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web_slave
Apr 27, 2005, 12:41 PM
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From IC Wales
In reply to: Instructor fined after climbing fall Apr 27 2005 A woman fell on rocks, leaving her paralysed from the waist down, after a climbing instructor shouted 'let go of the rope'. Health worker Lisa Brennin, 29, plunged 30ft from a quarry face at Trevor Rocks, near Llangollen, during an introductory course on mountaineering and abseiling, a court heard yesterday. Newly-qualified John McDermott was fined £1,500 with £500 in a case brought under health and safety laws. The 42-year-old had pleaded guilty to exposing the public to risks by failing to maintain proper control over climbing. Barrister Julian Shaw, prosecuting for Denbighshire county council, said Ms Brennin and two other women were with a 12-strong party when the incident happened two years ago. Ms Brennin was the eighth person to come down the rock face and her ropes were being held by two female colleagues. The instruction 'let go of the rope' had been intended as a confidence-building exercise so she could lean back or hold on to the rocks and have confidence in her fellow climbers. But all three women misunderstood the instruction and all let go, leading to her fall. McDermott of Holyhead Road, Llangollen, a climber nearly all his adult life, had recently obtained a single pitch award, the basic level required to supervise and instruct novices. It may have been the first group he'd instructed since obtaining his qualification. Mr Shaw said because of inadequate or perfunctory briefing by McDermott, those on the belay had failed to understand the crucial importance of not letting go of the rope. Andrew Kinnier, for the defence, said McDermott had given up his work in climbing, which had also involved helping adolescents with behavioural problems. Working in the outdoors had been 'his dream job' but he was now a lorry driver, the court heard. Mr Kinnier said none on the climb that day had said they were unhappy or needed clarification. 'He believed he had done everything he could,' added the barrister. A climbing expert wrote in a testimonial, 'John cared about people and safety.' Magistrates were told that a massive insurance claim had been made on behalf of Ms Brennin, although not against McDermott. It would include a lifetime's loss of earnings, whole-life care and loss of amenity. Court chairwoman Susan Clark told the defendant, 'You obviously didn't make it clear who you were talking to when you said let go of the rope. We appreciate you feel much regret and remorse.'
Come on, if I could name one lesson thats been beaten into my head by every instructor I've ever learned from, it has to be "never let go of the rope". Apparently this guy hadn't got that point across. This is an unfortunate accident that could have been easilly prevented.
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overlord
Apr 27, 2005, 12:53 PM
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well, i guess he should have named the person that was supposed to let go.
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tradmanclimbs
Apr 27, 2005, 12:59 PM
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yet another case ay armchair RC.commers loudly proclaiming that "i would never have been that stupid" fact is it was an accident and there are stupid people out there. So I will Jump in here. I can eaisly see this happening. the studen't is being lowered and they have death grip on the rope, you just want to get them to relax and sit back. who would ever have thought that the belayer would have been stupid enough to let go of the rope :roll: So the injstructor should have addressed the person being lowered by name to avoid confusion. the stupid belayer could have still let go of the rope. so you have someone backing up the belay just in case. It sounds like this was the case as it described all 3 women letting go of the rope. It sounds a bit more like really bad luck to me now. this guy drew an extra stupid batch for his first class as both belayers let go of the rope :roll: It still happened on his watch so it is his fault. he should have realized the level of stupidity he was dealing with and and had a more experienced belayer or a more experienced person backing up the belay.
