Forums: Climbing Disciplines: Trad Climbing:
"needles rap"?
RSS FeedRSS Feeds for Trad Climbing

Premier Sponsor:

 


Partner one900johnnyk


Mar 19, 2005, 5:14 PM
Post #1 of 15 (1572 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 23, 2002
Posts: 2381

"needles rap"?
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

i've heard people use the phrase "then doing a needles rap" or "setting up a needles rap" ... what sort of technique does this involve that differentiates it? hoping someone from sd or anyone else familiar might be able to help. thanks

and yes, i'm fully aware of the search feature, but that doesn't seem to affect my decision not to use it.


rockguide


Mar 20, 2005, 9:54 PM
Post #2 of 15 (1572 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 8, 2004
Posts: 1358

Re: "needles rap"? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Ah.... the needles rap....

I have had to do many - some in the needles, some in joshua tree, some in the canadian rockies. Spicy.

This technique is used to descend from a summit that does not have a rappel anchor. Hopefully there was some form of a belay anchor to get your partner up but it may have been an anchor on pro that you did not want to leave. The steps

1) Identify a "saddle feature on the summit where the rope will not roll off
2) lay the rope through the saddle so one end goes down one side of the formation and the the other end goes down the other side of the formation. Knot the ends. Make sure the rope will not roll left or right
3)Make sure both rope ends touch the ground - in some cases this means the middle of the rope may not be on the top of the pinnacle. Did I mention to make sure the ends had knots?
4)Set up your rappel devices so you are each rappelling on a single strand, facing each other and can lean back off of each other.
5) Commit your weight to the rope at the same time while ensuring the rope seats down in the saddle of the feature. If the rope does not touch the rock you risk both teetering off to the same side. Fatal. If one weights the rope before the other they may drag their partner over the top and they both go down. Fatal.
6) Rappel off the counterbalance. Maintain smooth rope tension. Do not unweight the rope for a moment.
7) Stop your rappel the moment your feet touch the ground DO NOT LET GO OF YOUR BRAKEHAND or remove your device.
8) Call to your partner that you are down.
9) When you have both called down, confirm that you are both down.
10) if you are both confirmed down, remove devices and one person pulls the rope over the top.

THIS IS NOT STANDARD PROTOCOL AND REQUIRES PLANNING AND CLEAR COMMUNICATION.

Climb fast, take lots of chances. It is all about adventure.


pk


Mar 20, 2005, 10:23 PM
Post #3 of 15 (1572 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 13, 2003
Posts: 459

Re: "needles rap"? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I've never done one, sounds very risky. Seems like the only way to confirm if your partner is down or not is to have a radio with you? I don't seem how it's even feasable to rely on tension over the hump of the peak to "feel" if your both off.

P.K.


Partner angry


Mar 20, 2005, 10:40 PM
Post #4 of 15 (1572 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jul 21, 2003
Posts: 8405

Re: "needles rap"? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

The other thing Needles Rap may mean is not as dangerous. Basically you sling the top of a needle formation and thread the rope through the webbing. You rap down, but instead of just pulling the rope, you flick it hard (it takes a bit of practice) and if you are lucky, the webbing will lift off the needle and it and the webbing falls to the ground. The balance is to tie the webbing high and loose enough that it will come off, but low enough that it won't come off while rapping. If it doesn't work, you can pull the rope and just lose the webbing.


Partner one900johnnyk


Mar 22, 2005, 4:44 PM
Post #5 of 15 (1572 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 23, 2002
Posts: 2381

Re: "needles rap"? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

i got one other variation as well which seems like it would work in theory... you wrap the rope around the top of the needle.. the friction and the fact that it's weighted while you rap should keep it in place,.. then just walk around the base to undo it... this obviously only works on narrow spires.. anyone done this?


Partner angry


Mar 22, 2005, 4:50 PM
Post #6 of 15 (1572 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jul 21, 2003
Posts: 8405

Re: "needles rap"? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In theory you could bring it all the way around and go down the same way a lumberjack climbs a tree.

I wouldn't try it.


tradmanclimbs


Mar 22, 2005, 5:53 PM
Post #7 of 15 (1572 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 24, 2003
Posts: 2599

Re: "needles rap"? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I did the simo rap off of Triconia nail a few years ago and it was no big deal. you are both sitting up there like your rideing a horse, get into it carefully and rap smooth. it would be much scetchier if one person was noticably lighter than the other. the lighter person must go first and get a bit of a head start to ballance things out 8^)


threadkilla


Mar 22, 2005, 6:05 PM
Post #8 of 15 (1572 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Mar 9, 2004
Posts: 19

Re: "needles rap"? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
In theory you could bring it all the way around and go down the same way a lumberjack climbs a tree.

