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andrewbanandrew


Feb 11, 2005, 3:09 AM
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Beginning sport equipment
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I know this is probably the ten millionth 'beginning sport equipment' thread in the history of RC.com, but I did a fair bit of searching and never really did come to any sort of real conclusive opinion on what I needed.

I am selling my road bike and expect to get $900 for it so at this point money is no object. I will miss prancing around in spandex but I figure I can always pick up a beater for rides since I don't race anymore. Come to think of it, maybe I can sell some of my jerseys...

For some background I have been climbing since last October (well, actually last summer but only for a week, and then I sprained my ankle pretty badly). Unfortunately I do not have a car, so I have not been outside much at all. I currently boulder V3 and toprope 5.10 in the gym, and I'm hoping to take a lead class in the gym soonish. I do not intend to purchase all of this gear until after I get outside more with some friends (here's to hoping Colin will be willing to teach me, although he seems to be more into trad).

Basically it's a wishlist. I'm not gonna dump all my money down and pick it up to let it sit in my room until the summer, if that's what you're thinking. I also don't think I will buy any of this until I've felt it up in a store (that sounds kinda dirty).

I already own a harness, ATC, one locking biner, shoes, and chalkbag.

Here is what I have come up with for now:

6x Petzl Spirit/Express 17 cm QDs
6x Petzl Express Quickdraw Sling 25cm
6x Petzl Spirit Carabiner - Bent Gate
6x Petzl Spirit Carabiner - Straight Gate
2x Petzl William D Screw-lock
1x Helmet (I guess whichever feels most comfy...my skull is not a fan of blunt trauma, and I've cracked one too many bicycle helmets...)
1x Sewn Sling (cordalette)
1x Mammut Flash 10.5mm x 60m

This comes to a total of around $615 which is pretty darn expensive compared to what I've seen in my forum searches, probably because of the Petzl draws.

I bought 6 of each length of the quickdraws because they're cheaper that way, I can afford it, and I figure I will need more than 10 in the future anyway. Nobody sells premade 25cm Petzl draws.

And yes, the cordalette/locking biners are there for toproping.

I have a few questions:

There was much debate about mixing up medium and long draws. Some people said 'get all long ones' to which others replied 'that's a pound and a half more I have to carry.' I personally don't care too much about weight, but are there any instances in which a longer quickdraw just becomes awkward to use? If not I think I might just get all 25cm draws.

I'm trying to find the non-dry duodess version of that rope but I can't seem to find it for sale anywhere...I do not think I will need a dry rope seeing as I will probably only climb in the spring and summer, although I do live in Seattle so what do I know. I couldn't really tell from my forum searches if it was necessary. Also, I could go with a different rope and potentially cut the cost by around $80 (Mammut seems to carry a premium at every shop I've looked at online). I was thinking about the Bluewater 10.2mm Eliminator?


anykineclimb


Feb 11, 2005, 3:22 AM
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Looks like a pretty good list. you should be able to get the draws cheaper if you buy them as sets., just shop around a litlle. most of the online places will do that for you.
were you looking at 12 draws? because it only shows a total of 12 biners and 12 runners/ quickdraws. Oh I see now..
you should just buy the 12 draws now. not many routes are only 6 bolts. and what if you plan to set up a toprope for your friends?

The different length draws are a good idea. I have 4 long(9-10") and the rest are about 6"

Petzl spirits only come in straight and bent gate- no wires

Mammut makes great ropes, but the Bluewater ones are good too.


andrewbanandrew


Feb 11, 2005, 3:37 AM
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durr yeah the wire thing is typo, my bad.

I can't find Petzl draws as sets anywhere, but they are $1 a piece cheaper if I get 6 or more (that's why both the draws and the biners are in sets of six).

I'm guessing the ratio of the # of shorter:longer draws varies from location to location, eh? I haven't been outside much so I suppose I'll ask the locals and see what they've experienced when they're at the crags.


