|
|
|
|
renohandjams
Jun 8, 2005, 3:42 PM
Post #1 of 55
(20512 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 24, 2005
Posts: 616
|
Cam Revolution coming this summer:
Omega Pacifics Link Cam with the double lobes which is a total new design, the Metolius Super Cam which spirals so both lobes are on one side, or the Trango Max cam which gets even more expansion than the BD camalots due to the new double axle design.
Out of these three, which will make the largest ripple in the climbing community?
I've heard the reps say it all, that everyone will have multiple Link Cams on their rack because of their insane expansion, you just won't need anything else, or the Metolius Super mimics a sea shell spiral so it will save the world, or the Max will push the Camalot aside for good, etc..
Personally I would lean towards the Max for now, but I'm going to get my hands on all of them so I can decide on the rock where it really matters.
I am so pleased to see this daring jump in technology for active protection from Omega, Metolius, and Trango. Helmets off. The more advances and failures the better.
Vote for the Napoleon of the new Cam Revolution.
--------------------------------------------------
-Kenny
http://www.TradRack.com -Buyer
|
|
|
|
|
renohandjams
Jun 8, 2005, 3:44 PM
Post #2 of 55
(20512 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 24, 2005
Posts: 616
|
SORRY, I MEANT MAX CAM FOR VOTING, NOT THE FLEX! That won't even make a difference. SO If you VOTE, checking the FLEX, means MAX.
-sorry
------------------
-Kenny
http://www.TradRack.com -Buyer
|
|
|
|
|
j_ung
Jun 8, 2005, 3:52 PM
Post #3 of 55
(20512 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 21, 2003
Posts: 18690
|
I have't used the Max and Link Cams, so I really don't want to comment on them, except to say that the Max Cam has three axles, :wink: not two. The Super Cam is pretty damn cool. See the current FP review for details.
I'll probably buy a few of whichever model I end up liking the best, but I'm not going to buy any until I've had a chance to try all three.
As for revolutionizing the market, however, I'm not convinced that any of them will do that. There will still be price point cams, personal preferences and strengths and weaknesses of the new tech. But who knows? Maybe in 15-20 years, every cam will be a variation of one of the three (or something else entirely).
I agree with you in that the more advances, the better. I loves the new stuff, yes I does.
EDIT: BTW, I fixed your poll. :)
|
|
|
|
|
mbg
Jun 8, 2005, 3:53 PM
Post #4 of 55
(20512 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 17, 2003
Posts: 372
|
I think all three are a fad that will pass.
There's a reason why Jardine's original design is mostly unchanged but still exteremely popular after 25+ years.
|
|
|
|
|
atropine
Jun 8, 2005, 7:06 PM
Post #5 of 55
(20512 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 10, 2004
Posts: 46
|
MBG is all over it - WC forged friends are still there on the shelves & still one of the best options available. Take a look at the development of cam style devices & there have to be dozens of different types & failed attempts.
It will be interesting to see which of these max/link/whatever cams are in production for more than a year or so. I bet all my WC's & 4CU's will still be on my rack :)
|
|
|
|
|
renohandjams
Jun 8, 2005, 8:33 PM
Post #6 of 55
(20512 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 24, 2005
Posts: 616
|
In reply to: I have't used the Max and Link Cams, so I really don't want to comment on them, except to say that the Max Cam has three axles, :wink: not two.
Where is the third axle? I'm just going on the gif, so I'm not an expert here. It's been too long since I played with it at the OR in SLC.
http://www.trango.com/...tection/maxcaman.gif
---------------------------------
-Kenny
http://www.TradRack.com
FREE EMAIL ACCOUNTS, yourname@TradRack.com, 100 available
Email, yourname@TradRack.com, and the name you want.
|
|
|
|
|
drector
Jun 8, 2005, 8:51 PM
Post #8 of 55
(20512 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 1037
|
Someone beat me to it with a picture. Thanks.
|
|
|
|
|
renohandjams
Jun 8, 2005, 9:37 PM
Post #9 of 55
(20512 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 24, 2005
Posts: 616
|
Thanks for the pic,
I forgot about that.
-----------------------------------------------------
-kenny
http://www.TradRack.com
FREE EMAIL ACCOUNTS, yourname@TradRack.com 100 available
Just email yourname@Tradrack.com with the name you want.
|
|
|
|
|
chaps
Jun 8, 2005, 9:40 PM
Post #10 of 55
(20512 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 10, 2004
Posts: 33
|
I dunno. I like the idea of these huge-range cams, but I can't say that I think a whole rack of them makes lots of sense. Here's why:
If you're climbing a long, uniform crack (think Indian Creek), you're going to need ten cams of one size. For the extra weight of these super-expando cams you're not going to gain any benefit because you already know what size you need.
If you're climbing somewhere that will take a variety of sizes of cams, having a full rack of extended-range cams still won't be worth the extra weight because they're so heavy. Why carry six heavy cams when you could carry an assortment of lighter ones?
