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Jackson Falls Trail DAY and party! April 16th 2005
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organic


Mar 23, 2005, 10:20 PM
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Jackson Falls Trail DAY and party! April 16th 2005
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--------------------------------
JACKSON FALLS TRAIL DAY
--------------------------------
APRIL 16th 2005
--------------------------------


So there was a sign at Jackson Falls about a testical festival that never went through, I guess haha, don't ask if you have not seen the sign. Anyways If weather is good there will be a trail day on saturday April 16th sponsored by the Southern Illinois Climbers Union. We will climb saturday and pick up trash(we will provide trash bags), probably replace that manky rope if not done so yet and then setup a slackline and hopefully have some games and prizes. I hope to see a bunch of people out there! if you need more info PM me or email me at jzayner@siu.edu. We will have some beer but it will probably go fast so BYOB. If the weather is looking bad we will probably postpone it to the next weekend or so. if you play any instruments bring them and jam! i will be jamming on my blues harp with my boy Ryan.


organic


Mar 26, 2005, 6:03 AM
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Bump dizzity bump. Anyone from the chitown or wisconsin crew going to make it?


mistymountainhop


Mar 26, 2005, 10:43 PM
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This is going to be a great way to bring our climbing community together. I hope as many people show up as possible.


gymslackerclimber


Mar 27, 2005, 6:21 PM
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Re: Jackson Falls Trail DAY and party! April 16th 2005 [In reply to]
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This sounds like a wonderfully great idea... Highline, infront of the falls!!!! OH YEAH... Organic, i heard you jumped off the falls fully clothed,, (crazy basterd) We need a pretty tough trash bag to hold that car in the creek? i understand the party part of the 'trial DAY and party',, but what does the trial day part mean?? -H


siclimber003


Mar 28, 2005, 10:30 AM
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Re: Jackson Falls Trail DAY and party! April 16th 2005 [In reply to]
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Interesting mistymountainhop. You are the one that recently said this on the Jackson Falls Retro bolting link about a guy putting up new routes:

In reply to:
Hes trying to move down here and in the meantime hes turning jackson into a giant zoo. His boredom is slowly turning jackson from the chill place i found when i first came eight years ago to a playground for chicago and STL area gymrats.

Now you think a big party is cool and will bring the climbing community together. Does that mean the Chi-town and St. Louis gym rats aren't part of the community? Or is it ok for them to be there? Or were you just pissed off about a bunch of cool routes that you didn't put up?


organic


Mar 28, 2005, 2:47 PM
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Re: Jackson Falls Trail DAY and party! April 16th 2005 [In reply to]
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In reply to:
Interesting mistymountainhop. You are the one that recently said this on the Jackson Falls Retro bolting link about a guy putting up new routes:

In reply to:
Hes trying to move down here and in the meantime hes turning jackson into a giant zoo. His boredom is slowly turning jackson from the chill place i found when i first came eight years ago to a playground for chicago and STL area gymrats.

Now you think a big party is cool and will bring the climbing community together. Does that mean the Chi-town and St. Louis gym rats aren't part of the community? Or is it ok for them to be there? Or were you just pissed off about a bunch of cool routes that you didn't put up?

Come on!@!*&#!*&) stop trying to start a flame war. We are trying to do something productive and all you can do is criticize and hide behind an anonymous name? This is not my idea alone but of mistymountainhops and mine together! We know we might not have expressed ourselves about Jackson Falls correctly but with the encouragment of everyone we are trying to organize something and do our part! This is a trail day, we want to put some effort into keeping Jackson beautiful and introduce people to the joys of climbing there. Please keep flames out of this thread, thank you.

Gymslacker: A trail day is where everyone comes and cleans, picks up trash and does what they can to restore some of the impact that has been made. Hope to see you there dude!

PS. Thanks to whomever replaced the rope that was super cool of ya'!! Wish we knew your name so we could give you thanks.


andy_lemon


Mar 28, 2005, 4:35 PM
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In reply to:
PS. Thanks to whomever replaced the rope that was super cool of ya'!! Wish we knew your name so we could give you thanks.

Brandon Durchholz, Vertical eXcape, Evansville.


organic


Apr 5, 2005, 3:30 PM
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Tons of people have been contacting me, looks like we are going to have a great turnout. Everybody come on down for a huge midwest gathering and have a blast.


kaijin


Apr 8, 2005, 9:32 PM
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This sounds awesome!

I will try to make it down but its a long drive by myself so finding someone to share the ride with would definitely help me out. I'll be taking Hwy. 61 south to StL, then I-64 East. Anyone on the way and interested in sharing a ride PM me please!