Partner gunksgoer


Feb 11, 2005, 4:29 AM
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id reccomend only getting 3 long quickdraws, and 9 medium ones. On many sport routes you wont need the extra length, and longer draws are more annoying to carry. then, if u eventually get into trad, 3 long draws are a good ammount to supplement tripled trad draws.


whatsupdoc


Feb 11, 2005, 5:23 AM
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In reply to:
I am selling my road bike and expect to get $900 for it so at this point money is no object. I will miss prancing around in spandex

You really don't have to stop prancing around in spandex if you're a sport climber.


salathiel


Feb 11, 2005, 6:03 AM
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I apologize in advance for the blatantly sexist nature of the comments that follow; although they will be equal opportunity in nature.

I love in when sport climbers refer to their "racks" I think it's soooooo cute. Like Calista Flockhart referring to her "rack" or a guy hung like a vienna sausage referring to his...well you get it.

Seriously, buy as many quick draws as you can afford. 15 will get you through almost any Sport route in the world. Easy on the long ones, as they are more annoying than necessary. I would hold off on super long slings until you start tackling those giant roofs.

Also, keep the spandex, but you may want to get some vienna sausages... or a cucumber.

Have fun and welcome to the sport!

Blur


labrat0065


Feb 11, 2005, 7:23 AM
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you needa t least 12 draws, routes get long, and especially if you want to TR a sport route, you need quickdraws 2 for the top.

petzl makes some great gear, especially for the bolt end of the draw, but i would suggest to you, since you are making your own draws 2 things, make half of them (6) top biner (bolt end) a straight gate petzl spirit, but make the bottom biner (rope end) a black diamond wiregate modified D biner. heres why, because the wiregate is easier in my opinion to clip than a bent gate regular biner, it will cut a lot of weight, and it leaves the beefy petzel for the bolt end and the black diamond wich is light and strong for your rope.

personnaly i would then suggest that you make your other 6 draws, with the same biner configuration, but instead of a dogbone, use a 24" runner wrapped 3 X that will be the same length as a draw, but will allow you to extend funny placements, straighten rope line, and most ipmortantly, save your ass if you ever hope to aspire to become a trad climber.


mistertyler


Feb 11, 2005, 8:04 AM
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I don't do much sport-climbing, but I personally don't know why people use dogbones at all. Mammut floss slings are light, can be shortened if necessary, and make great trad draws should you decide to get into trad down the road.

Also, not to thread-jack, but are there any other benefits to using bent-gates other than the opinion that they're easier to clip? The risk of back-clipping just doesn't seem worth it....


blakester


Feb 11, 2005, 8:08 AM
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Buy 12 of the cheapest quickdraws you can find (under $10 each) or make your own using on-sale carabiners and a few different lengths of quickdraw slings. Then get a 60m rope, about 10.3 mm (edelweiss Axis Dry for $115 for example). Pick your odds and ends (cordalette, lockers) whereever you see a sale. Online retailers are a good call.

Spend extra $400 on climbing trips.

I don't think the extra money is worth the benefits of what the higher priced QDs etc will bring.

P.S. if you live in seattle you should consider trad anyway, and in that case I believe there is a benefit to being more selective in your gear purchases.


rangertau


Feb 11, 2005, 8:17 AM
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Yeah! What Blakester said. As long as the draws are stamped CE, they are good to go. People who buy really cool looking color coordinated draws don't get it. It's not how you look climbing - it's how you climb! Save the money for gas and ramen, and go climb with the mix-matched set of draws. BTW folks, there is no such thing as a "rack" of QD's. It is a "set" of QD's. There is only such a thing as a "rack" of gear, specifically trad gear. Just my little elitist jab! :D


caughtinside


Feb 11, 2005, 8:51 AM
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In reply to:
Buy 12 of the cheapest quickdraws you can find (under $10 each) or make your own using on-sale carabiners and a few different lengths of quickdraw slings.

I disagree. Generally speaking those really cheap draws have super short, stiff bones and the biners suck to clip.

But, on the other hand, you don't need petzl spirits for everything either. They are really nice biners, but they're pretty expensive. I prefer hotwires on the rope end.

As for draw length, the 9 medium 3 long seems like a good call. And I try not to spend more than $120 on a rope if I can help it. There's always a deal out there somewhere.


dingus


Feb 11, 2005, 9:10 AM
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Ditto wiregates instead of bent. I have several pretzel bents and I prefer to use wire gates for the rope clip in every circumstance. I think wire gates have *almost* obsoleted bents, but I'm not sport climbing guru, grain of salt and all that. It is much easier for a bent gate biner to unclip itself from the rope during a fall.

