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onbelay_osu
Feb 18, 2005, 7:53 PM
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so i was climbing a while back on a scary 5.8 (it was scary okay!) when i backed down and lowered my partner did the same thing....(we are both competent leaders....cabable of a 5.10 trad lead, i just don't like 30 feet of runout slab face climbing i am a crack climber) anyways we left 8 cams in the wall planning to go back and get them in the morning, the sun was setting as we backed down for the last time) well when we got to the wall the next day someone was on our route using our gear.... my question is how many of ya would clip and use gear, let alone climb a route that had gear in it, that you did not place?
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cchildre
Feb 18, 2005, 8:05 PM
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I would! I would probably clean all the gear too, if you didn't show up to claim it, and it would fall onto my rack. Not advocating gear snagging but if it is on the wall unattended, especially overnight then it is mostly fair game. That said, I would be sure to remain in the area and watch for the owner to appear to return said gear. My reason, "If I don't snag it then the next guy surely will and that guy would probably split ASAP to retain his booty, I on the other hand would first look to return the gear, second hoard my booty" This is all also dependent on which crag I was climbing at and the local guidelines. The little kid in me thinks how cool would that gear look hanging on my rack, and the semi-responsible adult chimes in and reminds me how pissed I would be if that was me getting cleaned out. I see both sides of the argument and feel for both. What 5.8 was it? Were you down in the Wichita's?
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csproul
Feb 18, 2005, 8:09 PM
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You're lucky it was still there at all! If all the cams were at a local crag, I may clip the gear on the way up but probably would not take them. My question is why did you have to leave 8 cams to retreat from a route? One anchor should have done it. If this was just a bail anchor, then I'd be more likely to take the gear. If this was in the backcountry and it looked like left gear, then it would definitely be gone. Taking the gear might not be right, but you definitely cannot expect others to not climb the route or use the gear.
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j_ung
Feb 18, 2005, 8:12 PM
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Assuming the gear looked OK and the placement was solid, sure, I'd clip it. I clip fixed stoppers all the time.
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thegreytradster
Feb 19, 2005, 12:14 AM
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Clip it so the second wouldn't miss recovering any booty!
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tradmanclimbs
Feb 19, 2005, 1:10 AM
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once you leave the crag, any trad gear that you leave on a climb is officialy booty to be recovered and kept by anyone who finds it first. The ony hard and fast exception to this rule is if there was an accident resulting in serious injury. any gear from an accident scene that was left by the victims or the rescuers is to be cleaned and returned to to local SAR and the victims or surviveing relatives. If you back off due to fear or lack of strength or bad weather then the next person or persons to climb the rt ownes your gear. period 8^) You may sometimes recover you lost booty gear by groveling and paying homage to the climber or climbers that now have possesion of your booty gear in the form of guifts of wine, women, beer, fine whisky or strong herbs 8^)
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slavetogravity
Feb 19, 2005, 1:34 AM
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In reply to: my question is how many of ya would clip and use gear, let alone climb a route that had gear in it, that you did not place? Do it all the time, I call it sport climbing. Seriously though, after quick inspection to see that the placement was proper or a slight adjustment, I'd clip into the gear with out a care in the world. In many areas, Fixed or hopelessly-stuck gear is found all the time. I recall climbing Epinephrine in Red Rocks and passing and clipping several hopelessly-stuck cams. In one instance the stuck cam was a number 4 Camelot. You could imagine my excitement when looking at snagging a free Camelot, my relief that it was there to prevent a serious run-out, and then my despair when I realised I had no hope of extracting it. Personally it's the old rusty pins and bolts that people clip in to, blissfully ignorant of the risks they're taking when they do, that consern me.
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joshklingbeil
Feb 19, 2005, 10:08 AM
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I would try to pull it out and put it on my rack so that the second isn't like "Yo thanks for leaving in all that booty for me. Check out my cams bro." And I would say "rules are we split it 50/50" If I seen who I belongs to I would give it up unless your a dick sayin something like " What the hell do you think your doing removing my gear asshole." I would say" It's my gear now beotch. But I would give it back once I got back on the ground if had mellowed out.