Organic- good work to you and the SICU putting this together. I just sent you a PM. Please let me know if you have any ideas. Otherwise I will see you there.


obe


Apr 10, 2005, 9:38 AM
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This will be amazing! I don't think I can go though, but I sure as hell am going to try! This will be great for the community too.

Have fun!
Climb on!
Climb hard!



-PETE


ericulner


Apr 10, 2005, 10:50 PM
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To Organic (Josiah), Jake83 (Jacob Teal), and others of the “southern illinois climbers union”:

I’ve mulled this over for a while now. Despite the fact that you’ve only had a few replies to your announcement post, and that your group may very well only consist of two, four, or six people, I figured I should go ahead and post a response anyway. A separatist group with a name that claims to represent a collective user group that already has an organization with an existing relationship with the land manager can only add up to confusion for the land manager. Confusion could cause negative ramifications for both the existing and new organizations. I know that you are entirely aware of the existence of the Illinois Climbers Association, incorporated in 2002 after the dissolving of the Southern Illinois Climbers Alliance, which was founded in 1991. Of course, people like Jacob Teal are convinced that the ICA is somehow irrelevant:
Jake83 (Jacob Teal) Posted: Fri Feb 18, 2005 1:51 pm Re: Retro-Bolting at Jackson Falls,IL
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...&topic_view=&start=0
“So I do know that so ill climbing organizations are not organized. The SICA or ICA members are basically retired or inactive. For example John Payne. I spoke with him a couple of weeks ago and he hadn't been climbing in quite some time”.

Jacob, John Payne is John Payne. He is not the ICA. He has been inactive, yes. He is also not staying abreast of latest happenings with regard to ICA’s relationship with the Shawnee. Your conversation that you’ve cited is not relevant to current events.

The ICA has been organized as much as possible, as time has allowed or not allowed, since its inception. Aside from letter writing campaigns and organized project days, such as the Cedar Bluff trail restoration projects of 1999 and 2001, which brought 65 and 30 (respectively) climbers together for a day each of sweat, there really isn’t much else for climbers en masse to do for “having an organization”, especially when there is no looming access crisis. We’ve only had project days at Cedar Bluff, because there has been nothing to do at Jackson Falls since around 1996, with the exception of the new sign at the parking lot. The trails issue there has been in limbo for the past several years.

Once in a while, a climber will contact me to offer help with the ICA. For the past few years, I’ve not known much of anything to tell them to do since we’ve had no real crises or trail work needs that could be addressed. We have needed written comment to the Forest Service regarding trails.
Jeff Stockton (ICA President), Nathan Holmes (Access Fund Regional Coordinator) and I have been the point people in maintaining relationships with the Shawnee National Forest and IL Dept. of Natural Resources for varying amounts of time. Relationship maintenance is not something that requires a big group of people to do. Some people, perhaps yourselves, have probably felt put off a bit by this situation- not feeling needed or whatever- but I won’t offer apologies for the pretty much unmatched climber-Forest Service relationship that we have with the Shawnee.

MistyMountainHop, these two posts of yours contradict each other:

http://www.rockclimbing.com/topic/84617
“This is going to be a great way to bring our climbing community together. I hope as many people show up as possible”.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/topic/80262
As we all know any So Ill climbing area has a great potential for overcrowding and the fact that dozens of easy routes under 5.10 are springing up all over the place doesnt help that fact.

Josiah, you then posted your new organization announcement with a call for a trail cleanup and impact mitigation day on Mar 23, 2005
http://www.rockclimbing.com/topic/84617
and later also stated:
“A trail day is where everyone comes and cleans, picks up trash and does what they can to restore some of the impact that has been made”.

Your announcement, Josiah, was made despite the fact that I stated in this post Feb 19, 2005
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...&topic_view=&start=0
“I do believe an Illinois Climbers Association meeting sometime soon would be good to have. I would much rather deal with questions, thankless whining, and other related matters in person at a meeting rather than on an Internet forum. Creating dirty laundry, artificial as it is, and airing it in public does no organization good”.

You never showed any interest in this.

The very name of your proposed organization looks to many people that this is an attempt to subvert the ICA. If what you told Kathy in your email on 3/26/2005 was true-
“The SICU was a group developed this year by a bunch of SIUC students, we are just out to have some fun and try and help other people discover the beauty of SI climbing”.
-I have a feeling that you would have chosen a different name, such as perhaps, SIU Climbing Club. If my main objective was to help other people discover the beauty of climbing, I’d simply take them climbing, and not call for a much-ado-about-nothing trail cleanup and beer fest.