More to your purchasing strategy... you know what you want basically, other than refinement. Sounds like you're hooked into the conduit of climbing, there is no turning back. So...

Start your purchasing now. Or rather, start looking for those deals, clearence sales, etc... and buy piecemeal as you go. Make it a policy not to buy things at retail. Don't snoot your nose at a friend who may need to unload some slightly used draws either, as long as you trust the seller to tell you the thruth about their history, ie a friend.

Some internet sites occasionally offer 'free shipping' and if they are out of state, no sales tax either. That can amount to 20% or more savings and if you score something on sale in addition, you can get as low as 50% of retail, no tax, no shipping SaWeet!

But you have to constantly scour both stores and internet sites to do this and you will occasionally pull the trigger on a bad deal... accept that and don't beat yourself up too much if you get some shit piece of gear you don't like.

Some people simply have to have the best or what they perceive as the best and they tend to buy at full retail. S'cool, but I recommend you at least consider the cheap bastard route... you will certainly have enough money left over for a new pair of pants, haha.

We climbers gave up lycra long before my spare tire rendered them Walmart on FoodStamp Friday Bad Taste, ya know what I mean??? CRACK of Dawn and all that, haha.

DMT


johnathon78


Feb 11, 2005, 9:14 AM
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$900 could get you a decent/reliable car. I mean, I could'nt imagine getting to the crag without my Jeep. Hence, without getting there, the climbing gear will be no good! N E way, there are much cheaper alternatives to what you had listed. Just because the biners or draws are more expensive doesent mean that they are any better. Petzl gear is expensive, and still good. Try shopping around for packages. I bought all my Metolius qd's in a set and received 10% off for every 8 I bought. And they work great! And when getting into Sport Climbing, 6 draws usually doesent cut it. I have 12 and is sometimes just enough. As long as a draw is CE certified, it means it is more than enough needed to catch your ass. Try the following sites for cheaper draws:

www.pagangear.com
www.gearexpress.com
www.metoliusclimbing.com
www.bdel.com
www.rei.com
www.acmeclimbing.com


sublimeclimb


Feb 11, 2005, 10:04 AM
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I agree with johnathan about the metolius draws. I bought them because they were cheap, but after climbing with other draws i find that I often prefer them. I got 6 draws for $65, not a bad deal, and the slings are a good length. I did fall in love with these petzl wiregates that have a super sweet thumb catch, but they are expensive and hard to find unless you search the web. There's alot of good advice here, so I'll just emphasize a point that someone else brought up: the nice thing about sport climbing to me is that it doesnt drain your pocket to start doing it. Look for good deals, buy gear as needed, and spend the extra money on exploring all of the awesome places you can now climb. Enjoy


outdoorsie


Feb 11, 2005, 10:10 AM
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Two more things you should seriously consider adding to your list:

2 spectra daisy chains, two small locking biners.

You're gonna need to get your gear off the top of the climb when you're done with it. I know some people clean anchors with only one quickdraw, but for my piece of mind, if I'm going off belay at the top of a 100ft route, I want two points to anchor in and two lockers on those points. Also, daisies/slings are lot more adjustable and comfortable, and if you're anything like me, the first couple times you clean an anchor, it might take a while. Best to be flexible about your position at the top of the route.

Also, I agree with the "cheeper draws are better" philosophy. Petzl spirts look snazy without the teeth, but I've never really known anybody who had trouble clipping because of the tooth on a biner. I think the spirits are mostly a marketing ploy aimed at getting noobs to spend twice as much on gear because they don't know any better.

Just my two cents.


caughtinside


Feb 11, 2005, 10:24 AM
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In reply to:
Two more things you should seriously consider adding to your list:

2 spectra daisy chains, two small locking biners.

You're gonna need to get your gear off the top of the climb when you're done with it. I know some people clean anchors with only one quickdraw, but for my piece of mind, if I'm going off belay at the top of a 100ft route, I want two points to anchor in and two lockers on those points. Also, daisies/slings are lot more adjustable and comfortable, and if you're anything like me, the first couple times you clean an anchor, it might take a while. Best to be flexible about your position at the top of the route.

