|
socalclimber
Dec 20, 2004, 6:31 PM
Post #26 of 94
(41128 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 27, 2001
Posts: 2437
|
Thanks for the link John. I hadn't seen that one. Robert
|
|
|
|
|
vivalargo
Dec 20, 2004, 6:38 PM
Post #27 of 94
(41128 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 26, 2002
Posts: 1512
|
In reply to: I feel bad for his family, but not for him. I'd don't believe that for a second--or maybe I'm just hoping you don't actually hold that view for a fellow climber who's already feeling terrible, if he's feeling anything at all. JL
|
|
|
|
|
adnix
Dec 20, 2004, 7:47 PM
Post #28 of 94
(41128 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 20, 2003
Posts: 584
|
In reply to: But she is a logical, thoughtful woman, and she loves me. So when she asks me not to solo, how can I really respond? Take her climbing and explain her what it is all about. She will (hopefully) understand it. People usually fear things they don't know about. If she keeps her opinion, don't push her. Pushing will do no good.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
slobmonster
Dec 20, 2004, 8:22 PM
Post #30 of 94
(41128 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 28, 2003
Posts: 1586
|
In reply to: In reply to: But she is a logical, thoughtful woman, and she loves me. So when she asks me not to solo, how can I really respond? Take her climbing and explain her what it is all about. She will (hopefully) understand it. Mind you, she is a climber, her dad's a climber (of the slow-and-heavy, two backup balaclava school of mountaineering), and we've done quite a few routes together. When asked, I respond with how I truly feel about it, and that reiterates the problem. The problem being, in her mind, that I would consider doing such a thing at all. But I think we've co-opted this thread: if anyone has an email address, physical address of the hospital James is in, or anything similar, please pass it along.
|
|
|
|
|
inflight
Dec 20, 2004, 10:21 PM
Post #31 of 94
(41128 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 28, 2002
Posts: 172
|
One thing remains consistent in the sport of climbing, the convivial and communal spirit of all. It was very instrumental in keeping James motivated to hang on and breath. There was little else we could do other than stabilize his neck, monitor his vitals and talk to him. Surprisingly, he was conscious and even talked. Simply amazing that James was alert. We are fortunate to have SAR and life flight. I remember a quote from a self rescue book that says anyone in this sport long enough will inevitably come across disaster if not of their own that of someone else. It makes a stronger community when we are all familiar with taking care of each other. In the 2 years that I have been certified as a WFR, I have had to recall and use those skills 3 times. It is difficult to recall all the techincals but it can make a difference have some knowledge of the subject. I was hanging out near Double Cross on the Old Woman and saw James and another person in the alcove just where the North Overhang Roof begins.I watched them in a series of glances. At one glance I saw them in the alcove. At another glance, I saw someone on the face, past the crux of North Overhang as if they were on Huevos, a face climb to the right rated at 11d. He hung there for a minute or two and appeared in control. When he fell, he did not appear to fall from the crux of North Overhang. It sounds bizarre I know but that is what I saw. It could be possible he was soloing part of Huevos for more of a challenge. But he was past the crux of North Overhang and on the face when he fell. It makes little difference though. I saw him fall to the first ledge then to the ground. He reached the first ledge landing on the upper portion of his back across the shoulder blades, not his head. He then slid off the ledge to the ground but I could not tell how he landed due to obstructions. My partner was belaying another person, Brad(?) from Iowa, and got extremely emotional upon witnessing the accident. I spent time calming her down then switched over the belay to myself so I could lower Brad before so I could get to the scene. I really thought he was done give the size the of the fall. It is amazing he was conscious, alert and breathing. There were a variety of witnesses and they had placed blankets on him while one person secured his head to prevent him from moving it and spoke encouraging words to him. A woman was holding his hand and encouraging him as well to hang on and breath. A variety of others, including Brad from Iowa, came over and assisted in the whole effort of assessing and encouraging him to breath. It is emotionally draining but that was the best medicine. So thanks to all of you for the positive support. It was all we could do until advance life support arrived. A call had already been placed so I proceeded to assess. He regained consciousness approximately 10 minutes after the fall. He was verbally responsive. He was breathing on his own but it was with much effort. He was able to open his mouth as well. His pulse dropped comparing the two times I took it. He could move his hands and legs which indicated no serious damage to his spinal chord. I did not assess anything below the waist in fear of further damaging his spine since it had not been cleared. Initially, there were no signs of external bleeding. He lifted his head in an effort to look around. THis was another great sign of his mobility. We instructed him to stay still. A Ranger was the first 'official' personnel on the scene. I think her name was Anna. She administered oxygen and made a call for life flight. Additional personnel arrived and provided IV's and additional ALS until he was flown out. For those that were there, I write this so you know you are not alone in feeling the impact of this incident. There are others who feel the same way. He will get better. That is my expectation and it is due impart to those who chose to encourage and stay by his side. Regardless of the choices climbers make, no one deserves to be denied help. Some view climbing roped just as silly as climbing un roped. Climbing is self-gratifying and the causes of accidents are irrelevant to the duty to sustain life in the event of an accident. Regardless of choices James made, I choose to be a positive contributor to the climbing community by being responsible enough to learn life saving skills because it is inevitable that disaster will strike at a minor or major level. It is beneficial to us all to be prepared to care for each other's since it is likely that a climber, all of us, will be first on the scene of a climbing accident. Peace to you all.
