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davidji
Feb 17, 2005, 5:46 AM
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Doing it with one leg tucked, as they show there is a good way to work up to it. Doing it with your legs apart and extended is another good way.
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rgold
Feb 17, 2005, 7:00 AM
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A few comments on the article:
(1) In the tucked front lever photo, the person's back is rounded. One wants to try for a straight back.
(2) Pullups in the tucked front lever position are a good exercise for levers and climbing strength in general.
(3) The one leg up position is often referred to as a "stagged" front lever. Again the demonstrator hasn't achieved a straight back in the photo.
(4) Progessions are possible by varying the amount of "stag." Begin with the knee as close as possible to the chest, and work the toe down as you get stronger.
(5) Work both legs stagged to avoid strength imbalances. A good routine is a tucked pullup or two, extend left leg (right leg stagged) and hold for 3-5 secs, return to tucked position, extend right leg (left leg stagged) and hold for 3-5 secs, return to tucked position, do a few tucked pullups, lower down and release. Make sure back doesn't round and don't let a pike develop.
(6) It is a big step from a solid stagged front lever to a real front lever with both legs extended. To bridge this gap, once stagged levers are solid, work on "straddle" levers---both legs extended but splayed as wide as possible. This is also the right moment to use latex surgical tubing assistance.
(7) An excellent and demanding exercise is to combine front (or straddled or stagged) levers with muscle-ups. One does a muscle-up, but lowers to a front lever, not a hang, and then goes back up to a muscle-up. Doing these assisted with latex surgical tubing allows for more reps.
(7) Don't forget that Gill developed one-arm levers---the "ordinary" front lever is by no means the ultimate.
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coldclimb
Feb 17, 2005, 9:47 AM
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Quite useful posts, both of you. Thanks guys! :)
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greenmachineman7
Feb 17, 2005, 11:55 AM
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In reply to: This is also the right moment to use latex surgical tubing assistance.
Yikes.
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tyson16v
Feb 17, 2005, 6:49 PM
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nice and helpful
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bradj
Feb 18, 2005, 2:27 PM
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rgold- That was a harsh review of my article. I have a couple of comments and a question. I think that the front lever is quite an accomplishment for most people (especially people who are heavier and/or have longer limbs) and calling it "ordinary" is a bit degrading to those attempting to accomplish it.
What front lever work have you done that you would not consider "ordinary"?
I have done weighted front levers (weighted at the feet and the waist), front levers hanging from 2 separate rafters, front levers hanging from 2 rafters with only 3 fingers on each rafter, front levers hanging from a single rafter, one arm front levers and one arm-one finger front levers.
Brad
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anykineclimb
Feb 18, 2005, 2:39 PM
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Wow Brad, you've been on this site for over 2 years and you finaly post to my thread?!
Thank you for the article, I found it very informative and useful. Like I mentioned, I'm working on the front lever and this is some of the best info I've found out there on progressing to it.
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bradj
Feb 18, 2005, 3:01 PM
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anykineclimb- Thanks for the compliment on the article. I am not a climber but enjoy visiting (lurking) the technique and training forum as I enjoy bodyweight strength training. I have absolutely nothing to add as I have no idea how one should train for rock climbing. Keep working on the front lever!
Brad
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tyson16v
Feb 18, 2005, 6:34 PM
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bradj,
dont worry about that. there are always "super certified climber/sports medicine/ultimate training gods" here on RC.com and they will always shut down your technique if they disagree with it. nice article, the front lever truly helps in your climbing.
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rgold
Feb 18, 2005, 7:15 PM
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In reply to: rgold- That was a harsh review of my article.
It wasn't a review, it was just a few comments. I'm very sorry if you found them "harsh;" my only intention was to clarify proper form and add a few points you didn't mention that would help people to learn the lever. Of the seven comments I made, only (1) and (3) contain anything that could remotely be considered critical, and those comments are factual observations about form which are beyond contention. Everything else, the substantial bulk of the post, is an attempt to supply additional helpful information for those who are interested.
In reply to: I have a couple of comments and a question. I think that the front lever is quite an accomplishment for most people (especially people who are heavier and/or have longer limbs) and calling it "ordinary" is a bit degrading to those attempting to accomplish it.
