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rush


Jul 4, 2002, 7:33 AM
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Carrying an extra belay/rappel device
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Ever since I saw my friends belayer drop his ATC (almost hitting me!) I carry an extra belay device. How many of you do that also?


billcoe_


Jul 4, 2002, 7:49 AM
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No need to carry an extra ATC. A locking pear shaped carabiner will work with a Munter hitch for rappelling or belaying should you find yourself without any carabiners to do a carabiner brake rappel.

(BUT) If you find yourself totally naked, no carabiners for the said carabiner brake rappell and without even a harness, you can still do a dulfersitz rappell, but plan on skin grafts to replace the burned skin
For belaying, body belays still work, but see the comments on skin grafts above and don't let your partner take a screamer while leading if you're sitting or standing there naked giving him/her a hip belay. Hip belays are very capable of holding a fall if your body is position correctly, make sure the rope is not on bare skin. I highly recommend you learn it. I was using it just last week on the last pitch to top out on a route that I knew my partner was going to fly up as that pitch was so easy. Hip belays work a hell of a lot better than an ATC in that situation. And if you need to rappel, use a carabiner brake. It works as good or better than most ATCs anyway.

Moral of this story, learn all you can, don't drop your rope, don't climb naked and you'll be OK and it won't even slow you down when you only drop an ATC.

Regards:

Bill

[ This Message was edited by: billcoe_ on 2002-07-27 19:46 ]


phil_nev


Jul 4, 2002, 8:35 AM
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Ass said above, all you need is a large paer shaped beaner and know how to use a munter hitch, u can belay and rap with it.
Phil


rockjock04


Jul 4, 2002, 10:53 AM
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Don't forget to mention that munter hitches ARE UIAA certified for rappel and belay but be aware, they do twist the rope. I believe that figure eights also do to on both belay and rapelling. I have 1 ATC but I dont care if it falls because all there is in ohio is 25 foot top ropes. Have fun.


natec


Jul 4, 2002, 11:12 AM
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I believe it is Mountaineering: Freedom of the Hills that also gives the "carabiner wrap" as an option. It is basically three twists of the rappelling rope(s) around the spine of a large belay (hms, pearbiner), loaded so that if they contact the screwlock the wraps will tighten not loosen it.

This method has worked for me although it twists the rope as much as a munter. It is harder to screw up than a munter though.


biggernhell


Jul 4, 2002, 11:14 AM
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Lean all of the different techniques. Biner brake, figure eight, munter hitch, dulfrsitz, they all work. The best of the emergency bunch is the biner brake though. Believe me you never want to get into the rope snarling mess that comes from raping and belaying with a muter hitch or even a figure eight. This said the best technique is the one that you are the most confident in. They're all dangerous if you botch the set up. Best advice: don't drop sh it.


Partner missedyno


Jul 5, 2002, 5:54 AM
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"raping and belaying with a muter hitch"

oh my. maybe i WILL carry an extra belay device instead....


rush


Jul 5, 2002, 6:56 AM
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Let just add something that didn't come clear at first. The guy I mentioned droped the ATC didn't drop his own, but his partners. That is what made me think about carrying an extra device. Ropes are expensive here in Brazil, so i rather carry a little extra weight than twist my rope



doosh


Jul 5, 2002, 7:04 AM
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This assumes you are carrying one to begin with...


mauta


Jul 5, 2002, 7:29 AM
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Hi,

I think some of you are exagerating a bit about the cons of belaying (not rappeling) using the Munter Hitch.
In Argentina, and also in Europe as far as i know, it is VERY COMMON to belay using the Munter Hitch. Of course, you are right that it kinks more the rope and wears it quickier.
But, on the other hand, IT IS A VERY SAFE BELAYING METHOD (UIAA approved), PROVIDING AN EXCELLENT BRAKING FORCE.
That said, i beleive an ATC (or similar device) is probably a better option, but do not give the old Munter Hitch a so bad reputation !!!!.

EVERY SERIOUS CLIMBER MUST KNOW HOW TO BELAY USING THE MUNTER HITCH, in my opinion.


JUAN


doosh


Jul 5, 2002, 7:37 AM
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I am a climber, but I can't ever be serious!