Why the call to clean up the trail at Jackson Falls? You and a climbing partner with a garbage bag each could start at the main pool and jog the trail opposite directions. One would go to RR Rock, the other to the South Falls. You’d be done in less than an hour, probably a half-hour, with two far-from-filled garbage bags. Why don’t you instead go to each spot where people have car camped and clean out the fire pits? I used to do that midweek on a monthly basis. One garbage bag for the garbage and one snow shovel to scrape and spread the ash, and one or two people for about two hours. Done. And I didn’t need fanfare or a party to do it.

There are concerns, also, regarding your statement, “to restore some of the impact that has been made”. What does that mean? I hope that you, et al, are not planning to do any work or manipulation to the trails. If so, you are out of bounds. With respect to the trails at Jackson Falls, we (climbers collectively), the equestrians, and Shawnee management are nearing a point of fruition. You would know this if you would have bothered to open a line of communication with Jeff Stockton, Nathan Holmes, or me. Legitimate trail work opportunities at Jackson Falls are not far off in the future. This is one of the subjects on the agenda for the next ICA meeting on Saturday, May 21 (to be announced).

With a fifteen-year relationship with the Shawnee, ICA is always up front and informative with the Shawnee management. Any official gathering is cleared with them. Regarding the idea for a slack line over the pool, it does sound fun. But if you’re thinking about a high slack line from cliff top to cliff top, as in Bug Meat to Puff, the idea does not sit well with the Shawnee for you to rig one like that. There could exist a potential for user conflict with the equestrians. A bad case scenario could be- your leash catches you just in time to spook a horse and throw its rider. I’d hate to have the Shawnee called by equestrians complaining about even the mere potential for such a scenario. Consider a high slack line (if that’s your intent) in a less prominent area, especially where horses do not ride. Lovely Tower or Mr. Jimmy hallways, for example.

If indeed your energies are really about doing something and being positive for So IL climbing, why not take a deep breath, chill for a while, collect your thoughts, and attend the ICA meeting on May 21?

Eric Ulner


organic


Apr 11, 2005, 6:16 AM
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Re: Jackson Falls Trail DAY and party! April 16th 2005 [In reply to]
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Eric,

SICU name is a joke, a parody. I never even thought about it until Kathy emailed me, what SICU was. If it bothers you that much we can change the name to Southern Illinois University Climbers Union or such.

To address two issues at the moment: first I did not think having people come down to Jackson Falls to have fun and maybe clean up a little was such a big deal! Geesh! Our main goal Eric is for people to have a little fun, meet some of us locals and have some more fun and maybe clean up some trash, some of the worse chalked holds and maybe some dirty cracks in the process. The idea about cleaning up the fire pits is excellent and I guess we can do that also. The trail at Jackson is f---ed up at the moment and I wish we had gear to help fix it up a bit but we do not so most likely we will not being doing any work on the trail. The object of this day on April 16th is more to get people together to have fun, to build community and spirit, to bring a greater appreciation of our climbing. I did not think there was proper channels I should have gone through??!? Just please someone tell me what I am doing wrong, or what have we done that requires someone to "mull"?

Now it seems people have been talking trash behind my back. I have not chopped any bolts and probably will never chop any bolts in my lifetime, unless I have the route FA, even then I would not want to damage the rock more. I am not causing mischief, I am not vandalizing or destroying. About the only thing I have been doing is climbing and meeting people, walking around at night introducing myself laughing and having a good time. I have heard from people that others in the Southern Illinois Climbing community think I am some sort of menace when I have never done anything to prove such. People think the SICU is some sort of menace when all we do is organize a freakin trail day! Mistymountainhop has good intentions! Have you ever talked to him? The retro-bolting post was just us fussing and whining like you said Eric, you called me presumptious, ignorant etc etc. and now you invite me to attend the ICA meeting that seems kind of contradictory also but understand people don't always express their opinion correctly online, sometimes online is used a medium to air our emotions, our bad day. Look at people's actions, cause in the end mistymountainhop is a great guy he is not out to destroy; none of us are out to destroy, myself, misty, the SICU we just want to have fun, we are just a bunch of college kids trying to get drunk and climb after studying ourselves to the bone every week.

I know things might seem like we are trying to subvert others but we really are not, we really right now, could careless. I am not trying to start a flame war and no response is necessary Eric or if you want to I hope you PM me or email me because stuff like this does not belong in this thread. I would like to attend the ICA meeting if I am invited but I might not be around as I will most likely be at home spending time with my family before summer semester starts. I hope this answers your questions and I hope you understand we are not out to start a huge war or anything.

Thanks for your insight and the work you have done at Jackson.

