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one900johnnyk
Mar 20, 2005, 1:14 AM
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i've heard people use the phrase "then doing a needles rap" or "setting up a needles rap" ... what sort of technique does this involve that differentiates it? hoping someone from sd or anyone else familiar might be able to help. thanks
and yes, i'm fully aware of the search feature, but that doesn't seem to affect my decision not to use it.
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rockguide
Mar 21, 2005, 5:54 AM
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Ah.... the needles rap....
I have had to do many - some in the needles, some in joshua tree, some in the canadian rockies. Spicy.
This technique is used to descend from a summit that does not have a rappel anchor. Hopefully there was some form of a belay anchor to get your partner up but it may have been an anchor on pro that you did not want to leave. The steps
1) Identify a "saddle feature on the summit where the rope will not roll off
2) lay the rope through the saddle so one end goes down one side of the formation and the the other end goes down the other side of the formation. Knot the ends. Make sure the rope will not roll left or right
3)Make sure both rope ends touch the ground - in some cases this means the middle of the rope may not be on the top of the pinnacle. Did I mention to make sure the ends had knots?
4)Set up your rappel devices so you are each rappelling on a single strand, facing each other and can lean back off of each other.
5) Commit your weight to the rope at the same time while ensuring the rope seats down in the saddle of the feature. If the rope does not touch the rock you risk both teetering off to the same side. Fatal. If one weights the rope before the other they may drag their partner over the top and they both go down. Fatal.
6) Rappel off the counterbalance. Maintain smooth rope tension. Do not unweight the rope for a moment.
7) Stop your rappel the moment your feet touch the ground DO NOT LET GO OF YOUR BRAKEHAND or remove your device.
8) Call to your partner that you are down.
9) When you have both called down, confirm that you are both down.
10) if you are both confirmed down, remove devices and one person pulls the rope over the top.
THIS IS NOT STANDARD PROTOCOL AND REQUIRES PLANNING AND CLEAR COMMUNICATION.
Climb fast, take lots of chances. It is all about adventure.
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pk
Mar 21, 2005, 6:23 AM
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I've never done one, sounds very risky. Seems like the only way to confirm if your partner is down or not is to have a radio with you? I don't seem how it's even feasable to rely on tension over the hump of the peak to "feel" if your both off.
P.K.
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angry
Mar 21, 2005, 6:40 AM
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The other thing Needles Rap may mean is not as dangerous. Basically you sling the top of a needle formation and thread the rope through the webbing. You rap down, but instead of just pulling the rope, you flick it hard (it takes a bit of practice) and if you are lucky, the webbing will lift off the needle and it and the webbing falls to the ground. The balance is to tie the webbing high and loose enough that it will come off, but low enough that it won't come off while rapping. If it doesn't work, you can pull the rope and just lose the webbing.
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one900johnnyk
Mar 23, 2005, 12:44 AM
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i got one other variation as well which seems like it would work in theory... you wrap the rope around the top of the needle.. the friction and the fact that it's weighted while you rap should keep it in place,.. then just walk around the base to undo it... this obviously only works on narrow spires.. anyone done this?
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angry
Mar 23, 2005, 12:50 AM
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In theory you could bring it all the way around and go down the same way a lumberjack climbs a tree.
I wouldn't try it.
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tradmanclimbs
Mar 23, 2005, 1:53 AM
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I did the simo rap off of Triconia nail a few years ago and it was no big deal. you are both sitting up there like your rideing a horse, get into it carefully and rap smooth. it would be much scetchier if one person was noticably lighter than the other. the lighter person must go first and get a bit of a head start to ballance things out 8^)
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threadkilla
Mar 23, 2005, 2:05 AM
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In reply to: In theory you could bring it all the way around and go down the same way a lumberjack climbs a tree.
:lol: thanks for the mental picture of that.
If you 're talking about what is known as a simul-rap, rockguide has it right. It's not as crazy as it sounds. You would not want to start a simul-rap standing up and trying to balance against your partner. You would start it with the rope fully in contact with the rock, draped across the top of the formation you are rapping from. The friction of of the rope on the rock cancels out any weight difference. When you get to the bottom, you don't need to hear your partner, just stay on rappel and you will feel when the weight is off the rope. Decide who will pull the rope beforehand. I have done it before. Have seen some pictures of people rapping off rock arches that way.
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one900johnnyk
Mar 23, 2005, 2:44 AM
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i've done a simul-rap before, you don't need a needle for one of those... a needles rap has to be something different though, or it wouldn't really have a different name... rather than belay the second from the top, it'd probably just as efficient to have them hold the rope from the ground whil you rap off the other side and then the second could just pink point it...
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curt
Mar 23, 2005, 2:52 AM
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In reply to: i've done a simul-rap before, you don't need a needle for one of those... a needles rap has to be something different though, or it wouldn't really have a different name...
Nope. It's called a Needles rappell simply because they are so frequently encountered in the Needles of S.Dak.
Curt
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dwise
Mar 23, 2005, 3:15 AM
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In my pics I have one of us simul-rapping off of Tricouni in the Needles. Not tremendously difficult, but dangerous if you don't do it properly. Yes, commo is important.
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wormly81
Mar 23, 2005, 3:38 AM
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In reply to: The other thing Needles Rap may mean is not as dangerous. ..... The balance is to tie the webbing high and loose enough that it will come off, but low enough that it won't come off while rapping. If it doesn't work, you can pull the rope and just lose the webbing.
If it doesn't work, you might not get a chance to try it again.
Jeff
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corankinrok
Mar 23, 2005, 3:54 AM
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Good info from all, especially from rockguide! :)
Now some details, I started climbing in the Needles (SD) 15 years ago. I do 90% trad and simo or the Needles rap is not common, but found on several spires when you are in the established areas. If you head back into the unknown you definitely increase the chance of a simo rap. Just a note, Tricouni is the perfect setup, you have 4-5 +/- inches depth between the two "humps", don't expect this on many Needles spires that require a simo.
Another situation you may encounter. I've been on a few, where the top has no defined grove. You actually rely on small, I mean small, crystals to give you psycological pro from the rope moving. One method we use is to equal our weight and then throw a piece of webbing over the spire (if possible) to help stabalize the rope as you start. Once the rope is well seated (weighted) you remove the webbing and go slow and smooth.
It's also important to note the free hang of the rope so you know where gravity wants to take you. You don't want to have much movement in the system on the hairier simo raps.
quick note from a Needler..rok on
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one900johnnyk
Mar 23, 2005, 12:07 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: i've done a simul-rap before, you don't need a needle for one of those... a needles rap has to be something different though, or it wouldn't really have a different name... Nope. It's called a Needles rappell simply because they are so frequently encountered in the Needles of S.Dak. Curt
thanks.... but i thought you left???!! what gives?
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angelaa
Mar 28, 2005, 8:10 PM
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I've done a TON of Needles Style or Simul-Raps . . . really not a big deal!
Just like in many other aspects of climbing, you need to trust your partner!
--You both should try to weight the rope at the same time
--You NEED to unweight the rope at the same time as to not scare the crap out of the other guy when you're on the ground
* Note it is harder to do a simul-rap when you are on opposite sides of the rock, or cannot hear each other! - Communication is of Vital importance!
ALSO - when time is of the essence. . . simul-raps can save a LOT of time!
I love simul-raps, becuase that probably means I am climbing in the Black Hills of SD :D Not much better!
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