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chairmanmeow


Mar 1, 2005, 8:42 PM
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Oh, and Ron, does the route count as hammerless if the FAist carries hammer down? :P


dmckj


Mar 1, 2005, 9:22 PM
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Once again, Dangle takes a simple and unambiguous declarative statement and, through his wizardry, turns it into conspiracy breeding ground. (remember folks...now I'll be accused of saying something I didn't)

Notice, I did exactly what I said I did....no drilling, used no pitons, used no bolts. I then, in parentheses, put the word 'hamerless' knowing Dangle's passion for word games, indicating that hammerless would logically relate to NOT using a hammer.

So now Dangle trapped himself in the greatest illogical statement of all. First HE claimed to have 'done' the first hammerless wall,

In reply to:
Who did Zion's first HAMMERLESS wall

(answer...himself)

and now he claims that to have done a new route hammerless means you don't even have a hammer in your pack. That would logically lead me to conclude that doing a 'hammerless' ascent is not actually hammerless if you have a hammer in your pack. (If not, wherefore the difference???)

So...by simple logical conclusion....Dangle has never put up a hammerless wall, ever, he has only made hammerless ascents possible by (what else) using a hammer.

I don't see any way around that logic.

You said it, I didn't


dangle


Mar 1, 2005, 10:04 PM
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For the intellectually challenged the difference is this; clean is good but hammerless shows greater commitment.

So yes it is not a hammerless ascent if your "courage" is in your rucksack to paraphrase someone I'll see again this month. It is merely clean.


dmckj


Mar 1, 2005, 10:16 PM
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Tried to give you an out Dangle, but you wouldn't take it, so I'll answer and ask questions of my own:

In reply to:
Why did I have to buy a rollei B35 a month after Moonlight?

Sadly, I'll try and answer this one. Josh Leiberman, who I started Moonlight (with ZERO help from Dangle) with wrote me that he recalled some incident about a camera. Since I don't remember dropping anyone's (obviously your) camera, it likely means Josh dropped your camera and you undoubtedly berated him so badly he declined to want to have anything to do with you again, period. (How funny and hipocritical then Brian's tale of you threatening to throw his camera off Monkeyfinger).

True to your style, you're more concerned about your camera....as evidenced by your own question. What does the fact that he might have dropped your camera have anything to do with anything? Answer: nothing.

(please....give me harder questions!)

In reply to:
How many .75 friends did we have?

Predictably, the answer to this is only a few posts back, so one can only conclude you enjoy rhetorical devices.

The question isn't whether we had Friends, the question is how quickly one starts pounding pitons. You know the answer to that, as do I.

In reply to:
How many hammer blows did I use to place pins?

The distinction is not in how many blows, but whether pins are used at all. As to how many blows, I'll refer readers back to Brian's story of climbing Monkeyfinger with you.

In reply to:
On Spaceshot how far had I run it out backcleaning the friends before using the rest of the rack?

Compared to how far I was running it out WITHOUT using pins......not far at all. In fact, that is why I gave you so much shit.

In reply to:
And why wouldn't he know the sizes of the tools he knows so well?

Talk about a soft pitch....I was, and am, proud of the fact I don't know sizes above baby angles. I don't want to be competent at nailing cracks that can be readily nutted and/or cammed. Never pretended to know and really don't care. (Actually, I do, but don't want to admit it).

In reply to:
Does the Terrier still feel that it is ethical to alter an aid route with every ascent and devil take the hindmost?

I addressed this in great detail earlier in this thread. No need for futher comment.

And again, the most important unresolved issue, is how can a guy who put up Climb Against Nature make ANY claim to being holier-than-thou about protecting rock. I am sympathetic to your purported desire to 'save' the rock, but your conflicted actions speak more loudly.

My advice: rest on the laurels of the things I give you credit for...

-good eye for new lines
-good judgement as to quality of line and rock
-getting there first.....at least a lot of the time
-persistence
-patience in getting up
-historical perspective
-seeing opportunities others didn't
-good route names
-long reach on bolt ladders
-will go down in history as a pioneer of many good to great Zion routes

Why don't you leave it at that and drop the pretense of the rest? (forgetting, of course, our take for the profits on this thread)


dmckj


Mar 1, 2005, 10:26 PM
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In reply to:
For the intellectually challenged the difference is this; clean is good but hammerless shows greater commitment. So yes it is not a hammerless ascent if your "courage" is in your rucksack to paraphrase someone I'll see again this month. It is merely clean.