Josiah


jds100


Apr 11, 2005, 8:18 AM
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Josiah, it would be helpful if you'd set the record straight. Either the SIUC is a "joke", or it's about having a "trail day". Either you're serious about introducing people to the pleasures of climbing in southern Illinois or you're complaining about crowding at Jackson Falls. You would get in touch with Eric Ulner if you knew how...??? Uh, gee, his website is linked to the Illinois section of the RockClimbing.com Routes database, and you could have requested a call or email in one of your "joking" posts on this site.

Perhaps neither you nor "Misty" have destructive intentions, but you both certainly have little if any foresight, either. It is no excuse to say that you are using the internet "as a medium to air your emotions", when your childish verbal antics risk relationships and access for many more people than just yourselves. If you genuinely cared about the climbing community, you would think ahead about what you say and how you present youreself as some sort of representative of the climbing community in southern Illinois.

It is completely consistent with Eric's and the ICA's objectives, to invite you to attend the meeting that Eric mentioned. It was also consistent with those objectives when, in an earlier post, I suggested that you contact Eric directly and privately. Your excuse (and, by inference, those of "Misty" and any other of your cohorts) is lame and baseless. I suspect that 99% of the climbers you'd meet at Jackson or anywhere else in southern Illinois would know of Eric Ulner, and 3 out of 4 of them would know how to get in contact with him. Jeebuz, pick up a damn phonebook!

You seem to be either confused, or trying to have it both ways: you're just some whiney college kid having fun by causing shit online, or you're honestly but naively trying to be helpful to the cause of climbers' interests in southern Illinois. Figure out which is more important. Then, call Eric, and ask him how you can help, or apologize, or both.

The Forest Service, and most other land management agencies recognize the ICA as the representative of cilmbing interests, and further recognize Eric "unofficially" as the most authoritative and knowlegable climbing activist in the area, and someone with whom they are able to have a consistently productive relationship. Through years (decades) of personnel changes within the various Federal, State and lcoal land and recreation departments, Eric has been the consistent stable voice of climbing, from administration to administration. At this point specifically in Jackson Falls, the official relationship at Jackson is such that "Placement of permanent structures used in climbing and rappeling, including pitons, requires prior approval by the Forest Service..." The Forest Service has typically deferred to the ICA (SICA before that), and Eric has traditionally been their first-line contact.

I strongly discourage anyone -ANYONE- from engaging in any "trail work" or environmental remediation without checking first with Eric Ulner. There are ongoing discussions about the current state of trail development, and equestrian and other user group activity. I doubt that Josiah and "Misty" and most others are even aware of the history of the management changes and developments pertinent to the Jackson Falls area, despite the fact that updates are posted on the website of the Shawnee National Forest. Climbers don't need loosely organized "trail clean ups" (much less "route clean ups") or other activity, well-intended or otherwise, "joking" or otherwise, by "drunk college kids" or otherwise, getting in the way of the genuinely effective, though low-profile (quiet) work that has been done over many years, and continues to be done.

If -IF- you are sincere about being an asset to the climbing community while you are attending SIU at Carbondale, then you should make the efforts to establish constructive contact with Eric (EUlner@VerticalHeartland.com; http://www.verticalheartland.com/). You have the information; now you have no excuses not to do the right thing.


mistymountainhop


Apr 11, 2005, 8:58 AM
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It is evident that alot of the climbing scene around Jackson Falls bears the all to familiar small town mentality that so many people criticize SIU for having. We are trying to help the climbing community, just something small, a get together, if you will where everyone is invited to do some good.
I admit that the trail day might lack in things to do, and that there is not alot of garbage to be picked up as eric stated, but people commonly bitch about the trails being devastated by horses and we would like to do a little something about that.
Climbing at Southern Illinois has been a good experience. But I believe Joe Thesengalds (spelling?) R&I article was right in many respects. NEver have I seen such a climbing community that is so negative.
Im glad to be saying I will be leaving SIU this spring for CU next fall.
I am looking forward to a climbing scene that is not negative and "controlled" by so few people with major anger problems. But until them I will be a proudly doing all that i can to help this small community, even if it has the mentality of a small redneck town.


gym_wench


Apr 11, 2005, 11:00 AM
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I wasn't going to respond. I was going to let you kids dig yourselves a hole, but now I have to say something.

In reply to:
Im glad to be saying I will be leaving SIU this spring for CU next fall.
I am looking forward to a climbing scene that is not negative and "controlled" by so few people with major anger problems.

You think Boulder doesn't have its fair share of climbing restrictions and regulations? There have been several threads on this site alone discussing recent access issues in the Flatirons. And if you think Eric Ulner and the ICA are "negative," just wait until you come into contact with the National Forest Service, avian scientists, and Boulder residents. Because of Eric's and the ICA's hard work and dedication, you haven't had to have any contact with the powers that be. I find it really unfair of both of you "big city" boys to completely dismiss all of Eric's and the ICA's work. If it weren't for them, you wouldn't have this "overcrowded, retro-bolted" area to get drunk and climb at.