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climb_in
Apr 27, 2005, 1:14 PM
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how stoo-pid do you have to be to let go of the rope? granted the guide never specified who he was speaking to when he gave the instruction to let go, but come on!!!
who in their right mind would believe that if they were holding a rope, and another person's safety depended on that rope being controlled, that a verbal command of "let go" (not sure if if i quoted that right, could have been "let go of the rope") would actually apply to them?
i know somebody got seriosly injured and it truly is sad. and the guide is responsible for the safety of the group and should have covered his butt by specifying who he wanted to "let go of the rope." but at some point in the guided climb the participants who are learning need to assess the dangers of the situation and assume responsibility for their own safety.
just because you sign a form and pay oodles of cash for a guide doesn't mean you can leave your brain in the car. if you can't keep yourself and the others around you safe, stay away from our sport.
my two cents
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jimthespider
Apr 27, 2005, 1:24 PM
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This makes me think of something I always tell my partners. When communicating with your partner use their name. For example, "JIM...Off belay!". This cuts down on potentially dangerous confusion when climbing near other parties. I have seen too many near accidents inside and outside caused by people thinking their partner said, "take" or "off belay" when it was actually someone climbing nearby.
In this case if he had said, "Lisa, let go of the rope" she would still be walking probably.
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jackflash
Apr 27, 2005, 1:31 PM
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Some people have an amazing ability to disregard all common sense on the say-so of authority.
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blackgoldgator
Apr 27, 2005, 1:34 PM
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AGREED! wern;t these two other ladies friends of the poor lady that fell? i mean if your friend was hanging there by the thread that you where controlling, wouldnt you think twice or thrice about it. Its like saying, you are going bungee jumping, and your friend gets tied into the cord. And the instructor yells "jump off the bridge" do you and your friend both jump off?
Maybe a stupid analoge, maybe really stupid. I may even get burned for it. but my two cents are worth the post.
BGG
edited for spelling
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cosmokramer
Apr 27, 2005, 2:03 PM
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GRIGRI?
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mattq331
Apr 27, 2005, 2:03 PM
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Wow.
What a whole lot of judgement. In one post, 5 various uses of the word "stupid". :roll:
It's easy to criticize, but I think anyone who has been in the situation of instructor probably is more inclined to breath a sigh of relief and say "there but for the grace of God, go I..."
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cosmokramer
Apr 27, 2005, 2:05 PM
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Why weren't they using a grigri?
A lot more noob-proof (under supervision of course) than an atc or an 8.
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overlord
Apr 27, 2005, 2:33 PM
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In reply to: AGREED! wern;t these two other ladies friends of the poor lady that fell? i mean if your friend was hanging there by the thread that you where controlling, wouldnt you think twice or thrice about it. Its like saying, you are going bungee jumping, and your friend gets tied into the cord. And the instructor yells "jump off the bridge" do you and your friend both jump off? Maybe a stupid analoge, maybe really stupid. I may even get burned for it. but my two cents are worth the post.
LOL. that was a good one.
and it never ceases to amaze how stupid can people be. like the woman who wanted to sue mcdonalds because she burnt herself with hot coffe and there was no sign for "hot" on the paper cup.
i believe theres a saying that goes something like "human stupidity knows no limits".
and the instructur was unwise too. he shouldve been the one backing up the belay, not some noob.
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keinangst
Apr 27, 2005, 2:39 PM
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Someone didn't say Simon Says!
busted.
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keinangst
Apr 27, 2005, 2:41 PM
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In reply to: Why weren't they using a grigri? A lot more noob-proof (under supervision of course) than an atc or an 8.
I gathered that it was a fireman's belay. The two--count 'em--two people who were in charge of that lady's safety apparently failed to react upon realizing that they were idiots.
30' down a dual rope rap allows a decent amount of time to do something. Unfortunately, that "something" was to get out of the way, I assume.
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wilcox510
Apr 27, 2005, 3:08 PM
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i also thought it sounded like a firemans belay, but regardless, i hate when people learn how to belay with a gri-gri. so many of them learn crappy technique and don't realize the importance of not letting go with the brake hand. when i used to teach total beginners (especially kids) how to belay we would often have a back up belayer as well. someone, preferably with experience, holding the brake end of the rope with some slack, so the belayer can do their job, but the back up can pull the rope into the braking position if the belayer screws up. i think something along this line is a much better way to teach people to be safe belayers than using a gri-gri. i have actually heard people instructing beginners with a gri gri saying "if they fall, just let go and the gri-gri will catch them". im sure thats not the norm, buts thats setting up a horrible habit. regardless, sad story that all boils down to miscommunication.