Completely agree with you: Drilling down routes for the masses takes most of the courage and commitment out of a route.

Well said.


golsen


Mar 1, 2005, 10:33 PM
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You guys have been doing a great job with the stories…….

And D and R have probably shed some of their animosity (or is there still more to come?).......

Now what about that DRILLING/chipping? It is a fact that there were holes drilled in Southern Utah rock to aid in “free” climbing them. If drilling bolts is dirty work (to some) then drilling holds is what? Besides capturing Zion History, this is the most significant item brought up here in this thread.

Does anybody out there know something about that stuff?

Mormons call this repentance. I hear its suppose to cleanse the spirit sort of thing. But the big thing is, it may even provide some guidance to younger climbers that don’t understand the significance of chipping into real rock. This may be a good chance to preserve and/or set straight ethical considerations that have more of an impact than hammerless, or courage in a rucksack sort of stuff.


bsmoot


Mar 1, 2005, 10:41 PM
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Gary,

Sorry, but I like my version of the story better! I do stand corrected about your returning to Zion. At the time, I asked you about your adventures on the north face of Mt. Hooker in the Winds. In your usual unassuming & humble way, you never mentioned anything about your recent Zion activities...anyway, thanks for being such a good sport!


dmckj


Mar 1, 2005, 10:42 PM
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Amen!!!

I've been trying to spur SOMEONE to take this up....but no one will much touch this issue.

Good job Gosen.

I am still waiting for the Climb Against Nature first ascent story...


golsen


Mar 1, 2005, 10:57 PM
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Brian,

your tips were most important on a number of climbs. I especially like one that was sort of like this, "aid climbing is really all about having the guts to stand up." Helped me out a number of times when I didnt want to.....

Hope we can get together sometime....Where is Mr. Ellison. He had some of the best stories ever. Something about he and dangle 4-wheeling up to a place they werent supposed to?

It would be great to see some of yours and Les' stories about the Wasatch....


dmckj


Mar 2, 2005, 10:35 AM
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Let's get back in focus on Golsen's comment

In reply to:
Now what about that DRILLING/chipping? It is a fact that there were holes drilled in Southern Utah rock to aid in “free” climbing them. If drilling bolts is dirty work (to some) then drilling holds is what? Besides capturing Zion History, this is the most significant item brought up here in this thread.

Does anybody out there know something about that stuff?

I do, and have repeatedly brought it up.

Would Dangle care to boldly defend his active role in this?


brianinslc


Mar 2, 2005, 3:02 PM
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In reply to:
In 1985 Guy Toombes and I tried the Lowe Route on the N. Face of Angels Landing. The info I had gave a rating of 5.7 A2. We were climbing it too slowly and bailed. I think Conrad climbed it twice before Guy and I made it back the following year. It took us three days on what I think was the 5th ascent. Needless to say when I met Jeff at a slideshow I asked him about the sandbag rating and he laughed and said it was a big pile of sand anyway. Guy thought the route was harder then the Nose. For me, it still remains a great adventure on a fairly untouched route. I can’t believe Jeff did the first ascent of the route as a teenager. Very impressive.

Wow...neat. I have Guy's route topo from that climb... He always thought you and he had the first "non-Lowe" ascent of the route and had marked Conrad's and James' high point, even. But, James always claimed that they did it prior to you all. Any idear the exact date of the ascent?

I miss climbing with Guy...

Jeff was psyched to hear about Mike's free variation ascent of the "Lowe" route (always a moment of awkwardness when you're talking to a Lowe about "the Lowe route", ha ha). Maybe Mike can add some of his own Zion history to this thread about that ascent. Come on, man, make my TCU famous...

Good stuff, thanks!

-Brian in SLC


brianinslc


Mar 2, 2005, 3:04 PM
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In reply to:
So yes it is not a hammerless ascent if your "courage" is in your rucksack to paraphrase someone I'll see again this month. It is merely clean.

Did he reschedule? Thought he bailed in protest over US travel policy?

Child is the keynote speaker for saturday night, now.

Rumor has it that Reinhold has softened on his bolt stance anyhow...

