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fernregan
Apr 21, 2005, 2:01 AM
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Today, I was on a climb called Frogland 5.8- in Red Rocks. Knowing that it is a popular route, my partner and I got up early and arrived at the base behind a group of 3. Somewhere beyond the first pitch another group of 3 arrived, this one a guided party. This guide, let's call him Frogman, boasted of climbing this route over 100 times. His clients had never. Frogman was a very impatient guide. Even though my party and the party ahead of us was making good time, Frogman could not wait. He passed us even while my leader was still on lead, he clipped bolts that were allready in use, he instructed his clients to climb 5 feet behind me as I started up the 5th pitch. I could not manuever past the bolt without first unclipping his gear, I could not wiggle my way up the chimney without first fighting with his ropes and then I had to use his feet for holds. Why couldn't this guide just wait on the big ledges like regular climbers do?
WHAT WOULD YOU DO?
1) booty his gear
2) step on his fingers
3) say rude things under your breath
4) badmouth him to his clients
5) piss on him from above
6) make a post on rc.com
7) contact Jackson Mountain Guides and complain about Frogman who guided Frogland on April 20, 2005
(This post was edited by fernregan on Nov 18, 2008, 6:23 PM)
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crazyj
Apr 21, 2005, 2:04 AM
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Did he ask before he passed? If not, you should have slit his throat after the climb.
I've been guided and climbed around people being guided. All of my experiences with guides have been generally pleasant.
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andrewbanandrew
Apr 21, 2005, 2:08 AM
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I am not a guide and know little of it but I think every climber, paid or not, has a responsibility to set a good example for others. This includes ethics. I know that not all of guides' clients are new to climbing, but still, he was basically being a dick, and that's really unprofessional and IMHO unethical.
If I were you I would have just explained to his clients that this is not a normal practice and that he was being rude. I firmly believe that getting revenge is a waste of time, though.
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jcpace
Apr 21, 2005, 2:08 AM
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Sounds like he/she was a little rude. I would have probably offered him a few well chosen expletives to begin with.
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vegastradguy
Apr 21, 2005, 2:08 AM
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if i saw anyone trying to pass me while i was on lead, guide or not, i'd cut his rope after he went by AND take his gear.
thats so inconsiderate and dangerous it makes me want to puke. if you dont call Jackson Hole and complain, I will- that is completely unacceptable behavior for any climber- ESPECIALLY a guide.
edit: for language.
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jeff788
Apr 21, 2005, 2:15 AM
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To me guides do not have any more right to be out there than anyone else. I felt about the same way on Mt. Rainier this summer. The guides and their "cattle trains" acted like they owned the mountain. Guides with attitudes like you are describing are enough to make me want to avoid routes that see a lot of guided groups. I'm not going to open the can of worms about the ethics of guided climbing in general.... but aside from avoiding them, treat them like other climbers. If they are being rude, unsafe, discourteous, etc.. I would not hesitate to let them know.
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gunksgoer
Apr 21, 2005, 2:17 AM
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yeah, what vegastradguy said. Id have been uber pissed, what an asshole.
:evil:
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jimdavis
Apr 21, 2005, 2:20 AM
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Call the guide service! I've seen quite a few top notch guides around, and non of them ever brag about shit like that. They're always very soft spoken, and professional. So, get him fired, f*ck him.
I'd send a letter to the AMGA and black-list him there, too.
I'd have backed off the route and given the sum-bitch 2 flat tires to come down to, if he pulled that shit on me. That or taken a lead fall on him when he went to pass...
Screw him, that's totally unprofessional. I wouldn't be supprised if the company, that he now USED to work for, offered you a free half day of guiding to make up for his lack of professionalism.
Let us know how it goes,
Jim
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mattq331
Apr 21, 2005, 2:21 AM
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Mmmm, I've had a similar problem with a guide from CMS at Lumpy a few years back. Total lack of consideration for anyone else - just pushed through as though he owned the crag.
Sadly, I don't think its an isolated case. As long as the NPS grants monopolies for favoured companies to operate in National Parks, then the incentive to change is small.
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dingus
Apr 21, 2005, 2:26 AM
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You got leap frogged on Frogland. Ironic, don't ya think?
Just shrug it off, let it go man, no need to rat the bastard out or even hold a grudge.
