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drac


Jul 4, 2002, 12:11 AM
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safe rappel
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What is the best way to tie two ropes together for a rappel. I have been taught and use the EDK (overhand knot)with 2' tails. From my limitied exp. this is a matter of debate. Also after I tie the EDK is there an advantage to tying another overhand stopper knot near the end of the 2' tails on each strand of rope? Thanks.


bomber


Jul 4, 2002, 12:33 AM
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I would say, use two fishermans knots. Take the end of one rope and tie a fishermans knot around the other rope. Then take the other rope and tie another fishermans knot around the first rope. Once the rope is weighted, the knots will slide together and hold. The only problem with the fishermans knot is that once it is weighted it tends to get really tight and hard to untie. If you don't know what a fishermans knot is, I would say that you should pick up a "how to climb" guide or a knot book.


drac


Jul 4, 2002, 1:09 AM
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Bomber, Thanks. I'm just trying to get an idea what is now the acceptable standard for a two rope rappel. The double fishermen's is still considered bombproof?.What about the EDK would/do you use it? I'll take security over a pain in the butt to untie and I'm not concerned with hang up factors. What it the strongest and safest, a triple fisherman's would probably be best, but is the EDK with 2' tails generally accepatble on this fourm and in the rock climbing world. Most of my two rope rappels have only been about 200'-250' so I don't have to worry about hang up yet. I'm usually on the ground when I pull the rope. Thanks again, I appreciate the advise.


msecoda


Jul 5, 2002, 1:11 PM
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Definitely the double fishemans knot...


beyond_gravity


Jul 5, 2002, 1:27 PM
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I like using an Alpine Butterfly with 2 half-double fishermen's as backups.


biggernhell


Jul 5, 2002, 2:04 PM
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A butterfly with fishermans backups? Doesn't that snag? If it doesn't I may start using it. Its gotta be really bomber. Somebody out there with a load cell, please test this thing and let me know something.

[ This Message was edited by: biggernhell on 2002-07-05 14:05 ]


pelliott


Jul 5, 2002, 2:18 PM
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You must be joking. How would you tie two ropes together with an alpine butterfly? Wouldn't that snag real bad with a loop in it?


newtocalgary


Jul 5, 2002, 2:37 PM
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Although the double fishermans knot is a bomber knot it snags on everything thats why they say to use a overhand knot if you pull a overhand knot over rocks u will see the tails alway end up on top and the bottom of the knot is snag free try it and youll see


biggernhell


Jul 5, 2002, 2:45 PM
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Yeah the overhand is a great snag free way to tie two ropes together. To bad there are so many instances of people falling and dying or I'd use it myself
Seriously, their is an ongoing discussion in the Aid forum that should (almost)clear this up for everyone.
Good Luck


stevematthys


Jul 5, 2002, 4:09 PM
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i use the triple fisherman's knot


aelita


Jul 5, 2002, 4:17 PM
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I've used and have seen many others use a square fisherman's with double fisherman's as backups on the tails. Never snagged before as the square knot tends to be fairly flat... I have read that square knots drastically reduce the strength of the rope (Raleigh - Knots and Ropes for Climbers) but the same source advises to use the fisherman's variation of the square knot saying that it works well for joining two rappell ropes, is easy to untie and safe, provided you back it up.

Just my 2cents.


jt512


Jul 5, 2002, 4:21 PM
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Quote:
Yeah the overhand is a great snag free way to tie two ropes together. To bad there are so many instances of people falling and dying or I'd use it myself


That is just plain bullshit. The EDK is arguably the best rappel knot. It is very strong, less prone to getting hung up, and unties easily after it has been weighted. The double fisherman's is strong too, but doesn't have the other advantages.

Just be sure that when you tie the EDK that you dress it properly -- no strands should cross -- and tighten it well by pulling separately on each of the four strands.

-Jay


k9rocko


Jul 5, 2002, 4:46 PM
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Edited for clarification:

This knot I am discussing is formed by tying a figure 8 in one rope, and retracing the rope through the opposite path (tails would point in opposite directions now....) The resulting tails are tied in double fisherman backups (around the sister rope)... Please see a printed "how to" climbing book before assuming my description is good..

This knot is illustrated in better detail in the book:
    How to Rock Climb!, John Long, Chockstone Press. p. 126 (may vary by edition)


original post below::

I use a follow through figure 8 (both tails are opposed with 8' tails), then with two double fisherman backups.

I am interested to hear of other's opinions on this knot(s)?? I agree with the fact this is a bulky not... but was the preference of my old partner, and I myself see nothing wrong with it...

K9rocko

[ This Message was edited by: k9rocko on 2002-07-06 21:41 ]


jt512


Jul 5, 2002, 5:00 PM
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Quote:
I use a follow through figure 8 (both tails are opposed with 8' tails), then with two double fisherman backups.


That's probably about as bombproof a rappel knot as you can tie. The disadvantage is that, as you say, it is bulky. A little time-consuming, too, I suppose.

-Jay


biggernhell


Jul 6, 2002, 1:34 PM
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jt512, don't take my word for it. Go to the aid forum and read the article about the recent death in Zion.


apollodorus


Jul 6, 2002, 2:24 PM
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The double fisherman's can be a real bitch to untie, especially if bounce on the ropes. And since most trad climbers don't carry a hammer to tap on the knot to loosen it, a multiple rap descent can quickly turn into a major epic. The EDK is the way to go. And don't tie the tails. Leave them about 6" or longer. The less there is to catch on flakes and in cracks, the better.


mobius


Jul 6, 2002, 9:03 PM
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Ive always used the tripple fishermans, but the retraced figure-8 with fisherman backups sounds really good, never used it though....I'll have to go try...
Matthew~


rush


Jul 8, 2002, 7:36 PM
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I use the double fisheman knot, and never had a problem with it. It's simple to make and its not that hard to untie.
But I think the one you use is pretty safe also.

Climb on


kevlar


Jul 15, 2002, 3:18 PM
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Just for the record...I have been using the " double fishermans " and feel safe with this settup...climbing is ment to be fun...so dont get on the edge with "doubt" practice your knots and rope techniques in the chair next to the truck or campfire first...before hanging on the short end...I have learned that there are many correct ways to do things in climbing in my short time of enjoying this sport...but bottom line...don't try to learn any rope knots in a panic...an when you choose...whatever knot to use practice it over and over several times so you can do it without hesitation on the rock...

Happy climbing...john


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