|
|
|
|
|
socalclimber
Dec 20, 2004, 10:28 PM
Post #32 of 94
(41128 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 27, 2001
Posts: 2437
|
In reply to: slobmonster wrote: But she is a logical, thoughtful woman, and she loves me. So when she asks me not to solo, how can I really respond? Take her climbing and explain her what it is all about. She will (hopefully) understand it. People usually fear things they don't know about. If she keeps her opinion, don't push her. Pushing will do no good. Pushing isn't the issue. She won't understand it. The only you are going to understand someone's reason for soloing is if you solo yourself. It's just that simple. Just like you are not likely to convince someone who doesn't climb why you climb. There's no point in trying to convince someone of this. Get over it, or don't do it. Robert
|
|
|
|
|
chouca
Dec 20, 2004, 11:04 PM
Post #33 of 94
(41128 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 12, 2003
Posts: 149
|
Everybody that climbs long enough pushes beyond the limits of gear, skill, strength, etc. Most of us luck out. Some of us get bailed out. We all know the dangers of the game, but there is no reason for smugness when another climber makes mistakes. It could have been anyone of us in that went climbing this weekend in the same position. I hope he makes a full recovery and is back on the rock in the future. He took the risk and now is paying the price. Speedy recovery, Marc
|
|
|
|
|
fredbob
Dec 20, 2004, 11:56 PM
Post #34 of 94
(41128 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 7, 2003
Posts: 455
|
This is very sad news. And whether a climber is hurt or killed from a fluke fall on a 5.5 he/she had sewed up with bomber gear (it happens), a run out trad route, or free soloing 5.12, it is a loss. All climbing is fraught with danger, whether we may recognize it or not. My wish to this climber is that he have a full recovery. A fall from North Overhang is not a pleasant thought. When I read about this (somewhat like Largo), it hit me on a visceral level --- it is a route that I have regularly free soloed. Soloing is an intregal part of a continuum of climbing. Sharing the same end of the spectrum with soloing are many routes which are usually climbed with a rope and belay, but are perhaps no more than elaborate free solos. There is no clear demarcation, but as climbers we chose our own line on what is safe and what is not; a line which we do not knowingly cross. To say that soloing is not part and parcel of the climbing experience or that its practitioners are not deserving of compassion or understanding only demonstrates profound ignorance. In addition, I believe that such an attitude only tempts the fates to redraw that illusionary line when you least expect it.