I used "ordinary" to distinguish the front lever from the extraordinary one-arm front lever. The comment was meant to indicate that there is much one might continue to work on even after mastering a front lever.
Moreover, although the front lever is hard to do, it is nonetheless an ordinary skill for gymnasts. I put ordinary in quotes to indicate precisely the fact that what may be ordinary for a specialized subgroup can at the same time be quite extraordinary for others. For example, the fact that climbing 5.10 nowadays is an "ordinary" level of achievement does not mean that it isn't hard to reach that level.
In reply to: What front lever work have you done that you would not consider "ordinary"?
Absolutely none, unless you want to count the triple front lever done years ago at a rowdy Vulgarian party by Jim McCarthy, myself, and Kevin Bein off a doorjamb at the top of a flight of stairs. After several seconds, McCarthy's hands, which were supporting more than 400 lbs, blew off the door jamb and the three of us fell down the entire flight of stairs. Fortunately for Jim and I, Kevin was on the bottom and so absorbed most of the multiple impacts. Apparently, a clever if not entirely legal premedication regimen saved us from serious harm.
In reply to: I have done weighted front levers (weighted at the feet and the waist), front levers hanging from 2 separate rafters, front levers hanging from 2 rafters with only 3 fingers on each rafter, front levers hanging from a single rafter, one arm front levers and one arm-one finger front levers.
Cool. Way way harder than anything I ever did. Way harder than anything I even thought about trying to do. You ought to put some pictures of those in your article too.
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dough
Feb 18, 2005, 8:24 PM
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In reply to: What work have you done that you would not consider "ordinary"? Brad
Brad, you must understand that Richard Goldstone is a Kahuna.
Just ask John Gill.
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tyson16v
Feb 18, 2005, 8:47 PM
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[quote="rgold
Absolutely none, unless you want to count the triple front lever done years ago at a rowdy Vulgarian party by Jim McCarthy, myself, and Kevin Bein off a doorjamb at the top of a flight of stairs. After several seconds, McCarthy's hands, which were supporting more than 400 lbs, blew off the door jamb and the three of us fell down the entire flight of stairs. Fortunately for Jim and I, Kevin was on the bottom and so absorbed most of the multiple impacts. Apparently, a clever if not entirely legal premedication regimen saved us from serious harm.
that is hillarious. i would pay money to see that. :lol:
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rgold
Feb 18, 2005, 8:56 PM
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Those interested in learning front levers (and planches) might find this article useful too:
www.dragondoor.com/articler/mode3/229/.
To see good examples of proper form, look at this and, of course, at Gill.
As for the one arm front lever, once again there is Gill.
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tyson16v
Feb 18, 2005, 11:54 PM
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i have seen and used many things off of that site. very good information.
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bradj
Feb 19, 2005, 3:16 AM
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Thanks Tyson! rgold-your un"ordinary" front lever experience is very impressive and explains a lot;) Gill's front lever's are great and always listen to Coach Sommer re: gymnastics training instead of me as he is a respected gymnastics coach.
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pushsendnorcal
Feb 19, 2005, 3:28 AM
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Its the rafter man, brad.
So you're a climber, a saw the video of you on the gripboard, very impressive. Hows the double body weight hang on the rafters going?
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bradj
Feb 19, 2005, 4:03 AM
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pushsendnorcal- Thanks! I am not a climber but I enjoy reading about climber's training. I am 15 pounds away from the double bodyweight rafter pull-up.
Brad
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anykineclimb
Feb 19, 2005, 4:15 AM
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I didn't think my post would get this much attention!
Thanks Bradj and Rgold for your imput aand the additional links, although i've visited both dragondoor and crossfit several times.
Bradj, a question on bodyweight workouts. I've read and used Pavel's and Scrapper's workouts, Is there any you prefer over another? Others?
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bradj
Feb 19, 2005, 12:59 PM
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I have never used Scrapper's workouts but I have only heard positive things. I think that Pavel is brilliant and I use his low rep, high tension approach almost exclusively.