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a_guy_named_smith
Apr 27, 2005, 3:43 PM
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quote]
and it never ceases to amaze how stupid can people be. like the woman who wanted to sue mcdonalds because she burnt herself with hot coffe and there was no sign for "hot" on the paper cup.
take Stella Liebeck--81 year old woman in Albuquerque, NM.
you do realize she got THIRD degree burns from the coffee and was hospitalized. Yes she was put in a hospital because of burns suffered from coffee. She needed frigging skin grafts.
and it gets better, after asking that her bills be paid ( i would want them to after needing skin grafts from a coffee burn) Mc D wouldn't pay
So she sued them.
Oh yeah, then add in that McDee's had known about this problem. By the time of this lawsuit they had settled 500+ cases of burns from coffee and STILL continued to serve coffee 20 degrees hotter than any other restaurant chain in the US
while there are a lot of asinine lawsuits in our country, this woman's was not one of them.
"and it never ceases to amaze how stupid can people be" to believe the hype against 81 year old woman who needed skin grafts from spilt coffee.
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markc
Apr 27, 2005, 4:01 PM
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The article is vague on a couple of points. First off, I agree that she seemed to be rappelling, with two people at the bottom providing a fireman's belay. It's not clear where the instructor was at that point, but I assume he was at the top of the crag checking people as they started down. This would be a poor location to communicate with the person rappelling or the group at the base (or observing their actions).
With a group of 12, I'd think you'd want another instructor to assist, back up the belay at the base, etc. This would certainly be the case for a new guide. An experienced climber does not make an experienced guide. If he was the only instructor, a back-up top-belay would be more safe than an unsupervised fireman's belay by a novice. 12 people for a new instructor sounds really overwhelming. I'm surprised the guide service wouldn't send a senior guide to observe and assist initially.
This is an unfortunate accident all the way around. I don't think we can call utter novices stupid for misunderstanding directions yelled by an instructor to no one in particular. If you want the rappeller to release the rope, I'd first instruct the belayers to provide tension, then yell something like, "Rappeller, let go of the rope." However, it seems dangerous to instruct novices to release their brake hand 30' off the deck with novices at the base then responsible for their safety.
As in most accidents, it sounds like there were a series of smaller mistakes along the way that contributed to the eventual fall. Having a better system in place (including more staff) and clear communication may have prevented such an unhappy end for all parties.
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cfnubbler
Apr 27, 2005, 4:03 PM
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This is clear cut. The instructor is at fault- when working in that capacity, the bottom line is that client security is 100% the responsibility of the instructor. Presumably, whether it was a fireman's or a standard belay, and regardless of the device chosen, he made the judgment call that the belayers had the requisit skills and common sense to provide an adaquate belay. He was wrong in this instance, and bares full responsibility.
I'm not trying to judge the guy- this sounds like a horrible accident that could easily have happened to anyone. I really feel for both the victim and instructor. But he accepted the responsibility by assuming the role of instructor. Sad for all involved, but that's how it goes. Comes with the territory.
Rule number one in guiding: Always assume the client is trying to kill themselves.
Rule number two: Always assume the client is trying to kill you.
Rule number three: See rules one and two....
-Nubbler
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darkside
Apr 27, 2005, 4:05 PM
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In reply to: Some people have an amazing ability to disregard all common sense on the say-so of authority.
In reply to: GRIGRI?
and
Why weren't they using a grigri?
A lot more noob-proof (under supervision of course) than an atc or an 8.
Having said that, in more general terms, a GriGri is a great device but is just one tool available to a climber. In some situations it excels and in others, a different tool will excel.
It is too easy to try and place blame. It is even easier to place blame on a single facet of an accident. In any case, blame is irrelevant to most people whereas evaluating and learning is very relevant. A non judgemental evaluation will do more to prevent similar accidents in future.