As for your "small town, redneck mentality" that you claim SoIll has a reputation for having, I have to say that yours is the only mentality I see that's narrow-minded. Labeling people "rednecks" because they choose to live in a relatively unpopulated area they care deeply about is beyond immature and rude. If you truly cared about SoIll and if you truly cared about getting more people into the sport of climbing, you would have done some research, contacted Eric Ulner, and not run your mouth on a public forum.

I in no way intended this as a "flame," but you guys don't know when to shut your mouths (or proper grammar and spelling).


ericulner


Apr 11, 2005, 11:48 AM
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In reply to:
Eric,

SICU name is a joke, a parody. I never even thought about it until Kathy emailed me, what SICU was. If it bothers you that much we can change the name to Southern Illinois University Climbers Union or such.

To address two issues at the moment: first I did not think having people come down to Jackson Falls to have fun and maybe clean up a little was such a big deal! Geesh! Our main goal Eric is for people to have a little fun, meet some of us locals and have some more fun and maybe clean up some trash, some of the worse chalked holds and maybe some dirty cracks in the process. The idea about cleaning up the fire pits is excellent and I guess we can do that also. The trail at Jackson is f---ed up at the moment and I wish we had gear to help fix it up a bit but we do not so most likely we will not being doing any work on the trail. The object of this day on April 16th is more to get people together to have fun, to build community and spirit, to bring a greater appreciation of our climbing. I did not think there was proper channels I should have gone through??!? Just please someone tell me what I am doing wrong, or what have we done that requires someone to "mull"?

Now it seems people have been talking trash behind my back. I have not chopped any bolts and probably will never chop any bolts in my lifetime, unless I have the route FA, even then I would not want to damage the rock more. I am not causing mischief, I am not vandalizing or destroying. About the only thing I have been doing is climbing and meeting people, walking around at night introducing myself laughing and having a good time. I have heard from people that others in the Southern Illinois Climbing community think I am some sort of menace when I have never done anything to prove such. People think the SICU is some sort of menace when all we do is organize a freakin trail day! Mistymountainhop has good intentions! Have you ever talked to him? The retro-bolting post was just us fussing and whining like you said Eric, you called me presumptious, ignorant etc etc. and now you invite me to attend the ICA meeting that seems kind of contradictory also but understand people don't always express their opinion correctly online, sometimes online is used a medium to air our emotions, our bad day. Look at people's actions, cause in the end mistymountainhop is a great guy he is not out to destroy; none of us are out to destroy, myself, misty, the SICU we just want to have fun, we are just a bunch of college kids trying to get drunk and climb after studying ourselves to the bone every week.

I know things might seem like we are trying to subvert others but we really are not, we really right now, could careless. I am not trying to start a flame war and no response is necessary Eric or if you want to I hope you PM me or email me because stuff like this does not belong in this thread. I would like to attend the ICA meeting if I am invited but I might not be around as I will most likely be at home spending time with my family before summer semester starts. I hope this answers your questions and I hope you understand we are not out to start a huge war or anything.

Thanks for your insight and the work you have done at Jackson.

Josiah

I never saw any indication of an attempt at humor with your supposed joke/parody.

To work on equestrian damage to trails without Forest Service approval is a big deal. In fact, that would be a huge deal. It would undermine years of work.

I've never used the words, "vandalizing" or "destroying" in any of my posts.

I've never accused you or told anyone that you removed bolts from anywhere.



In reply to:
It is evident that alot of the climbing scene around Jackson Falls bears the all to familiar small town mentality that so many people criticize SIU for having. We are trying to help the climbing community, just something small, a get together, if you will where everyone is invited to do some good.
I admit that the trail day might lack in things to do, and that there is not alot of garbage to be picked up as eric stated, but people commonly b---- about the trails being devastated by horses and we would like to do a little something about that.

Climbing at Southern Illinois has been a good experience. But I believe Joe Thesengalds (spelling?) R&I article was right in many respects. NEver have I seen such a climbing community that is so negative.

Im glad to be saying I will be leaving SIU this spring for CU next fall.
I am looking forward to a climbing scene that is not negative and "controlled" by so few people with major anger problems.

But until them I will be a proudly doing all that i can to help this small community, even if it has the mentality of a small redneck town.


"Doing something about that" is what has already been going on if any of you would have bothered to find out. FYI, nothing can be done to a trail in a National Forest without an Environmental Assessment. This is a long process that is REQUIRED by the FOREST SERVICE. Their rules, not mine or the ICA's.