Overkill.

daisys will just add more expense, and bulk on your harness. Just take extra draws, and chain draws from the anchor to your harness while cleaning. You are more versatile on a sport climb with more draws, as opposed to daisys.

Oh, and Dingus has the best post on this thread by far. Can't go wrong with his advice.


mtman


Feb 11, 2005, 10:37 AM
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i also agree with the metolious draws they are cheep and work well and easy to clip. the petzl qd are more than you really need and are just a waste of money. as said earlier a daisy chain is a good idea but you probly only need one to start with. also to save money you should buy webbing insted of runners for top rope, it is cheeper usualy $ .10/foot and you can customize sizes and it is not a big loss if you have to leave it for a rapell ancor, it is a lot cheeper than leving a runner

mtman


Partner csgambill


Feb 11, 2005, 10:52 AM
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In reply to:

Overkill.

daisys will just add more expense, and bulk on your harness. Just take extra draws, and chain draws from the anchor to your harness while cleaning. You are more versatile on a sport climb with more draws, as opposed to daisys.

Oh, and Dingus has the best post on this thread by far. Can't go wrong with his advice.

I definitely agree with the overkill statement. I just use a single locker and a Blue Water - Spectra runner (the shorter the better) to clean. Nice, easy and light.

I have a set of 12 BD Positron draws and positively love them. They're light, plus I love the no notch feature on the keylock. It helps make cleaning really easy. You get almost the same features as the Petzl Spirits, not quite as pretty though, and while they're not cheap they'll save a couple bucks compared to the Spirits.


stardrivin


Feb 11, 2005, 10:59 AM
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I will miss prancing around in spandex but ........

you don't have to stop wearing spandex, you know. i hear, its making a come back, especially among the sport elite


adamtd


Feb 11, 2005, 11:16 AM
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Sport rack is easy, 12 complete quick draws, 2 shoulder length slings, 4 locking biners, a rope, harness, shoes, belay device, and the ever so important trusted partner.If you want to go all out, remember to bring the hot girlfriend along to root for you and you pump out at the crux. Never underestimate the power of not wanting to fall in front of a beautiful woman to get you up the rock.


adamtd


Feb 11, 2005, 11:17 AM
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Sport rack is easy, 12 complete quick draws, 2 shoulder length slings, 4 locking biners, a rope, harness, shoes, belay device, and the ever so important trusted partner.If you want to go all out, remember to bring the hot girlfriend along to root for you and you pump out at the crux. Never underestimate the power of not wanting to fall in front of a beautiful woman to get you up the rock.


chemicalclimber


Feb 11, 2005, 11:19 AM
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Another plug for metolius draws (7"). The people who complain about weight increase between 5 and 7 inch draws are smokin' something, the difference between a 5" metolius QD and a 7 inch is only 3 grams! (came right off the metolius website) Or make your own with straight gate positrons on the bolt end and wiregates on the other. That is my suggestion anyway, find biners you like, try them out first. Seriously though, screw the petzls.

When I'm cleaning an anchor I tie in with a PAS hooked to both bolts and an extra runner hooked to one, all with lockers. I don't take any chance, since that would just be the dumbest way to die, coming upclipped while cleaning an anchor....

happy climbing :)


scottquig


Feb 11, 2005, 11:39 AM
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I've lived in Seattle for most of my life...you're definately going to want a dry rope. Even when it's not raining out, the ground is usually damp (unless you're going to be climbing mostly in Eastern Wa). In the rainy city, dry is neccesary.


andrewbanandrew


Feb 11, 2005, 11:59 AM
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Yeah, I don't actually plan on buying draws until I try them, so that may all change.


andrewbanandrew


Feb 11, 2005, 12:01 PM
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In reply to:
Yeah! What Blakester said. As long as the draws are stamped CE, they are good to go. People who buy really cool looking color coordinated draws don't get it. It's not how you look climbing - it's how you climb! Save the money for gas and ramen, and go climb with the mix-matched set of draws. BTW folks, there is no such thing as a "rack" of QD's. It is a "set" of QD's. There is only such a thing as a "rack" of gear, specifically trad gear. Just my little elitist jab! :D

forgive me it was late

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