It is a fact that most accidents do not have a single cause but rather a synnergy of circumstances. While this particular case could indeed have been avoided, it is oversight and misfortune that played a bigger part than stupidity. Was it really stupidity that made the belayers let go, or rather a trust in the instructor that told them to let go. OK so the instuctor wasn't talking to them but a breakdown in communication was yet another factor in this whole synnergy. If just one of the three had not let go of the ropes. There were other measures that could have been utilized yet weren't such as an independant belay line, or a rappel back up Prussik. Yet more factors in the whole synergy. It could have been made more clearer about the role a belayer using a firemans belay has in the safety system. This new instructor could have been taught to do rappel classes in such a way. Don't forget that such factors are not reported here and may be just as relevant. Chances are that removing one of the above factors would have altered the chain of events and no accident would have happened.
That creates another scenario though. At some point in the future, one of the people involved may have an accident when synergy again makes them complacent. This is also relevant to you the reader here. Just because you have done something dozens, hundreds, even thousands of times, doesn't make it safe. Think about what you are doing. You may have been lucky so far in something you are currently doing. The odds will stack up against you though eventually so be careful in everything you do and don't get complacent. While many accidents are attributed to pilot error (this accident included apparently) it usually takes a number of factors to combine to create the accident.
Ask yourselves what aspects could have been done differently, then implement them in what you do while climbing. Remember that accident reports like this are not about laying blame but about evaluating them to stop future accidents
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wolfram
Apr 27, 2005, 4:08 PM
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In reply to: Some people have an amazing ability to disregard all common sense on the say-so of authority.
This is exactly right. We can all say it was stupid, but I think this gives a clearer reason why it happened.
Question authority! (I think I've heard that before).
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zoratao
Apr 27, 2005, 4:11 PM
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I think smitty hit the nail on the head. It seems to me that speculation without knowing the details/facts is impossible. Especially when you are throwing around disparaging remarks about people and circumstances that you don't know the details of.
I think ultimately the responsibility lies with the leader, no matter what. But when it comes to assessing blame how do you do it. From the details I have seen I would guess around 70% thats ten percent for each of participants that did what they shouldn't have and the rest goes to the honcho. (This again is a guess, who knows all the details from reading a one page synopsis?)
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climb_in
Apr 27, 2005, 4:28 PM
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hmm, very eloquently put by darkside. it's so easy to try to lay blame when we read someone else's accident report, when we should really be learning from it instead.
still think the noobs were incompetent, but to a lesser extent.
(edit added after post)
but it was still the guide's decision to put incompetent people in such a dangerous position, so all we can do is learn from their mistake.
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rgold
Apr 27, 2005, 5:12 PM
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It is easy to toss around blame after the fact, by I have a lot of sympathy for everyone in this tragedy. The fact of the matter is that when you put people in an unfamiliar (and potentially dangerous situation) under the direction of an authority, they are likely to do what the authority says. But the person in authority, with all the experience that goes with the position, is quite capable of overlooking interpretations of his or her instructions that are, literally, unthinkable for an experienced person.
I had a very similar experience to this when I was guiding a group of high-school students years ago. We were at the top of the climb and the students were coiling the ropes. One of the ropes was very kinked and the student who was trying to coil it was struggling. So I said to him,
"if you throw the rope over the edge of the cliff, the kinks will unwind and it will be easier to coil."
Of course, he threw the entire rope off the cliff, not just an end. It went down half way and hung up on a series to twigs, ledges, flakes, and trees. We're standing at the top, looking down at this rope half-way down the cliff. My mouth is open, but no sound is coming out. I'm thinking that, after all, he did exactly what I told him to do. His gaze is moving slowly back and forth from the rope to my face and back to the rope. I still haven't uttered a word. Finally he looks at me and says,
"That wasn't what you meant, was it?"