The negativity was displayed prominently and firstly by you, Josiah, and Jacob Teal on the first page of this thread: http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=80262&start=0

"Control" of Jackson Falls is had by the Forest Service. ICA works within the framework of their regulations. If you can't understand that, I don't think I can help you much. As for dealing with anger problems, one could ask Jeff Frizzell what that's like- that is- dealing with all of your anger, Josiah's, and Jacob's toward Jeff because he did something so radical as to bolt some routes at a sport climbing area. Oooo.

As for your "redneck" comment, you're sadly meeting the criteria to be considered a location-origin-snob.


sonus


Apr 11, 2005, 12:24 PM
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Re: Jackson Falls Trail DAY and party! April 16th 2005 [In reply to]
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Eric,

To be fair to Josiah, nowhere in his original post did he mention any working on "equestrian damange to trails". He called his little get-together a 'trail day', but I think this is misleading. I was under the impression that he was simply calling out his friends to meet him at Jackson falls, and clean the place up a little bit, wherever possible.

-Robert


mistymountainhop


Apr 11, 2005, 12:56 PM
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Re: Jackson Falls Trail DAY and party! April 16th 2005 [In reply to]
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1) This thread in no way refers to Jeff Frizzel or material in the previous thread. And it would be wrong to assume I was mad at him, a more appropriate word would be misinformed about the situation. How does a bolting argument relate to this anyways?
2)When refering to no hostility in Boulder, I doubt I could find this sort of hostility toward other climbers anywhere unless chopping and chipping were involved, much less trying to organize a get together. I was not referring to access issues and environmentalists, that does not pertain to this subject either. In the past couple of threads i have certainly seen a good amount of hostility towards more than one person.
3)Redneck mentality did not refer to those living around Jackson, how many of the climbers are from St. Louis or Chicago? Id say the majority. The point is that everyone seems to be so critical about anything that happens.

Some people choose to see only what they want to.

But This is getting wayyy off the point...........
Organic is truly a good guy, he would never do anything to hurt anyone. We decided a get together would be a great idea and do some good for the community at the same time. Instead of being given suggestions or a thumbs up , we are being rediculed for pretty much trying to do good. It might not be the most organized event, but the idea is there and we want to make a difference; get people together. So there you go, thats what this is about. Sorry it had to turn into this.


ericulner


Apr 11, 2005, 1:05 PM
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Re: Jackson Falls Trail DAY and party! April 16th 2005 [In reply to]
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In reply to:
Eric,

To be fair to Josiah, nowhere in his original post did he mention any working on "equestrian damange to trails". He called his little get-together a 'trail day', but I think this is misleading. I was under the impression that he was simply calling out his friends to meet him at Jackson falls, and clean the place up a little bit, wherever possible.

-Robert

Robert,

Any indication of "little" regarding the "get-together" was never inferred. In fact, the contrary.

These are Josiah's words on the previous page. Without face to face conversation, one can only go by the words stated in forum conversations.
[brown]
“...and does what they can to restore some of the impact that has been made”.[/brown]

It was this vague statement that gave me the most cause for concern. And, my guess that trail work was being considered was confirmed with Josiah's subsequent post:
[brown]"...and I wish we had gear to help fix it up a bit but we do not so most likely we will not being doing any work on the trail". [/brown]
And further confirmed with this statement by "mistymountainhop":
[brown]"I admit that the trail day might lack in things to do, and that there is not alot of garbage to be picked up as eric stated, but people commonly bitch about the trails being devastated by horses and we would like to do a little something about that".[/brown]

I don't believe I've been unfair.


ericulner


Apr 11, 2005, 1:19 PM
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Re: Jackson Falls Trail DAY and party! April 16th 2005 [In reply to]
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In reply to:
1) This thread in no way refers to Jeff Frizzel or material in the previous thread. And it would be wrong to assume I was mad at him, a more appropriate word would be misinformed about the situation. How does a bolting argument relate to this anyways?
2)When refering to no hostility in Boulder, I doubt I could find this sort of hostility toward other climbers anywhere unless chopping and chipping were involved, much less trying to organize a get together. I was not referring to access issues and environmentalists, that does not pertain to this subject either. In the past couple of threads i have certainly seen a good amount of hostility towards more than one person.
3)Redneck mentality did not refer to those living around Jackson, how many of the climbers are from St. Louis or Chicago? Id say the majority. The point is that everyone seems to be so critical about anything that happens.

Some people choose to see only what they want to.

