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El Gran Trono Blanco
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cragchica


Jul 5, 2002, 10:23 AM
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El Gran Trono Blanco
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Estoy buscando algo informacion sobre El Gran Trono Blanco en el norte de Mexico. Todos me dicen que es muy dificil encontrar este lugar. No se donde comprar un guia o buscar mas informacion. Si tienes algo... me da por favor.

Muchos gracias,

Cragchica


cragchica


Jul 9, 2002, 6:46 PM
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Nadie tiene informacion?


jt512


Jul 9, 2002, 7:13 PM
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Nadie habla espanol.

Go to http://groups.google.com, click on the advanced search, and then search the newsgroup rec.climbing for information. If you can't find what you're looking for, try posting your question (en ingles) to rec.climbing.

-Jay


ximiana


Jul 9, 2002, 11:08 PM
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Hola. entra a xpmexico.com quiza allí puedan darte información..

o a la página de elseptimogrado.com y contactalos ,segurametne tienen información

slaudos


cragchica


Jul 11, 2002, 12:39 PM
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Muchas Gracias!


felipe


Nov 4, 2004, 4:08 AM
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Ascenso al Trono Blanco [In reply to]
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Hola, justo ahora acabo de darme de alta en este foro, yo vivo en
Ensenada Baja California y estoy planeando ascender el Trono Blanco,
recientemente estuve en la Sierra de Juarez y llegue hasta un lado del
Trono, estoy consiguiendo las rutas para llegar a la base y estoy buscando
los topos de algunas rutas, cuando tenga esta info con gusto te la hare llegar.


mendou


Nov 4, 2004, 10:35 AM
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Hola!!! puedes encontrar algunos datos y algo de informacion en este link:

http://www.montanismo.org.mx/articulos.php?id_sec=5&id_art=74&id_ejemplar=


tjroca


Jul 24, 2006, 8:19 PM
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Aun quieren info de las rutas del Trono, se que es tarde pero acabo de leer este mensaje.


climbbaja


Jul 24, 2006, 9:37 PM
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???


squierbypetzl
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Jul 25, 2006, 1:28 AM
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In reply to:
A guidebook containing 352 routes has been copyrighted in Mexico and the USA. The book has not been published and is not available to the public. Any other publication of those routes would be an infringment to those copyrights.

Interesting... I´ll be looking into this since it seems kind of absurd.

Pero como dije, voy a ver.


climbbaja


Jul 25, 2006, 10:52 AM
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***


rmsusa


Jul 25, 2006, 4:53 PM
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In reply to:
A guidebook containing 352 routes has been copyrighted in Mexico and the USA. The book has not been published and is not available to the public. Any other publication of those routes would be an infringment to those copyrights.

Actually, it's the content of said guidebook (the expression, the particular description of the routes) that's copyrighted. If someone else wanted to go do an original, it wouldn't infringe on anything. Copying what's in the (un)published guidebook would infringe. Before infringement action can be taken, formal registration is required.

That's why there are a BUNCH of guidebooks to climbs in Colorado, all describing the same routes, none of which infringe on any other.

Caveat - IANAL.


climbbaja


Jul 25, 2006, 9:31 PM
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rmsusa


Jul 26, 2006, 9:19 AM
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In reply to:
Mexican law is somewhat different: the copyright covers the guidebook as a literary creation, and the physical routes as intellectual property

Hmmm... The physical routes as intellectual property really deserves a test. Certainly there are analogies to art & architecture but I'm not sure they hold up.

You seem to assert that describing routes is prohibited. "This route ascends the South Face in a sweeping arch". An extension might be that describing the facade of a building is prohibited. "The majestic corinthian columns are 10m high". It seems an absurd statement notwithstanding any number of attorneys who might have worked on it.

So, publication of scenic, annotated fotos would, in your opinion, be infringement?

Just curious, but I don't think you're on the winning side here, despite strong assertions to the contrary.


climbbaja


Jul 26, 2006, 1:28 PM
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rmsusa


Jul 26, 2006, 3:46 PM
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Look Smallwood, I'm not disputing the need for IP laws or the fact that putting up routes takes work & money. The specific "issue" we're talking about here is far from decided and can't be till a specific case comes before a judge. What I'm talking about is what seems to me to be an absurd reading of copyright law.

In reply to:
A better analogy would be to use Boeing (aircraft) Company. Let's say they design a new wing. It may not be a copyright or patent infringement to write that they developed a new wing. But getting one of their documents and reproducing that without permission would be an infringement. As soon as specifications, technical descriptions, materials, exact dimensions are mentioned, there would be infringement. Capitalism and world trade depends on the protection of intellectual property, hence the laws and international treaties.

What you say about getting one of their documents and reproducing it is certainly true and would be infringement. Those documents are specifically copyrighted. Moreover, producing a wing to the exact specs of the Boeing wing would be prohibited. The product is also protected. However, publishing a picture of that wing would not be. Measuring that wing and publishing the measurements "might" also not be infringing.

The work is protected, be it written or physically embodied as a product. It can't be reproduced without infringing. Generally descriptions of works are not. Further, US copyright law specifically does not protect "facts".

From Findlaw.com (see your lawyer):

"...copyright does not protect facts -- whether scientific, historical, biographical, or news of the day. Any facts that an author discovers in the course of research are in the public domain, free to all. For instance, anyone is free to use information included in a book about how the brain works, an article about the life and times of Neanderthals, or a TV documentary about the childhood of President Clinton -- provided that that they express the information in their own words."

In reply to:
It's hard to imagine that anyone could write a guidebook to Tajo without violating intellectual property.

And I can easily imagine it. Do I just have a better imagination or do I perceive some emotional involvement? Your arguments seem based on some kind of pre-conception of the nature of a "guidebook".

PS - re-iterating your opinion in bold doesn't have anything to do with its correctness. It's sort of like shouting to convince someone you're right. Sooner or later, someone will come out with a guide (sooner if you keep shouting about it) and (if you have the money for an enforcement action) you'll have your test case.


squierbypetzl
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Jul 26, 2006, 9:17 PM
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In reply to:
It's hard to imagine that anyone could write a guidebook to Tajo without violating intellectual property. The developers hold almost all of the information. Did you read that Dave K. had never even climbed there when he decided to publish a guidebook? Almost anything technical that he wrote would have been 100% ripped off info.

You still might not think I'm on the "winning side" here. Newsflash: We already won.

Hmm... I´m still not sold. Unless the routes are on private property, anyone who goes and climbs there can easily count bolts, describe moves, estimate height, etc. without having anything to do with pre.published works, thusly avoiding copyright violation.

And I can imagine 1 good looking loop hole, but I´ll keep it to myself until I can look into this matter further.

(para mi suerte, soy alumno de la facultad de derecho de la unam)


rmsusa


Jul 27, 2006, 9:18 AM
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In reply to:
Hmm... I´m still not sold.

Nor am I. I think that the interpretation of copyright law given by climbbaja is absurd on its face and asserts a monopoly over geography and facts that doesn't (and shouldn't) exist in the law.

I think that a person should be able to take fotos, count bolts, note the existence of cracks, corners and other physical features without worry. It seems like he's asserting the impossibility of making a map of Tijuana without infringing on Guía Roji.

The possibility exists that his lawyers told him what he wanted to hear to collect their fee.


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