Of course, this incident was just an inconvenience; no one was hurt. We all had a good laugh. I was fortunate enough to learn, at very little expense, to weigh my words from the perspective of someone without my knowledge. Not everyone has the gift of such an opportunity. My heart goes out all the victims of this accident.
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robdotcalm
Apr 27, 2005, 5:27 PM
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In reply to: Some people have an amazing ability to disregard all common sense on the say-so of authority.
About 20 years ago, I was teaching 2 people in a beginner’s class, say, Joe and Susan. We had had a session on tying knots, belaying, and spent a couple of hours on a 30 ft. cliff where they rappelled and followed me on a crack climb.
To ease them into real climbing, we were on a 5.4, 3-pitch route at Vedauwoo (Walt’s Wall). At the end of the second pitch, there are a pair of belay bolts on a 1-foot wide ledge, now some 75 ft. off the deck. I led, and Joe followed me to the belay bolts. When he arrived at the bolts, I told him to clip into the bolts. I kept him on belay while I shouted to Susan that we would be ready for her to climb in a couple of minutes. I turned back and looked at Joe. He was untied from the climbing rope and not clipped into the bolts. I immediately girth hitched a sling to my belay loop and clipped the other end into his belay loop. I told him to tie back into the rope and while he was doing that I clipped him into the bolts, and didn’t say anything more. Susan then followed up to the bolts. After she was clipped in, I asked Joe what I had told him to do (I had decided I must have said something wrong). He said, “You said, ‘Clip into the bolts.’” I asked him what that meant, and he said it meant to untie from the rope and then clip into the bolts. I asked if he didn’t think that was dangerous since we were 75 ft. off the ground and on a narrow ledge. He said it seemed very dangerous. So I asked why did you do it. He said, “You’re the instructor and I should follow your orders.” I told him he had just explained the rise to power of Hitler.
Ever since then when I’ve taught beginners, I tell them that story and that if they think I’m doing something or dangerous, please tell me. I said the punishment in climbing is more severe than being sent to the penalty box for 5 minutes. 95% of the time when they think I’m doing something, I won’t be, but I sure want to be called on that other 5% of the time. I’m acquainted with a famous guide, who always relates my experience to his beginning climbers.
Joe was a good student other than for this incident. He climbed well and safely for the rest of the day and for a second day of the class.
Cheers,
Rob.calm
P.S. When I teach beginners how to rappel, I always have them belayed from the top of the cliff, where I’m located usually doing the belaying myself or having an experienced climber belay them. I can’t imagine allowing beginners belay a beginner on something so hazardous as rappelling. About 12 years ago, a reasonably competent guide was teaching beginning climbing to a church youth group at Lumpy Ridge. He started a rappel while belayed from above by one of the beginners. The guide told the belayer to hold him tight. When he did so the guide took his brake hand off the rope to show the beginner how well the belay worked. The beginner freaked out and let go of the rope. The guide started falling and wasn’t able arrest himself. He suffered brain injuries leading to blindness. Yes, the beginner is trying to kill and then kill himself.
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the_tall_guy
Apr 27, 2005, 6:21 PM
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Boy, what a sad, scary thread! I've guided just a few times, fortunately with no problems. I was really spooked once, however, when I saw a "guide" leading a couple up a route at Lover's Leap, California. He got to a ledge on a route nearby, placed a SINGLE stopper for an anchor, and called on his clients. This just seemed really dangerous to me.
Another story from the Leap: A guide was demonstrating a leader fall on the first pitch of Haystack (5.8), ripped some key gear and died on impact. Gee, I guess his class learned a lot that day. This accident is especially vexing because that pitch has some of the best gear placements on the west coast!
Falling is dangerous. Avoid it!
Scott
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wolfram
Apr 27, 2005, 11:23 PM
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In reply to: He said, “You’re the instructor and I should follow your orders.” I told him he had just explained the rise to power of Hitler. .
In a somewhat strange coincidence, I got into a discussion about the Stanley Milgram experiment today. (coincidence because I was thinking about this accident when it came up). In any case...if you do not know it...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment
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