Brian in SLC


theledge


Mar 2, 2005, 4:13 PM
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I just read the entire post. Longest time I have ever sat in front of a computer. six hours with a break for lunch, and two missed classes. Deffinately one of the most interesting reads I have had in a long time. great stories, and even though the BS got pretty thick I think it gave an interesting look into the minds of great climbers. This whole thread has made me look at my climbing partners closer (for both the good and the bad), it has also inspired me to talk my friend shaggy into taking me out for some Zion big wall. I wish I had seen this discussion at a bar/campfire even with the fisticuffs. I would love to have met everyone.

PS if this was dirrected as a film I would definately say it is Quintan Tarantinoes (sp) style.


kpj240789


Mar 2, 2005, 5:37 PM
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[indigo] I will
not stop
making stupid
posts
blaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaallllaaaaaalllaaahhhhhh
blaaaaahhhhhaaaaallllaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhh
blaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh[/indigo]


golsen


Mar 2, 2005, 8:01 PM
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Well, no more stories from the big dogs. (Come on you guys, I think you can give the animosity a break for a bit) And someone brought Guy’s name up again so I thought I would tell more about our early ascent of Angels Landing. Disclaimer #1: There wasn’t anything historical about this ascent other than a great adventure for Guy and me. This is a tribute to Guy Toombes, one of the greatest partners you could tie in with. Sadly, Guy was injured in a Sport Climbing accident that left him with some permanent health issues and sadder still, I haven’t kept up with him. Guy started climbing well, hell, I don’t even know when, but when I started in the 70’s he was already an experienced climber and had been a Guide in the Winds and Tetons. He was always very good at sharing his tales and he got me going on a couple climbs I would never had done if it weren’t for him. His tales of living in a teepee in Jackson Hole had me dreaming of the same.

As was stated earlier in this thread, hardly anyone climbed in Zions in the early 80’s. Personally, I had no interest in Yosemite at that time. I mean, why go fight the crowds (or that is what I heard) when you had huge walls that nobody was climbing? Enjoying the wilderness was something that got me started climbing and Zion was still wild. As a fledging wannabe wall climber the Lowe Route sounded perfect at 5.8 A2. How hard could that be?

As usual, my mouth got me started before thought. I saw Guy in the Tram line at the ‘Bird (1984?) We had never climbed with each other and I said, “hey lets do Angels Landing this summer”? Our original plan was to make one bivvy about 4 pitches up, then go for the top. Not a good plan for us on that route. The description we had was very vague and there was no Topo. We thought we spied where the Route left the big dihedral and returned right on the edge of the big arch about 2/3rds of the way up the face. Those first 4 pitches were fairly continuous at the grade and even though climbing in LCC had provided me with some wide crack experience it was way more difficult than either of us were expecting but the climbing is fun and the wall looming above still pulled us upward. On the third pitch I had a near death experience for both of us when I touched a big loose flake on the left side of the dihedral. About 5 ft tall and 8” thick the sucker moved with the slightest of touches. 5.8 A2? This wasn’t exactly the “S” crack in LCC which had been rated similarly in those days. We swapped leads and bivvied at the top of the fourth pitch. That is a pretty good ledge but something was living there and it sounded big. In the middle of the night it ate an apple and some other stuff. At the time it seemed more prudent to let him have his way with our food than scare it away.

The wall changes there to a very steep corner system. These pitches were definitely freeable and maybe somewhat friable but I was still a bit new to Indian Creek type cracks at that time so clean aid seemed prudent.

We moved pretty slow and late in the day we arrived at the base of the Traverse out to the knifeblade crack. This is a scary looking pitch with great exposure. You can’t really see where to go or what you are going for. Guy and I both knew our time was up. We figured we were about half way and both of us had obligations. I had set up a belay with Tri-cams and a Friend and I think there may have been a bolt there. I do remember telling Guy that we could pull the Friend but he was adamant that we leave it in place. It was anathema to me, those suckers were expensive. After gazing down the wall, and figuring that I worked at a climbing store I gave in. Good thing, as he was rapping off one of those shifty Tricams pulled and the Friend and bolt held.