You'll be wiser next time and I bet you make sure you only get passed in moments of your own choosing from here on out?
Climb faster and it won't be an issue. Guided gumbs won't be keeping up to you once you get your shit together. Be efficient and don't screw around on belay ledges. 5 minutes from when the 2nd reaches you and you start up the next lead... 5 MINUTES.
You can also say, "hey Bro, I'm not letting you pass." Be prepared to deal with the confrontation if you go that route.
I prefer to climb fast and leave em in the dust. Now I'm an old punter don't get me wrong, but I've rarely been passed. Most of the time when people ask snidely "you old dudes gonna let us pass if you hold us up?" we never see em again anyway. Not always, but mostly. Seems when dudes feel compelled to make a show at the base of a route about how fast they are, their words are bigger than their balls.
Make efficent climbing your gig and the issue will go away.
Cheers man
DMT
ps. and the rope cutting dude thing? Riiiiiiiiight.
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dingus
Apr 21, 2005, 2:29 AM
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Just keep in mind fellers, most parties get passed cause they're taking 20 or 30 minutes at each belay. Don't bitch if you're sitting there eating a ham sammich and you lose the lead. Your own fault.
5 minutes to switch over. 5 MINUTES.
DMT
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dingus
Apr 21, 2005, 2:33 AM
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In reply to: Call the guide service! I've seen quite a few top notch guides around, and non of them ever brag about s--- like that. They're always very soft spoken, and professional. So, get him fired, f*ck him. I'd send a letter to the AMGA and black-list him there, too.
Don't do that bro. Don't mess with people where they work. Take a deep breath and let it go. He was rude. So what. Don't listen to a bunch of heathens and rabbel rousers on the internet egging you on to get him fired. Next you'll be going after a magazine editor for no good reason other than for the pleasure of the take down.
It isn't worth it. Don't fuck with people where they work.
Karma comes around.
DMT
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jimdavis
Apr 21, 2005, 2:44 AM
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In reply to: Just keep in mind fellers, most parties get passed cause they're taking 20 or 30 minutes at each belay. Don't b---- if you're sitting there eating a ham sammich and you lose the lead. Your own fault. 5 minutes to switch over. 5 MINUTES. DMT
While your arguement has it's merrits...the guide shouldn't have taken the clients on the route in the first place. If he anticipates "needing" to pass a party already on-route, then he shouldn't have started up it in the first place.
He shouldn't have counted on being able to pass the other party. He could have easilly have been stuck behind the other party for a while. Putting yourself in that possition is totally disreguarding your clients and their time.
And guiding beginner clients UNDER AND ABOVE another party is putting your clients and the other party at risk. Let alone leading under and past a leader of unknown ability... :shock:
:idea: If he does guide in the area on a regular basis, he should have had a few back-up routes in mind. And if he really wanted to do that route, then he should have been there earlier.
:arrow: There's no excuse for his actions. Let the guide service know.
Jim
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jimdavis
Apr 21, 2005, 2:47 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Call the guide service! I've seen quite a few top notch guides around, and non of them ever brag about s--- like that. They're always very soft spoken, and professional. So, get him fired, f*ck him. I'd send a letter to the AMGA and black-list him there, too. Don't do that bro. Don't mess with people where they work. Take a deep breath and let it go. He was rude. So what. Don't listen to a bunch of heathens and rabbel rousers on the internet egging you on to get him fired. Next you'll be going after a magazine editor for no good reason other than for the pleasure of the take down. It isn't worth it. Don't f--- with people where they work. Karma comes around. DMT
You think the guide service in question wants people like that representing them?
If I hired a guide like that I'd want my money back.
Cheers,
Jim
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ozclimber
Apr 21, 2005, 2:54 AM
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Ive been running guided climbs in Australia for the best part of 10 years and was totally pissed at reading this thread. This sort of thing gives all guides a bad name. I would definitely contact the company and express your views if you know who he was, most companies would or should be appalled by this type of behavior. Not only has he made this dangerous for all involved (including the clients he is being paid to give a safe climbing experience) but this sort of thing really ruins the climb for anybody on the route trying to have a pleasant day out in the wilderness.
Waiting for other on a route is all part of climbing and he could have easily explained this to his clients while you finished the route or at least the pitch. If he is not happy to do that then a guide should know at least a few other climbs that they could make use of instead.