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anykineclimb
Feb 19, 2005, 10:44 AM
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In reply to: so i was climbing a while back on a scary 5.8 (it was scary okay!) when i backed down and lowered my partner did the same thing....(we are both competent leaders....cabable of a 5.10 trad lead, i just don't like 30 feet of runout slab face climbing i am a crack climber) anyways we left 8 cams in the wall planning to go back and get them in the morning, the sun was setting as we backed down for the last time) well when we got to the wall the next day someone was on our route using our gear.... So how did you leave 8 cams on "30 feet of runout slab"? If it were run out, there'd be no gear there! and from the way you descrie it, it would have been bolted.
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moof
Feb 19, 2005, 10:55 AM
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He who pulls excalibur from the rock is king! Ethic amongst my crowd is that if the leader wants it as booty he cleans it. If he merely clips it, then the second has the right to frig it out for themselves or leave it. Once you walk away from the cliff, anything you leave on the rock becomes booty. Generally, for much more than a single piece of gear, it is courteous to make an attempt to let the owner find you, but it is courtesy only and it is not an ethics violation not to try. I don't understand the 8 cams either. Last dude should have built a mini-anchor of 2-3 pieces and cleaned the rest. It is rude to assume that just becuase you left your crap on a route that nobody else should climb it. See also: Pack it in. Pack it out.
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kman
Feb 19, 2005, 4:20 PM
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I'd probably say something like "YAHOO...some dumb used 8 cams to bail off of this route BOOTY". It would find a new home on my rack. If some one came back and claimed it I would gladly return it. If I ran across a post on the net that said there was an accident can I please have the cams back I would return it. If no one claimed it I would keep it.
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justafurnaceman
Feb 19, 2005, 5:01 PM
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It seems like this is a HUGE topic for everyone. Sport climbing people are nagging about people taking their stuff and the general consensus is that quickdraws are off limits to taking? But if you're Trad climbing it's free game?? In construction if you finish for the day and are returning you put everything in a corner. People may use it but do return it. But if you leave a hammer or other tools there for awhile WITHOUT explanation, it's as good as gone. If you ask around for it you MAY get it back (most often by paying homage). SO.... is Trad different than Sport in terms of what's booty and what's not?
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euroford
Feb 19, 2005, 5:49 PM
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In reply to: SO.... is Trad different than Sport in terms of what's booty and what's not? i don't think so, but sporto's don't necessarily agree with me on that. if you walk away from any single solitary piece of gear stuck onto a technical route its free game for the next team who climbs that route. if you get it back, thank your lucky stars becouse you don't deserve it. i'm not trying to be a dick, but you BAILED, and part of the decision of choosing to bail is giving up gear to the booty gods. if i was you, i woulda aided, groveled, pulled on gear, wakled around and rapped off, whatever, to make sure i left with my rack at the end of the day.
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jakedatc
Feb 19, 2005, 5:56 PM
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sport and trad are different ... ethics included leaving cams on a 5.8 slab is alot different than having project draws on a 5.13 roof leaving cams is not a smart idea.. as every trad climber that has ever chimed into a fixed draw thread says that any gear left is booty .. if you are going to bail then bail off a hex and some old nuts that you wouldnt mind losing instead of your whole rack of cams . sport climbers dont bail off of a whole quick draw.. they throw and old biner and clean the rest
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esallen
Feb 19, 2005, 6:22 PM
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I pray for the day when I find 8 cams at my neighborhood crag.
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chalkfree
Feb 19, 2005, 6:48 PM
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No kidding, my rack is too pititful to be worried about how it came to be there, Again if there was an accident or a GREAT reason for leaving it you'd get it back, if there wasn't I'd clip it, clean it and keep it. Proper groveling might allow for you to get it back, and when I say groveling I mean GROVELING.