:lol: thanks for the mental picture of that.
If you 're talking about what is known as a simul-rap, rockguide has it right. It's not as crazy as it sounds. You would not want to start a simul-rap standing up and trying to balance against your partner. You would start it with the rope fully in contact with the rock, draped across the top of the formation you are rapping from. The friction of of the rope on the rock cancels out any weight difference. When you get to the bottom, you don't need to hear your partner, just stay on rappel and you will feel when the weight is off the rope. Decide who will pull the rope beforehand. I have done it before. Have seen some pictures of people rapping off rock arches that way.


Partner one900johnnyk


Mar 22, 2005, 6:44 PM
Post #9 of 15 (1572 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 23, 2002
Posts: 2381

Re: "needles rap"? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

i've done a simul-rap before, you don't need a needle for one of those... a needles rap has to be something different though, or it wouldn't really have a different name... rather than belay the second from the top, it'd probably just as efficient to have them hold the rope from the ground whil you rap off the other side and then the second could just pink point it...


curt


Mar 22, 2005, 6:52 PM
Post #10 of 15 (1572 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Aug 26, 2002
Posts: 18230

Re: "needles rap"? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
i've done a simul-rap before, you don't need a needle for one of those... a needles rap has to be something different though, or it wouldn't really have a different name...

Nope. It's called a Needles rappell simply because they are so frequently encountered in the Needles of S.Dak.

Curt


dwise


Mar 22, 2005, 7:15 PM
Post #11 of 15 (1572 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jan 1, 2004
Posts: 190

Re: "needles rap"? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In my pics I have one of us simul-rapping off of Tricouni in the Needles. Not tremendously difficult, but dangerous if you don't do it properly. Yes, commo is important.


Partner wormly81


Mar 22, 2005, 7:38 PM
Post #12 of 15 (1572 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 9, 2004
Posts: 280

Re: "needles rap"? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
The other thing Needles Rap may mean is not as dangerous. .....

The balance is to tie the webbing high and loose enough that it will come off, but low enough that it won't come off while rapping. If it doesn't work, you can pull the rope and just lose the webbing.

If it doesn't work, you might not get a chance to try it again.

Jeff


corankinrok


Mar 22, 2005, 7:54 PM
Post #13 of 15 (1572 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 23, 2004
Posts: 34

Re: "needles rap"? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Good info from all, especially from rockguide! :)

Now some details, I started climbing in the Needles (SD) 15 years ago. I do 90% trad and simo or the Needles rap is not common, but found on several spires when you are in the established areas. If you head back into the unknown you definitely increase the chance of a simo rap. Just a note, Tricouni is the perfect setup, you have 4-5 +/- inches depth between the two "humps", don't expect this on many Needles spires that require a simo.

Another situation you may encounter. I've been on a few, where the top has no defined grove. You actually rely on small, I mean small, crystals to give you psycological pro from the rope moving. One method we use is to equal our weight and then throw a piece of webbing over the spire (if possible) to help stabalize the rope as you start. Once the rope is well seated (weighted) you remove the webbing and go slow and smooth.

It's also important to note the free hang of the rope so you know where gravity wants to take you. You don't want to have much movement in the system on the hairier simo raps.

quick note from a Needler..rok on


Partner one900johnnyk


Mar 23, 2005, 4:07 AM
Post #14 of 15 (1572 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 23, 2002
Posts: 2381

Re: "needles rap"? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

In reply to:
In reply to:
i've done a simul-rap before, you don't need a needle for one of those... a needles rap has to be something different though, or it wouldn't really have a different name...

Nope. It's called a Needles rappell simply because they are so frequently encountered in the Needles of S.Dak.

Curt

thanks.... but i thought you left???!! what gives?


angelaa


Mar 28, 2005, 12:10 PM
Post #15 of 15 (1572 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 21, 2003
Posts: 598

Re: "needles rap"? [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I've done a TON of Needles Style or Simul-Raps . . . really not a big deal!
Just like in many other aspects of climbing, you need to trust your partner!

--You both should try to weight the rope at the same time
--You NEED to unweight the rope at the same time as to not scare the crap out of the other guy when you're on the ground
* Note it is harder to do a simul-rap when you are on opposite sides of the rock, or cannot hear each other! - Communication is of Vital importance!

ALSO - when time is of the essence. . . simul-raps can save a LOT of time!

I love simul-raps, becuase that probably means I am climbing in the Black Hills of SD :D Not much better!


Forums : Climbing Disciplines : Trad Climbing

 


Search for (options)

Log In:

Username:
Password: Remember me:

Go Register
Go Lost Password?



Follow us on Twiter Become a Fan on Facebook