Brad
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csgambill
Feb 19, 2005, 1:40 PM
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I wish I'd seen that back in my gymnastics days
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fluxus
Feb 24, 2005, 8:42 PM
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I was trying really hard to not say anything but I just have to chime in.
I have read many bits on this activity and I have never read anyone who correctly understood body tension, and or the front lever exercise.
without looking it up or having a smart person help you can any of you front lever advocates give an accurate kinesiological description of what is called body tension in climbing and do the same for a front level?
Perhaps choose a photo of a climber in action and then give an accurate description of what is happening in their body in the photo.
I'll bet you a bottle of stout that no one can.
peace
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rgold
Feb 24, 2005, 9:10 PM
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There are really two questions behind fluxus' challenge. One of them is whether front levers are helpful for body tension, the other is whether they are useful for climbing in some other way.
As for the first question, I don't think there is much relation between body tension (on overhanging rock) and front levers, because body tension involves pulling with the toes and stabilizing the rest of the torso while doing this, and these motions are only tangentially strengthened, if at all, by front lever work.
The second question is more interesting, and for that I have an indirect answer. After hanging out in gyms with all kinds of athletes for more than 40 years, it is my (admittedly anecdotal) observation that, except of course for gymnasts, there are no athletes who are more nearly able to do front levers than climbers. In other words, climbers are doing something that trains front lever muscles, and if this is so, then it is not unreasonable to assume that training front lever muscles will do something for climbing.
My gut sense is that levering comes into play more on vertical ground when the climber is forced to use very low handholds. I know of a boulder problem that requires me to use the same handolds on a very slightly overhanging wall until my hands are at thigh level and elbows are just about locked. In this position, the arms still have to develop a force component that will keep me from going over backwards, and this is front lever strength.
It is reasonable to ask whether training such gymnastic strengths is useful for climbing. I think the answer is probably not very, given that one can do many more specific types of training. But some of us do these things simply because we find the challenge of mastering difficult physical feats more engaging then mind-numbing repetitions on some weight machine or repeated intervals on the same climb or boulder. We don't actually care all that much whether it is the most effective way to improve climbing strength---although it is certainly a hell of a lot better than doing nothing---because we enjoy mastering something hard. Climbers, of all people, should be able to grasp the attraction, even if they conclude they have better things to do with their personal exercise time.
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treehugger
Feb 24, 2005, 10:01 PM
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Fluxus made me think a little bit about this, and my analysis follows.
Please excuse my meandering response, I haven't written about physics or forces in a decade.
Tension is created by opposing forces. Tension in a wire, for example, isn't inherent to the wire itself, but is created by the forces pulling the ends in opposite directions.
"Body tension" then would be created by the same physics. The first force is gravity, and the opposing force is generated by muscle contractions. In the case of the front lever, it seems that all of the force needed to create tension is created by muscle contractions.
I don't remember my HS physics hardly at all, but it would seem common sense that the angle between the gravity vector and the muscular force vector would affect how much force is needed to hold the body in the desired position. At 90 degrees to vertical (the front lever position) the greatest force is required to maintain position. At 0 degrees (hanging and inverted) zero force is required.
When climbing anything less steep than a roof parallel to the ground, less force (aka core muscle strength) is required to keep the same body tension as in a front lever. Not only is the angle between forces less than 90 degrees, but the climber is able to use his or her feet to assist in creating tension. This brings the legs into play, which makes the whole deal a bit easier.
Despite the fact that a climber on an overhanging wall has an easier time creating the necessary tension to hold the body into the wall, and is able to transmit the force through feet as well as hands, it again seems common sense that being able to generate as much tension as possible will always be an advantage.
In other words, although you do not need the strength to sucessfully execute a front lever to be a good climber, it certainly can't hurt.
Plus it's fun.
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jgill
Feb 25, 2005, 12:22 AM
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Just a historical comment: when I learned the front lever, back in the mid 1950s, It was more a result of my involvement in competitive-style rope climbing (a former gymnastic event), than in my activities as a rock climber. The same comment holds true for one-arm pull-ups as well.
I used the lever on the still rings, of course, but you lean back as you climb the rope and that naturally induces front lever type strength. 8^)
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