But This is getting wayyy off the point...........
Organic is truly a good guy, he would never do anything to hurt anyone. We decided a get together would be a great idea and do some good for the community at the same time. Instead of being given suggestions or a thumbs up , we are being rediculed for pretty much trying to do good. It might not be the most organized event, but the idea is there and we want to make a difference; get people together. So there you go, thats what this is about. Sorry it had to turn into this.

Go ahead and test your theory. When you get to Boulder, get a couple of climbing buddies, go online to the Boulder climbing related message forums, and announce the new Boulder Climbers Union and the equivalent message regarding a trails day in the Chautauqua Park area. You'll be in for a second dose of reality. After that, you can call them all rednecks, too.


gym_wench


Apr 11, 2005, 1:25 PM
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Re: Jackson Falls Trail DAY and party! April 16th 2005 [In reply to]
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When refering to no hostility in Boulder, I doubt I could find this sort of hostility toward other climbers anywhere unless chopping and chipping were involved, much less trying to organize a get together.

You obviously don't get it. No one's upset that you're holding a "get together" down at Jackson. It's the purpose of this "get together", which you both purported to be a "trail cleanup." Organizing a trail cleanup without consulting the Park Service could possibly cause access issues. This is all Eric and others who responded to this thread were concerned about. Feel free to have a party. Feel free to pick up trash when you see it on the trail (I do every time I'm down there). However, don't organize a group effort without consulting the organizations involved in the upkeep of Jackson (that would be the Park Service, the ICA, and the Access Fund. I'm sure if any of these things would have been done, no one would be getting "hostile."

In reply to:
Redneck mentality did not refer to those living around Jackson, how many of the climbers are from St. Louis or Chicago? Id say the majority. The point is that everyone seems to be so critical about anything that happens.


Perhaps you need to look up the history and the definition of the word "redneck." It generally is directed towards people in rural areas, so I apologize for miscontruing your meaning. The reason people from STL or Chicago are getting so upset is because your actions, good intentions aside, could negatively affect access to an outstanding climbing area in 2 states where there are very few.

All in all, I understand what you guys where trying to do. I think it's great that you wanted to get everyone together to hang out, climb, and play some music. However, unless you clear it through all of the proper authorities first, I would, next time, just refer to it as a party.


mingleefu


Apr 11, 2005, 1:27 PM
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Re: Jackson Falls Trail DAY and party! April 16th 2005 [In reply to]
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Regarding the name of the SICU- If it is neither a committee of the ICA nor a group of responsible individuals actively seeking to work within the framework that has proven to be successful for Southern Illinois climbers, the title of that group should be rethought. If you're just a bunch of joking drunk college kids, you ought to understand that such a prank could potentially be harmful. If some random equestrian shows up, and finds you guys drunk and highlining over the falls, while pretending to represent the body of climbers who come to Jackson, that equestrian will not likely know who the ICA is and would not understand the referrence, and would not get the "joke".

There are plenty of "locals" who visit Jackson for sport rappelling and gunshooting and drunken menageries. But they don't purport themselves to be representing southern Illinois' climbers. Your "BYOB" party would be comparable to the locals' parties, except you are pretending to represent a greater body as well. Speaking for myself, I know that I do not want to be represented by drunk slacklining college kids, But I am pretty cool with being represented by local climbers who have an established history of working positively with the Forest service within an established framework.

Jeff Frizzell's recent bolting did not jeopordize climber relations with the Forest service (as some feared it might), but such a "joke" by drunken college kids has the potential. This is the correllation.

Please think carefully about what it is you're really trying to accomplish with this party, and don't transmit the message that it is anything more.


mistymountainhop


Apr 11, 2005, 2:20 PM
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Re: Jackson Falls Trail DAY and party! April 16th 2005 [In reply to]
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In reply to:
In reply to:
1) This thread in no way refers to Jeff Frizzel or material in the previous thread. And it would be wrong to assume I was mad at him, a more appropriate word would be misinformed about the situation. How does a bolting argument relate to this anyways?
2)When refering to no hostility in Boulder, I doubt I could find this sort of hostility toward other climbers anywhere unless chopping and chipping were involved, much less trying to organize a get together. I was not referring to access issues and environmentalists, that does not pertain to this subject either. In the past couple of threads i have certainly seen a good amount of hostility towards more than one person.
3)Redneck mentality did not refer to those living around Jackson, how many of the climbers are from St. Louis or Chicago? Id say the majority. The point is that everyone seems to be so critical about anything that happens.

Some people choose to see only what they want to.

But This is getting wayyy off the point...........
Organic is truly a good guy, he would never do anything to hurt anyone. We decided a get together would be a great idea and do some good for the community at the same time. Instead of being given suggestions or a thumbs up , we are being rediculed for pretty much trying to do good. It might not be the most organized event, but the idea is there and we want to make a difference; get people together. So there you go, thats what this is about. Sorry it had to turn into this.