We got busy and didn’t come back until the next summer. This time the theory was to plan for two Bivvies. I think it was a Jeff Lowe account that said there was a suitable Bivvy above the knifeblade pitch. This time, I was going through marriage troubles and climbing was the purest form of relief that I could have imagined. Isnt that the coolest thing? When you are up there the stuff that really matters isn’t any day to day garbage, troubles at work go away, what is important is how to climb safely. Climbing distills life down to the simplest components. On the bivvy ledge that night, I poured my guts out. Talk about putting a rope partner through torture. Poor Guy, he couldn’t get away if he wanted to. I connected with Guy then and him being several years older then me I felt a kind of a big brother relationship thing going. I felt a whole lot better the next morning and that night helped me make a key decision in my life a whole lot easier. (So if you want some cheap counseling, find the right partner and head to a wall…..Just don’t do that with Ron….Just kidding Ron, I had to throw that one in here for kicks!)

I had fixed the fifth pitch and I jugged up before the bag was packed. When I started hauling in the slack of the haul line the rope dislodged a couple water bottles. Shit! Guy didn’t say much, no comment about getting my shit together. It was obvious someone had done the route since we retreated. The booty was gone. I had heard later that it was Conrad and James (good job guys). The traverse and knifeblade pitch was Guy’s (fortunately, since it looked pretty damn scary). I posted a photo of him on this pitch - check out his pro a looped horn- that is clean pro, unless of course he peals).

After arriving on the “adequate” bivvy ledge, I was burnt and sorely disappointed. It is a "adequate" but not one you’d write home about. I fixed the next pitch which is a bolt ladder that by our description led to a “good crack”. It was good alright, good and scary. This pitch nears the top of the arch so you have a lot of air beneath you. Rapping back to the belay, I dangled out in space below the big arch in the N Face. My shirt got sucked into my rappel device and I was friggin stuck. Scared, spinning and pretty close to freaking out, I was able to free my shirt and Guy pulled me over to the belay.

Guy ended up sleeping on a ledge about 30 feet from mine. While not real smokers, Guy said it was a good thing to have on a wall. We had a smoke and enjoyed the gathering darkness. To avoid rolling off that ledge (its pretty small), I had wrapped some rope around me up to the belay. Every time I moved during the night, I reached up for the ropes to feel their assurance.

The next day went well despite a lack of water. I think it was June but that wall gets a lot of shade. I do remember one time near the top. We thought we were through all of the hard part when we ran into a pitch that was not straightforward. I was amped on summit fever and told Guy to climb right. In his typical calm form he told me I was crazy, and it looked 5.11. He was correct once again as he had been the whole climb. It was weird when we pulled over the top, no water for most of the day, my white T-shirt was black and red from sand and there were two crisp couples dressed in white tennis outfits…We were back to reality. Bummer. That night I had the worst nightmares of my life. Every time I reached for my ropes before rolling over, they were not there! Scared the bejesus out of me. The next morning, showered and eating a nice breakfast in Springdale, we were able to see the sun shining on those big walls. Every detail was so fine and clear. This was the first time I had experienced a natural high like that. (I have attempted to post some photos, a process harder than 5.8x by the way, but you'll have to excuse the quality.)

Guy, I hope someone in SLC tells you about this story. Take Care buddy!Jeff, if you are out there, awesome route!

Will the history makers of Zion's help mankind record the true history of Zion's climbing and throw in a piece? Hopefully, the animosity will rest in peace for a while....

Or will we hear about the modern refinements of route sculpting?


dmckj


Mar 2, 2005, 10:08 PM
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Golsen.......good job on the story old chap!! You caught the flavor quite nicely.

Now, an unplanned story....... (don't worry folks, Drinkin Beer Are Ya is still coming....you see I'm under a contractual deal with Big Ed the moderator to crank out a required minimum number of posts so I can't use up all the best stuff up front)

Cowboy Bob Goes to Zion

Hugh O'neall was one of those guys who got started climbing too late in life. I met Hugh while I was living and climbing in Taos, New Mexico. I had the perfect life: beautiful girlfriend, great decent paying job, and some of the best undiscovered rock in the U.S. This included places like Questa Dome, Tres Piedras, and a fantasy ridge-line climb up to the 14,000 summit of Kit Carson peak. Then I lost my girlfriend AND the job and had to move from Taos.....oh, wait, this isn't that story.

O.K., back on theme. Hugh, a guy named Beau Hayworth, and I were out at Tres Piedras in the heydey of new routes. We had spotted this improbable line. My lead. All trad, steep face climbing, lots of chicken-heads that you ended up tying off as the only pro most of the way up. Once we got up we were looking for a name, and Hugh, the novice amongst us, came up with 'how about calling it Cowboy Bob's Chikenhead Delight?' Stupidest idea I had ever heard, but I liked it. It is now sort of a cult trad classic, but the name makes the route.