What is wrong with a butt belay? WHO ARE YOU PEOPLE?


fingerjam


Jul 5, 2002, 11:06 AM
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I carry a ATC and a figure 8. I like the ATC for beleying and the figure 8 for rapping. whatever works!
laterz


climbinganne


Jul 5, 2002, 11:16 AM
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      HELLO...CRAZYWACKY
This is the point that you come here and tell your story of how you almost killed me in Big Cottonwood Canyon...you doofuss!!!!

edited cause i messed up the bold type.....

[ This Message was edited by: climbinganne on 2002-07-05 11:18 ]


rocknpowda


Jul 5, 2002, 11:19 AM
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Billcoe_ . . .
Climbing naked is fun, belaying naked isn't. Bleaying a naked partner(harness only) of the opposite sex is fun, Belaying a naked partner of the same sex (unless that's your thing) isn't fun.


crazywacky


Jul 5, 2002, 12:39 PM
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How did I "almost kill" you in BC?

I thought it almost hit Corey?

Ok..OK..so here it is..

We were climbing Sixpence at Storm Mountain in Big Cottonwood.

I get to the top, and go to clip my daisy into to anchors so I can clean the draws from the top and prepare to rap off.

Unfortunately I had clipped my ATC into the locking crab that I was using or my daisy. When I unclipped the daisy from the gerar loop, the ATC, which I had conveniently not noticed when unclipping it, started it's earthward journey of approximately 70-80 feet.

So I ended up being lowered off, and told by Corey about the near miss of an ATC at terminal velocity bouncing off the rock about 5 feet or so above him, zinging in front of his face, and being caught by Richard.

So uh, a second belay device is a good thing. CLimbing after 26 hours in a car is probably a bad thing.

But I still don't recall the part where Anne almost died....


Oh well, I'm sure she can elaborate....


climbinganne


Jul 5, 2002, 12:40 PM
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    You didn't even know you lost it...Corey didn't even see it coming, it took a bounce and headed towards me...THANK GOD DUCK WAS THERE...or we all would have died!!!

Hey Pete...I got that, even with all the misspelling!!!

[ This Message was edited by: climbinganne on 2002-07-05 12:45 ]


suicidal_soldier


Jul 7, 2002, 1:15 AM
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hmm... why carry extrra weight??? just apply the classic body belay technique to rappel off the wall if needed!


parangole


Jul 22, 2002, 7:46 PM
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I have already beem hit by a carabiner, climbing with the same guy who let fall the ATC.


epic_ed


Jul 23, 2002, 11:05 PM
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I used to carry a second belay device. Did so for the first couple of years for the same reason you're thinking about it--didn't want to be left stranded in case I fumbled it. But considering I'd only need something to use as an "emergency" rappel device, these days I'd rig a 'beaner rappel or use a munter. Yeah, it will twist the hell out of the rope, but it won't physically damage it. And a twisted rope is a lot less inconvenient than a rescue. Keep in mind, this is a decision I reached only after a couple of years of experience. It takes a while to learn some of the less-used tricks/techniques of climbing, but there are many worth learning. Put learning to tie a munter hitch toward the top of your list and give the extra belay device to your friend.

Ed


arsenalcrater


Jul 23, 2002, 11:18 PM
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Why all the fuss??? Just bring your chute and BASE jump!!!


blindslap


Jul 23, 2002, 11:32 PM
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i just put my ATC on a leash. I dropped it an entire pitch once (close to 100 feet) and now i have some 3 of 4 millemeter cord tied around the atc, then gurth hitched onto my harness. Now i never have to worry about it.


jeffers_mz


Jul 24, 2002, 2:30 AM
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The Carabiner Wrap works for me as a backup. If rapping a single line, I prefer it over any other method. Using a single line you might want to go with 4 or even 5 wraps depending on how slick the rope is.

Also, when you first weight the rope, the top loop tends to flip up over the top of the biner, dropping you maybe half an inch, not so bad unless you're not expecting it.



[ This Message was edited by: jeffers_mz on 2002-07-24 02:32 ]


timpanogos


Jul 25, 2002, 10:16 PM
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I just read somewhere that the Munter when used for belay, if feed carefully -avoiding the wrap-over part of the knot from biting (breaking at all) will result in no twist.

Of course this is no help for rapping, but made a lot of sense for belay.


rock_climbin_06


Jul 28, 2002, 1:19 PM
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Well the base jump idea sounded fun, but I think I should just carry an extra ATC up the rock.
-Adam


laurams01


Jul 28, 2002, 5:32 PM
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I always carry an extra belay

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