountered was that the rope would quickly burn a groove in your boot, ruining the sole.
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reno
Dec 14, 2004, 3:19 PM
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OK, so I'm missing something.
Why not tie a bight of rope, and use a Munter?
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nthusiastj
Dec 14, 2004, 3:30 PM
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Isn't a similar tecnique described in "freedom of the hills"?
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curt
Dec 14, 2004, 3:35 PM
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In reply to: It's pretty easy to understand Curt, I'm just showing that your an a$$hole! Everyone who's critisized this obviously "limited" belay technique gets called a noobie or a gumby, or stupid, or you make some poor attempt to discredit them. Your a bitter a$$hole, as can be seen by your behavior on a multitude of other threads. It doesn't take a "climbing veteran" to see that. Nor does it take a climbing veteran to see that your party trick belay technique is at best, an alternative last resort technique that will never be safe enough, nor sensible enough, for any reasonable person to use. So, Curt... I rest my case. You have proven yourself to be a beligerant, hostile person.
Funny post. You call me an asshole, belligerant, hostile, elitist and a number of other things but you accuse me of attacking you by calling you a n00b, which you are, with all of your three years climbing experience. Furthermore, nothing is more assholish or arrogant as someone with so little experience as yourself pretending that they know better than far more experienced climbers. Try reading alpnclmbr1's post. He is exactly right. I hope you do keep your word and STFU on this topic, which you obviously know nothing about.
Curt
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taualum23
Dec 14, 2004, 3:35 PM
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In reply to: What people have to keep in mind about Curt, is that he is infallible.
Another thing people need to realize about Curt (especially less experienced climbers!!) is that he has been climbing a long time, and has a great deal of experience. As such, he is more capable of developing and using ideas that are not AS safe as a properly executed conventional belay in all situations, but may, given the right people and circumstances, be acceptable. It is recognizing the amoputn of risk involved, as well as the features of the systmes involved, that makes somoene experienced enough tto decide whether he or she wantes to/ will accept the use of said systems.
I might not always agree wiuth Curt, and feel he is often unnecesarily harsh, but to call him a gumby based on anything he has posted here is just dumb. Even if he believes the Macallan 25 is a worth the money, when there are such better options in Speyside highland single malts to be had.
Edit: PS I'm not stepping into this fight, nor am I defending Curt per se (doesn't need my help), but jsut saying keep in mind that climbers, when expereinced, can make their own calls, and nOObs should keep belaying the way that they were taught.
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curt
Dec 14, 2004, 3:40 PM
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In reply to: Curt - Just stumbled in on this late in all the acrimony and I can't quite go with you on this one... This technique will stop falls, but only under highly idealized conditions: * Little or no slack * Adequate rope drag * Solid stance with ability to get and keep weight on your foot But in general, without a lot of rope drag in the system, you won't be able to stop a fall with any significant length with slack in the system. If you lose balance in a fall the best case scenario is that the rope goes between your legs, but the ensuing slack will likely rip your hands.
Well, I have already pointed out that this belay was only used for TR belaying (i.e. very little slack by definition) and I would not recommend it for belaying a lead climber. Within the context of TR belaying, however, we found it to work fine. I suggest you also try it before being too critical.
Curt
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j_ung
Dec 14, 2004, 3:47 PM
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In reply to: Well, at least you'll have pictures along with the story to submit to the Darwin Awards. :D Jim
Jim, the above was your first post in this thread. At this point in time several very experienced climbers who aren't curt have stated that they believe the belay technique in question may have at least some merit. You have posted only anti-curt messages, including much about his character and little about the post topic. Your posts have the tone of a rant while curt's, though smug to be sure, have a calm, confident air. And, though he's done more than his share of flaming in this thread, curt has also responded seriously and with respect to everyone who hasn't discounted his ideas and attacked him on sight.
I think it's in your best interest to either go out and test this belay method, and then post in opposition to it, or just stop altogether. I know my advice is unsolicited; sorry 'bout that. I'm just getting a little tired of all the flamage.
Thanks,
Jay
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sigep_rockstar
Dec 14, 2004, 3:55 PM
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dont bite my head off or anything for this post because i am a newbie.
i didnt really see one in the pic but if it was me and i had forgotten my belay device i would have just put a couple wraps around the nearest tree. we do this alot in esidential tree work to lower large pieces to the ground. two or three wraps around a decent sized tree will hold a very big log.
just another option as opposed to the boot belay. i have no experience with it, but i have lots of experience with the tree.
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monaann
Dec 14, 2004, 4:09 PM
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Who was the moron on the other end? Both of you should get the darwin award! You know there are more stupid people out there then I like to think so why would you even suggest this?
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reno
Dec 14, 2004, 4:09 PM
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j_ung:
Thank you. You said it better than I could have.
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j_ung
Dec 14, 2004, 4:30 PM
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arrgh.
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matttracyg
Dec 14, 2004, 4:40 PM
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It takes no expert to figure out that this was extreemly unsafe. You must have been pretty desperate to climb, to have taken that kind of risk without all the right gear. People on this site squabble over the safety of anchors all the time on this site, but this setup is a joke.
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dingus
Dec 14, 2004, 4:57 PM
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In reply to: It takes no expert to figure out that this was extreemly unsafe. You must have been pretty desperate to climb, to have taken that kind of risk without all the right gear. People on this site squabble over the safety of anchors all the time on this site, but this setup is a joke.
I bet Curt has free soloed from time to time. Done some highballs. Run it out over a death fall. Risked his life to climb.
Maybe he was desperate to climb. Maybe he's an adequate judge of his climbing safety needs. I don't know a whole lot about him, but I suspect he's been less injured than me, hence safer.
The fact that safety czars take it upon themselves to squabble over delusions of safety are not really relevant.
Is free soloing a joke? A5? Climbing a couloir in a storm? Risking it all on a grade VII in Pakistan?
Is it OK with you BIG GUY, that climbing contain an element of risk and uncertainty? Does EVERYTHING have to be couched to the weakest link?
Curt? Thanks man, for posting this. You HAD TO KNOW the reaction you'd get (and I bet you were maybe even a little eager to get it on???). I looked at it and thought, OK, similar to a boot axe belay, but different. It's yet another rope trick that may come in handy some day.
Preciate it man.
DMT
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monaann
Dec 14, 2004, 5:37 PM
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How am I going to post from my grave?
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jt512
Dec 14, 2004, 5:49 PM
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In reply to: sorry curt, I don't buy it. I mean, we all know how dangerous tying in on a bowline-coil is. It can suffocate people! All it would take for disaster to happen would be for the climber to take a fall while you were busy staring a the hottie on the next climb over, thus forgetting to lower him. Two, maybe three hours of gawking at prana tops, and your partner could be DEAD.
This is situational. The probability of running into anyone under the age of 47 at any of Curt's favorite bouldering areas is infinitesimal. The young hotties stick to overhanging limestone and problems with holds.
-Jay
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