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alpnclmbr1
Apr 21, 2005, 3:19 AM
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Someone trying to make a buck off the use of a public resource should be respectful of other users of said resource. If anything, deferential, instead of the typical godlike attitude.
He deserves whatever he gets.
In general, being able to not piss people off is part of what it means to be good enough to pass people.
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hangerlessbolt
Apr 21, 2005, 3:19 AM
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Tell the guide like a guide told me...I was getting a bit anxious to get on a route this guy was guiding out at Josh...he turns to me and says,
"There are 6,000 routes in this place...wait or go find another one"
Fair enough
Hey, if you drop in on someone else's wave...be prepared to get your ass whipped
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wzrdgandalf
Apr 21, 2005, 3:44 AM
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I think that its your responsiblity to tell the guide service what that guide did. He was putting YOU in danger by doing that. Climbing below someone as they lead is absolutely stupid. If you dont say anything to the service then you are allowing that guide to possibly hurt someone else if he has that type of attitude in the future.
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hibby11
Apr 21, 2005, 3:48 AM
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A little of #4 and especially #5
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pipsqueekspire
Apr 21, 2005, 4:01 AM
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UN-$()$(@#-BELIEVABLE!!!
I would call his work- I would tell his clients to never use him again and I would tell the park service. He endangered you and his own clients DUMB DUMB DUMB!!! He should never guide with ethics like that!
I ran into this once in yosemite when a guide wanted to SOLO past my leader on a classic climb to set up a TR for clients. We were just out having fun and I was still on the ground and she asked if she could zip up past the leader trailing a rope on her back. I said NO! It was a hand jam route- how are you going to pass him? My partner said no too. So she did it anyway while her clients watched climbed right over me trailing her rope from her butt and it was just hanging right there in front of my face so I grabbed it and didnt let go. I told her over and over again that it was dangerous and rude. She down climbed and BOY was she pissed. I never felt bad about that.
SO- if a party did that to me- especially a guide I would think about clove hitching his rope to a piece and moving on out- your day is ruined anyway. If his is worth his salt he'll figure out how to unstick himself. What an a-hole!!
There is ONE exception to this rule- if it is pitch 14 and getting stormy and I catch up to you and you say no.... I may climb right on by anyway because I think you are now endangering my safety and my clients by being so slow. Really depends on the conditions.
-pip
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climbs4fun
Moderator
Apr 21, 2005, 4:03 AM
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I can pretty much promise that Mark Limage (who runs Jackson Hole in Vegas) wouldn't have approved of the not only rude but dangerous behavior of one of his guides. Call him. I'm sure he'd like to know. PM me if you want the #.
In fact, I'll send him the link to this thread
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vegastradguy
Apr 21, 2005, 4:14 AM
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In reply to: Don't do that bro. Don't mess with people where they work. Take a deep breath and let it go. He was rude. So what. Don't listen to a bunch of heathens and rabbel rousers on the internet egging you on to get him fired. Next you'll be going after a magazine editor for no good reason other than for the pleasure of the take down. It isn't worth it. Don't f--- with people where they work. Karma comes around. DMT
normally i agree with you Dingus, but in this case i have to disagree. That guide's first and ultimate responsibility was the safety of his clients. his actions put them at risk. period. if nothing else, the guide service needs to know that this guide is willing to put his clients lives in jeopardy. a responsible guide would have either waited or retreated, depending on the situation.
its one thing if you're a super efficient party where both members can assume that risk, its another when you're a guide and you are responsible for the safety of people who aren't even capable of recognizing the danger that was present.
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vegastradguy
Apr 21, 2005, 4:14 AM
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bandycoot
Apr 21, 2005, 4:21 AM
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Watch, Dingus was the guide! :lol: Just kidding, of course!
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shiva523
Apr 21, 2005, 4:28 AM
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I'd alert the guide service. I'm sure the guide service would be happy to hear the complaint. That guides practices are dangerous and may cause harm to him and/or the climbers around him, which would be a serious liability and potential law suit, which is the last thing the guide agency would want. Businesses function properly when they're represented by respectful, knowledgeable and safe employees. I sure as hell wouldn't want someone like that working for me. Bottom line, the guide is dangerous. He made some bad calls. If you don't report him for your sake, at least do it for the unfortunate climbers that are going to cross his path in the future.
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