Anyway, I managed to con Hugh into joining me in Zion. He was great at the technical stuff, but lacked a good leading head, so I kind of figured I would put him through the shock therapy of putting up a new long route in Zion. (yeah, looking back on it, it was fairly sadistic). But Hugh was game.

I had a nice line picked out on perhaps the biggest of the three 'Towers of Fate' up Pine Creek (south face of East Temple). Off we went. Applying the standard fix-a-bunch-of-pitches-and-go-for-it technique we rigged about 3 full pitches, if I recall. Probably we had three ropes rigged, dropped the first, and continued up with 2 ropes. I don't much recall the pitches at this point, but I do recall leading up to this absolutely horrifying looking offwidth overhang and then, to my delight, finding such a bomber hex placement that the actual crux move (sandbag 5.10+ if I recall rating it) seemed almost mundane and anti-climactic after looking up at the hideous thing from the bottom.

We were a fair ways up at this point and had a pretty fair way to go. Once again, per usual, I felt that gut-level angst that we were going to find ourselves stuck in the dark in some place we didn't want to be. Hugh was no longer saying anything, a bad sign. I grabbed the lead for the rest of the route. Didn't seem too bad until only 2 pitches from the top (all free to this point). It was getting duskish at this time. A fairly trivial looking lead, less than vertical, turned out to be anything but. I was in atrocious free-climbing shape, and the climbing just got too hard, so I started aiding. Unfortunately, the reasonable aid and daylight were running out at the same time. Couldn't see anything I could do without drilling a bolt. But it was moderate angle. If I had the balls (which I was pretty much lacking) I could try a hard and irreversible mantle move. If I fell it would be a screamer. No time to drill a bolt. Pissed off at myself for being such a chiken-shit I decided, just this once, to push it. Got into the mantle and realized it was harder than I thought. No positive holds, nothing to grab above, just pure push down and get your foot up level with your hands before you keel over backwards. It was your worst nightmare....total sandy ball bearing white stuff.

Well, only for fear of the unintended bivy, I made the move without falling. Tying off a bush for a belay, we had only just a short 30 foot stretch to top out on the pillar. I was pretty jazzed because I KNEW it was only a simple walk-off, or careful traverse at worst, to the Great Arch trail. No problem.

DEAD WRONG! We summitted the spire, Hugh in a speechless stupor at this point, only to look down and see a full on vertical slot of about 80-90 foot depth and 30 feet wide separating us from the walk-off. In other words we were totally f$%&#ed. Not only that, but we had no time to do any complicated rappeling (sounds like the Lost in Transit story, que no?). Surrendering to the inevitable, I just started tying off any bush in sight and going straight down to the side of the route in some steep gulleys. No time to drill a single hole if we were to get off by dark.

Incredibly, bushes showed up at every ledge, taking us all the way into the final vertical fissures. At the last (I think) vertical rappel I could find not a single natural anchor. No time to drill, or maybe we didn't even have a drill (don't recall). Anyway, we didn't drill. The trick solution I found was to take a rounded rock, tie it off with a sling and jam it into the crack we had to go down. An 'original' nut a-la-Dresden (or wherever) it was. It worked, we got down in absolute dark, and were, per usual, drinking beer at the Bit and Spur not too long thereafter.

For the ridiculous and unforgiveable spanking I had unfairly levelled on my partner I decided to name it in his honor....ergo....

Cowboy Bob Goes to Zion


golsen


Mar 2, 2005, 10:27 PM
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Thank you D. And good job yourself! I have heard about that route but not the story behind it. Glad you are sharing this stuff....I think it is pretty damn great that many of these routes are still probably pretty damn adventurous. Makes me want to get down that-a-way and see what I have left in me...

I think Dangle must have something more important going on....

The adventure of that stuff is truly incredible!.....AWESOME!

I for one hope not to many new and improved guides, especially Falcon come out on this place....I think it would be a shame to miss out on the topo search with the rangers...I assume that is where some of your topos are.

Have a good one!


skinner


Mar 3, 2005, 4:28 AM
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In reply to:
Then I lost my girlfriend AND the job and had to move from Taos.....oh, wait, this isn't that story.