|
|
|
|
|
ascentist
Dec 21, 2004, 2:18 AM
Post #35 of 94
(41128 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 26, 2003
Posts: 2
|
It is unfortunate that the tragedy happened but if your going to ignore ALL of the basic safety rules of climbing then I don't feel sorry for the climber. What I do feel sorry for is all the friends, family, and people who witness the accident. :!:
|
|
|
|
|
fredbob
Dec 21, 2004, 2:36 AM
Post #36 of 94
(41128 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 7, 2003
Posts: 455
|
In reply to: It is unfortunate that the tragedy happened but if your going to ignore ALL of the basic safety rules of climbing then I don't feel sorry for the climber. Pretty odd words coming from someone who posted the following:
In reply to: .....to each his own. Just enjoy the climbing
|
|
|
|
|
jakedatc
Dec 21, 2004, 2:47 AM
Post #38 of 94
(41128 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 12, 2003
Posts: 11054
|
In reply to: It is unfortunate that the tragedy happened but if your going to ignore ALL of the basic safety rules of climbing then I don't feel sorry for the climber. What I do feel sorry for is all the friends, family, and people who witness the accident. :!: you're forgetting the original trad ethic of the leader does not fall.. soloing follows this to the letter
|
|
|
|
|
socalclimber
Dec 21, 2004, 2:53 AM
Post #39 of 94
(41128 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 27, 2001
Posts: 2437
|
In reply to: ascentist wrote: It is unfortunate that the tragedy happened but if your going to ignore ALL of the basic safety rules of climbing then I don't feel sorry for the climber. Again folks, let's keep this in perspective. If we want to start an entire thread on whether solo'ing is dangerous, stupid etc. then let's do it in another thread. Please try to remember that James friends, parents, family etc are probably reading this. Let's try to demonstrate the real sense of community that climbing is supposed to be about. Robert
|
|
|
|
|
chanceboarder
Dec 21, 2004, 3:50 AM
Post #40 of 94
(41128 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 6, 2003
Posts: 1348
|
In reply to: Amen, Robert. If anybody can't grok that a fellow climber is badly hurt, regardless of how it happened, and how much he, his family, friends, and those who were there need the strongest and kindest of our thoughts, then I will simply delete the innappropriate posts. Martha good idea Martha. someone has already started a whole other thread about soloing. if you have to toss in your 2 cents about it please post it here http://www.rockclimbing.com/...iewtopic.php?t=78178 lets try to leave this post to those of us who have something appropriate to say. Jason
|
|
|
|
|
vivalargo
Dec 21, 2004, 4:19 AM
Post #41 of 94
(41128 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 26, 2002
Posts: 1512
|
Throughout my entire climbing career I've made it a point to never tell other climbers how to think or feel or act, believing if I did so, someone would, in kind, require me to conform to their opinion about how to think, feel and climb. I started climbing, in part, to play my own game my own way, and the hundreds of days I spent out at Joshua Tree were typically shared with people who considered personal autonomy a sacred aspect of being a climber at that place and at that time. Another sacred aspect--at least to us–was the idea of personal mastery through progressively overcoming our own fears and limitations. To this end, almost every serious Josh climber of the era soloing hard and often. The vast majority of this soloing was done in obscurity, witnessed by a few friends or nobody at all. It was a confidential odyssey not informed by neat, mental doctrines about right and wrong and responsible and foolish for the simple reason that this soloing was a strictly personal affair that neither chased after anyone's approval or rebelled against someone else's disapproval. In short, it had nothing directly to do with anyone else at all, including our own partners and best friends. Hence, for someone to try and chime in with opinions about soloing being appropriate or insane was seen, as dismissed, as folks trying to insinuate themselves onto terrain where they were either too awed, or too restrained, to ever travel with the ease and confidence to survive this dangerous game. Furthermore, if you ever had to ask "why," there was never any future for you in the soloing arena, and only a scoundrel would try and convince you otherwise. As the great Austrian soloist, Herman Buhl, once said, "Tastes differ." And it's a sad and artless game to condemn, in the name of wisdom and responsibility, those whose tastes don't conform to your own, and to withhold any vestige of human compassion in the bargain. Compassion, as I understand it, is not a conditional virtue. You have it or you've blocked it because your mind has gotten in the way with all of it's heartless provisions. A climber might have fallen and gotten critically injured, but the person who dolls out compassion only when his criteria is met is most truly the person en extremis. John L.
|
|
|
|
|
enjoimx
Dec 21, 2004, 4:24 AM
Post #42 of 94
(41128 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 23, 2004
Posts: 378
|
I dont know if its a good idea to start deleting posts. They are entitled to their opinions regardless of whether we agree or not. This is what makes the forum educational. People will get to experience both sides of the story and decide for themselves their response to the given information. I personally feel that soloing is no more of a risk than normal leading, because usually the soloist KNOWS hes not going to fall. As steph davis put it in MOS V "Theres no way I can fall of of THIS. Period." I guess that risk is relative to each person. I also want to express my best wishes to the fallen climber and the people who saw this happen. That would be hard to watch.