Go ahead and test your theory. When you get to Boulder, get a couple of climbing buddies, go online to the Boulder climbing related message forums, and announce the new Boulder Climbers Union and the equivalent message regarding a trails day in the Chautauqua Park area. You'll be in for a second dose of reality. After that, you can call them all rednecks, too.

Actually some rc.commers had a Lumpy Ridge gathering a year or two ago, and from what I understood it was a success. The difference between them and us is that they KNEW the park's trail maintenance regulations beforehand and they didnt stay at Lumpy, due to rules against it. If we cant have a trail day then fine, well have a climbing gathering. Would that stop the bickering?


ericulner


Apr 11, 2005, 2:40 PM
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Re: Jackson Falls Trail DAY and party! April 16th 2005 [In reply to]
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
1) This thread in no way refers to Jeff Frizzel or material in the previous thread. And it would be wrong to assume I was mad at him, a more appropriate word would be misinformed about the situation. How does a bolting argument relate to this anyways?
2)When refering to no hostility in Boulder, I doubt I could find this sort of hostility toward other climbers anywhere unless chopping and chipping were involved, much less trying to organize a get together. I was not referring to access issues and environmentalists, that does not pertain to this subject either. In the past couple of threads i have certainly seen a good amount of hostility towards more than one person.
3)Redneck mentality did not refer to those living around Jackson, how many of the climbers are from St. Louis or Chicago? Id say the majority. The point is that everyone seems to be so critical about anything that happens.

Some people choose to see only what they want to.

But This is getting wayyy off the point...........
Organic is truly a good guy, he would never do anything to hurt anyone. We decided a get together would be a great idea and do some good for the community at the same time. Instead of being given suggestions or a thumbs up , we are being rediculed for pretty much trying to do good. It might not be the most organized event, but the idea is there and we want to make a difference; get people together. So there you go, thats what this is about. Sorry it had to turn into this.

Go ahead and test your theory. When you get to Boulder, get a couple of climbing buddies, go online to the Boulder climbing related message forums, and announce the new Boulder Climbers Union and the equivalent message regarding a trails day in the Chautauqua Park area. You'll be in for a second dose of reality. After that, you can call them all rednecks, too.

Actually some rc.commers had a Lumpy Ridge gathering a year or two ago, and from what I understood it was a success. The difference between them and us is that they KNEW the park's trail maintenance regulations beforehand and they didnt stay at Lumpy, due to rules against it. If we cant have a trail day then fine, well have a climbing gathering. Would that stop the bickering?

Such gatherings as the Lumpy one are successfully done each year at climbing areas across the country. Nice to see that you're recognizing the difference. Climbers gathering, drinking, slacklining, etc. Doesn't that already go on every weekend? Have fun. And again, fire pit cleaning really does go a long way to put a clean face on the main area. That's the first thing forest officials notice when they pull up and park.


Partner tgreene


Apr 11, 2005, 2:52 PM
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Re: Jackson Falls Trail DAY and party! April 16th 2005 [In reply to]
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I'm glad that I'm no longer living in Illinois, and having to "conform" to the ideologies of an elitist few (Eric, Jeff, etc.). What Organic and his buddy have set out to do, is NO DIFFERENT than what is done all the time by church & scouting groups, as a way of CLEANING UP the environment... I should know, as I've been involved in this many, many times over the years. Hell, I once took a leave from work, to help cleanup the largest inland oil spill in US history!

The difference being that here we have a select few that have proclaimed themselves to be the "Go To Guys", and as such, they feel it necessary to take it upon themselves to be the local Rent-A-Cop equivilant of the climbing community. Sure, we all know that Eric and Jeff have busted their asses over the years on our behalf, but don't ever think for a minute that it's all as selfless as they choose to make it sound, because everyone has an agenda.

I have to ask what the hell is wrong w/ setting out to pick up a bunch of trash in a a state forest, doing some climbing , and having a bit of a party afterwards..? If this is truly so upsetting and devastating to so many of you, then maybe you should stick with stamp collecting! The last time I was there, there was trash all over the trails (more the top than the bottom), from one end to the other. You name it; from bottles & cans, to wrappers and used tampons & condoms.

There is plenty of trash, but maybe if you overbearing Rent-A-Cops spent more time helping to pick it up, and less time stressing in meetings about trivial bullshit, there just might be less!

Organic: You guys should check out the caving community as well. While there are still a few overbearing self appointed assholes, the community at large loves to party and pick up trash. Also, you would love Oozefest, because it is just that! ;)

-Tim

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