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onbelay_osu
Feb 19, 2005, 8:42 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: so i was climbing a while back on a scary 5.8 (it was scary okay!) when i backed down and lowered my partner did the same thing....(we are both competent leaders....cabable of a 5.10 trad lead, i just don't like 30 feet of runout slab face climbing i am a crack climber) anyways we left 8 cams in the wall planning to go back and get them in the morning, the sun was setting as we backed down for the last time) well when we got to the wall the next day someone was on our route using our gear.... So how did you leave 8 cams on "30 feet of runout slab"? If it were run out, there'd be no gear there! and from the way you descrie it, it would have been bolted. i did not leave the gear in the runout....i got spooked cause i had to face 30 foot of slabby runout....it was a crack to a bolted line...i finished the crack and got spooked at the face climbing...i know this was a noOb thing to do but it happened....we got all our gear back i was just wondering if you came across gear on a route would you pinkpoint the send or rip the gear?
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justafurnaceman
Feb 19, 2005, 9:54 PM
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Redpoint or pinkpoint? isn't that just splitting hairs?? Climbing mag gave "Jeff" Beaulieu a "pinkpoint" because he pre-protected La Zebree before climbing it. Hell!! that's dang good climbing. He certainly got my respect. I couldn't do that!
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jakedatc
Feb 19, 2005, 10:27 PM
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Preplaced trad gear is a tad different than preplaced draws ... pinkpoint i'd say is correct for that i mean come on.. if you're going to bid for one of the hardest trad lines.. at least carry a rack and pretend you're climbing trad http://www.drtopo.com/quebec/zebree.html got tape anyone?
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tradmanclimbs
Feb 20, 2005, 12:05 AM
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Everyone here has pretty much schooled you on the fact that Yes we wlill clip your gear and then we Will Keep it :D
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boltdude
Feb 20, 2005, 12:46 AM
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In reply to: we are both competent leaders....cabable of a 5.10 trad lead, i just don't like 30 feet of runout slab face climbing i am a crack climber Runout face climbing IS trad climbing. So you backed off one 5.8 trad lead, although you may have led 5.10 cracks. Don't worry about it, one of the main ways you live to become a better climber is knowing when to back off. And a guy I knew fell 40' to the deck by retreating off a single nut which popped right after he pulled out the backup cam. And, personally, if I found that much booty on one climb - I'd assume there had been a serious accident, collect all the gear, and contact the local SAR teams.
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bloquer
Feb 20, 2005, 1:26 AM
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If you can lead 5.10 probably should have been able to down lead 8 and collect your gear........anyway its a huge amount of gear to leave...but who knows? If you got off the climb safe and learned something- your way ahead no matter what! Lucky the gear was still there.
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gunksgoer
Feb 20, 2005, 2:46 AM
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i would have lowered down to the ground (assuming this was one pitch) and left my rope hanging with the gear, tied in a loop so it didnt come out. i think that if for some reason u need to bail and come back the next day, leaving your rope up with the gear definatly sends the message you will be back pronto, and there was some real good reason you had to bail. if u dont leave your rope then it sends the messege u just gave up and wont be back. ive never had to leave anything like that, but ive heard of people doing just this, and it makes sense.
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tradmanclimbs
Feb 20, 2005, 3:07 AM
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If you have been arround awhile (20+years of climbing) you can get a pretty good feel as to the circumstances of the booty gear. small bit of cord threadded through a fixed mank pin backed up with a small frayed stopper and ratty looking leaver biner means a competant party got rained off. six shiny new pieces with a few brand spanking new lockers evey 50 meters means the newbies heard the thunder, smelt the lightning, crapped their pants and sunk half the rack into each anchor :lol: bunch of other scenarios that are pretty easy to read but the one described by the OP might just baffel me :? I might conclude that a couple of newbies got really stoned and forgot they had all those cams on the climb 8^)
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andrewscott
Feb 20, 2005, 3:07 AM
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if you leave your rope too you may want camp out under the climb. I know some folks who would take the rope and the cams. It may not be nice but some people suck and thats just the fact of the matter
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