You are right, that's actually a country song I think? :)

    golsen and dmckj, awesome stories!

      and dmjk, committing your self to the "irreversible mantle" with no idea what's above you, but a very clear idea of what's below you, ballsy shit for sure.

        golsen, I looked at your photo's and the one of Guy on the third pitch.. I have always wanted to ask someone who has been there, but I heard that there is moss all over the place, that there are plenty of holds that will crumble when minimally weighted, that it is basically a runout and what protection there is poor.
        Is this reality, Or creative writing in action?
        Thanks again for the great stories guys!


        rockprodigy


        Mar 3, 2005, 7:16 AM
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        More photos Gary! It would be very interesting to see how much the Lowe Route has changed in 20 years.

        Some more comments on that route which I pretty much have memorized foot-by-foot.

        That 7th pitch traverse has a bolt on it, right past where Guy is in your photo. Was it there when you did it? Also, those cracks just before where Guy slung that horn will take some marginal cams, so that traverse is much more tame now...but it still scared the crap out of my wife, following it with approach shoes on.

        In reply to:
        Those first 4 pitches were fairly continuous at the grade and even though climbing in LCC had provided me with some wide crack experience it was way more difficult than either of us were expecting but the climbing is fun and the wall looming above still pulled us upward. On the third pitch I had a near death experience for both of us when I touched a big loose flake on the left side of the dihedral. About 5 ft tall and 8” thick the sucker moved with the slightest of touches.

        Yeah, those first four are a bit of an eye-opener. You can tell neither of the guidebook authors ever set foot on the route. Mossy/sandy slab(p1) to flaring chimneys(p2)...to runout face climbing around loose rock(p3 and 4). Oh yeah, that loose flake on pitch 3 is still there. It seems to be locked in place, but it's definitely move-able.

        In reply to:
        The wall changes there (Pitch 5) to a very steep corner system. These pitches were definitely freeable and maybe somewhat friable but I was still a bit new to Indian Creek type cracks at that time so clean aid seemed prudent.

        I'm not so sure. I rated the first pitch off the ledge at 12b (10+) R, with definite ledge fall potential at the start. Freeing that pitch in '85 with aid gear would have been impressive. The next pitch, up to the "flake belay" is pretty mellow now (10c), but without the pin scars that are there now and fixed gear, it would be much harder and quite frightening...those pitches are gorgeous though. The section from the flake belay to the start of the 7th pitch is pretty burly...as Brian's cam can attest to.

        In reply to:
        We moved pretty slow and late in the day we arrived at the base of the Traverse out to the knifeblade crack.

        It's hard to believe this was once a knifeblade crack. It's 2 and 3 Angle size now. That section of the wall has the softest rock on the entire wall, I know this because I replaced some belay bolts, and I drilled a 3.5" hole in about 5 minutes! I think that's why those pinscars are so big now. I think this sort of situation lends credibility to Ron's stance of "creating" routes that go clean by leaving fixed gear.

        In reply to:
        The booty was gone. I had heard later that it was Conrad and James (good job guys).

        There is still a good topo in the V-center written by Conrad. I don't know if it's from the '85/'86 time frame though. Did they add the rappels down the front side of the big tower? The second rap anchor off the big ledge (p4) is quite an eye-opener...and I had an epic of my own off of that one, I can recount later. I wanted to retro bolt that anchor, but never got around to it.

        In reply to:
        After arriving on the “adequate” bivvy ledge, I was burnt and sorely disappointed. It is a "adequate" but not one you’d write home about.


        I think "adequate" is a good description. It's reminiscent of Long Ledge on the Salathe, but terraced, and not as long...I spent a lot of time there working the free variation.

        In reply to:
        This pitch nears the top of the arch so you have a lot of air beneath you. Rapping back to the belay, I dangled out in space below the big arch in the N Face.

        This is very true! That pitch has to be one of the most exposed in Zion. It's similar to the pitch off of Earth Orbit, except that the gear is much more sketchy and the roof is directly under your heals, not 30 feet down. After a tip from Bsmoot, I rapped off of there to inspect the bolt ladder for free climbing on a windy day...I almost never came back after that experience.

        In reply to:
        I do remember one time near the top. We thought we were through all of the hard part when we ran into a pitch that was not straightforward.