|
|
|
|
|
socalclimber
Dec 21, 2004, 5:41 AM
Post #43 of 94
(41128 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 27, 2001
Posts: 2437
|
Here is an update I received from a friend of James. I am posting it with her permission: ============= >-----Original Message----- >From: Nina Seiler [mailto] >Sent: Monday, December 20, 2004 8:40 PM >To: rlf@swestsystems.com >Subject: RE: [unclassified] james lucas > > > >I don't know if you would like more info on James, I can only imagine >how many people are writing you. His dad is with him now at the >hospital. He was going into surgery this evening I believe for the >spinal injuries. Positively, he has feeling in his hands and feet but a >broken wrist and a bruised brain. He is responsive to questions and is >aware of the accident. That is about all the information that I heard >today. All we can do is have positive energy for him so he can heal. >Nina > ============= Robert
|
|
|
|
|
nwwaclimber
Dec 21, 2004, 6:08 AM
Post #44 of 94
(41128 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 28, 2004
Posts: 5
|
I just have to say... I think it is SELFISH to free-solo and inflict that kind of fall trauma on everyone who sees it and everyone who responds. Like the right to free speech still doesn't allow you to impinge on other's rights. Flame on...
|
|
|
|
|
slobmonster
Dec 21, 2004, 6:28 AM
Post #45 of 94
(41128 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 28, 2003
Posts: 1586
|
Your analogy is tastless and off-base, in addition to innacurate. To get back to basics: someone got hurt, and he needs all the support we can muster.
|
|
|
|
|
michael
Dec 21, 2004, 7:02 AM
Post #46 of 94
(41128 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 2, 2003
Posts: 204
|
I just got back from Joshua Tree and can honestly say that it is with shame I read some of the posts on this thread. Two climbers in one week had accidents at Joshua Tree. One was soloing, the other on a rope. Judgment on these people and the decisions that caused their harm are not for us to make for all of us live in glass houses. This thread is for the support and prayers offered by those that wish to extend them. If people wish to get into ethical debates, please have the courtesy of not discoloring the entire community for your selfish labels and take it out of this thread. There are plenty of other places to vent, and this is not one of them. To the friends and families of the victims, our sincere apologies for the handful that wish to act ridiculous and do understand that the vast majority of us hope for nothing but the best. Please keep us informed as best you can and if there is anything we can do to help, do not hesitate to ask. Sincerely, Michael Reardon
|
|
|
|
|
thinksinpictures
Dec 21, 2004, 7:04 AM
Post #47 of 94
(41128 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 25, 2003
Posts: 447
|
In reply to: I think it is SELFISH to free-solo and inflict that kind of fall trauma on everyone who sees it and everyone who responds. It is equally selfish to attempt to interject your own detracting opinions into a thread intended to offer positive wishes to an injured climber and his grieving family, especially in light of the emotional grief that your comments might cause James' family and everyone else who is praying for his recovery. If you care about limiting others' trauma, then listen to socalclimber's advice and post something positive for James and his family here; save your personal opinions for one of the many other threads about freesoloing.
|
|
|
|
|
adnix
Dec 21, 2004, 1:05 PM
Post #49 of 94
(41113 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 20, 2003
Posts: 584
|
In reply to: When asked, I respond with how I truly feel about it, and that reiterates the problem. The problem being, in her mind, that I would consider doing such a thing at all. Well I suppose you can't do much then. Good to hear James is doing rather well considering what happened. One of my friends took similar 50 foot fall to the ground five years back. He was in haste and didn't tie his knot properly. It's going to be a long rest but one should never give up hope.
|
|
|
|
|
michaelmay513
Dec 21, 2004, 3:18 PM
Post #50 of 94
(41113 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 4, 2002
Posts: 282
|
I'm sorry for my original post, nobody deserves to be hurt or to die while climbing. I do feel bad for the friends and family of James, and I do hope he makes a full recovery. I just hope he looks a soloing in a different light from now on.
|
|
|
|
|
|