        True, again. The route doesn't let up until you are on the summit! You guys may have been better off sans topo. When we did it the first time, I was using the McAfee topo, and he shows the route ending after pitch 8: ha-freaking-ha!! Later, I was perusing the topos in the V-center and I discovered that he had just lifted the topo directly from there, but he didn't see the last FOUR pitches that were crammed in on a corner of the page. There is a lot of suffering contained in those 4 pitches! It would be possible to do a face climbing variation at the top, which would be really nice, but such a variation doesn't exist at this time.

        What a great route!


        no_one


        Mar 3, 2005, 7:16 PM
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        Great stories guys, keep em coming!

        In reply to:
        golsen said, I for one hope not to many new and improved guides, especially Falcon come out on this place....I think it would be a shame to miss out on the topo search with the rangers...I assume that is where some of your topos are.

        Rumor has it that there is a new guide book in progress. I don't personaly know the guy that's putting it together, but I know he knows Zion very well and I've heard he's focusing more on routes that aren't in other books. I also know that he is interested in route discriptions/beta on new or unpublished lines. I'm not interested in starting a bash session about this guy, so I'll let someone else disclose his name, but if you do have beta for him, pm me and i'll try to get you in contact with him. I sure he will do a better job than Alex McAfee... what a waste of paper that is!

        Ron, where'd ya go? We need more stories from you too! Hey and about that movie you mentioned, what night is good for you? Maybe friday? Saturday night, Justin, Grizz and I are going backpacking to a secret indian camp, so those nights won't work!

        Again, Dave, Ron, golsen, and the others that have put their two cents in; thanks, keep em comeing!


        no_one


        Mar 3, 2005, 7:23 PM
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        Great stories guys, keep em coming!

        In reply to:
        golsen said... I for one hope not to many new and improved guides, especially Falcon come out on this place....I think it would be a shame to miss out on the topo search with the rangers...I assume that is where some of your topos are.

        Rumor has it that there is a new guide book in progress. I don't personaly know the guy that's putting it together, but I know he knows Zion very well and I've heard he's focusing more on routes that aren't in other books. I also know that he is interested in route discriptions/beta on new or unpublished lines. I'm not interested in starting a bash session about this guy, so I'll let someone else disclose his name, but if you do have beta for him, pm me and i'll try to get you in contact with him. I sure he will do a better job than Alex McAfee... what a waste of paper that is!

        Ron, where'd ya go? We need more stories from you too! Hey and about that movie you mentioned, what night is good for you? Maybe friday? Saturday night, Justin, Grizz and I are going backpacking to a secret indian camp, so those nights won't work!

        Again, Dave, Ron, golsen, and the others that have put their two cents in; thanks, keep em comeing!


        no_one


        Mar 3, 2005, 7:24 PM
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        oops!! Sorry


        dangle


        Mar 4, 2005, 6:36 AM
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        Perhaps some haven't noticed.

        There's been some good weather to actually GO climbing.


        golsen


        Mar 4, 2005, 12:01 PM
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        Rockprodigy, thanks, I will attempt to post some more pics. Damn fine job by the way, you freeing it. I would really be interested to find out how you got past the bolt ladder part of the Lowe Route. In terms of the pitch off of the ledge, you will note that I said I thought it could go free which is a damn big difference than saying I thought I could free it. At the time I was envisioning someone like Hong doing it. But it waited for someone who had the drive and ambition to get up there. If I remember correctly, the initial part of that pitch was very sketchy and then it turned into a good crack.

        Dangle, time to take a rest day and chronicle your exploits...


        deuce4


        Mar 8, 2005, 8:22 AM
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        hello all

        just back from a two week trip to Easter Island in the Pacific and Machu Picchu in Peru--awesome places, the rockwork of the ancient ones really is impressive, makes the engineering task of climbing rocks seem trivial in comparison. How did those people move those 40 ton blocks and sculptures?

        Respectively, I must say I am a bit baffled about the continued references and debate to my old history article. No longer considering myself an authority of the Zion history (it has been a while since I was in the climbing fray), I can't really revise what my old self wrote in the early 90's without a study of my old topo collections and notes, which are packed away deep in some storage boxes. I would have expected by now someone else to have compiled a more complete and definitive history that would be enjoyable reading to all, and which I would be happy to defer to in place of my Bjornstadt brief history piece. Seems like it would be a better use of time than to analyze the old stuff. Plus there is a lot more history to Zion than just the 70's and 80's, though that was truly a boon time.

        Enjoyed the stories and notes about the rock work in Zion, thanks!

        adios, amigos and amigas!

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