Also, rack beta exists for the vast majority of climbs and where that's not handy, experience fills in.
Lastly, I wonder how much progress has been made with some of these designs. The Metolius Supercams have managed to expand on the range of the same-sized Black Diamond C4s by a whopping two or three millimeters for an average gain of 1.5 ounces per cam. Three axles don't seem to actually be an improvement.
I should say that my opinions relate only to the climbing I've done. I haven't done any big walls and I don't have that many climbs under my belt. That being said, the above holds true given my experience. I reserve the right to be proven wrong at a later time.
|
|
|
|
|
korntera
Jun 8, 2005, 9:45 PM
Post #11 of 55
(20512 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 14, 2004
Posts: 422
|
The poll didn't let me vote... But I like the supercam slighty better, except that they don't have enough smaller sizes like the Max Cam, metoliu's smallest is 1.55" and trago's is .7", since all the area's that I climb are gear to 2.5" i have no use for larger metolius cams, only the smaller trango ones. Most cracks i climb are also shallow so the link cams are out, plus i have heard a lot of bad things about them failing because of so many movements in them.
But still I think this revolution is here to stay, instead of have 10 cams that have 10 different placements you will have 10 cams with 30 different placement options. Right now if I use my yellow cam, my grey and my oragne cannot take its place, but with these cams a cam smaller and a cam larger will take over the standard size of the in between cam. I can't wait till these are made small.
-Travis
|
|
|
|
|
veep23
Jun 8, 2005, 9:48 PM
Post #12 of 55
(20512 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 15, 2002
Posts: 125
|
Great! I finally get an honest full set with some extras and now these come out! :evil: Guess I'll go get em stuck so i have to buy the new stuff.
|
|
|
|
|
scuclimber
Jun 8, 2005, 10:06 PM
Post #13 of 55
(20512 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 30, 2003
Posts: 1007
|
In reply to: plus i have heard a lot of bad things about them failing because of so many movements in them.
How can you have heard so much about such a brand new cam? Pardon my curiosity, but I'm a bit skeptical.
Colin
|
|
|
|
|
thetroutscout
Jun 9, 2005, 5:35 AM
Post #14 of 55
(20512 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 23, 2004
Posts: 388
|
I think he meant he's heard a lot of people speculating they "might" be bad because they have so many moving parts. Not that they "are" failing because of the moving parts. (more moving parts = more parts to break/fail/clean/get stuck/etc...) I'd still like to buy one if I had that much money, however I likes me Trango gear :) Trango's page says late May for the MaxCams - are they really out yet?
^^ike
|
|
|
|
|
maculated
Jun 9, 2005, 5:48 AM
Post #15 of 55
(20512 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 23, 2001
Posts: 6179
|
I'm going to be coming out with a full Max cam review soon . . . but here's my take on them all.
People whining about weight need to stop. These cams do not weigh any more (some less) than what's on the market now. Okay. That's done with. You can do the research if you like.
Now, the only cam on the market with a huge huge range is the Link Cam. I see the Super and Max cams as an improvement, but not a vast one.
And I've not had the opportunity to use a link cam in real life, but I've fiddled with one in cracks and I personally think that everyone who thinks this will be a good cam to jam in at a panicky crux - I believe you are mistaken. Unless it is a very small sized crack, those suckers stick out quite a ways, they operate strangely, and it takes some doing to get a happy placement (at least one I like). I do not believe that plugging one of these in will help you where your own discernment from leading experience will not.
I don't know much about the Super cam. I've seen them, and frankly I don't like them. I don't like the way they handle, and I don't think they are that big of an improvement . . .
The Max cam is basically a way to get around the patent of the C4, in my opinion. It looks similar to it. It ways slightly less in some cases. It has a bit of a more extended range, and it has the extendable sling. That's why, for my money, I'd rather have a rack of Max cams than C4s.
The end.
|
|
|
|
|
healyje
Jun 9, 2005, 8:33 AM
Post #16 of 55
(20512 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 22, 2004
Posts: 4204
|
In reply to: I don't know much about the Super cam. I've seen them, and frankly I don't like them. I don't like the way they handle, and I don't think they are that big of an improvement . . .
Maculated,
I've seen statements like this by you several times now. Have you had one in your hand when you talk about how they handle? And can you qualify your statement as to exactly why you don't think Super Cams are that big of an improvement (and over what)?
With regard to the weight of the Max Cam - I can't imagine how anyone could possibly squawk about the weight of them, they are pretty much in the range with any cam on the market today.
|
|
|
|
|
renohandjams
Jun 9, 2005, 3:40 PM
Post #17 of 55
(20512 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 24, 2005
Posts: 616
|
I just called Omega and Trango this morning,
The Release date on the Omega Link Cam is:
Two weeks from now (roughly)
The Release date on the Trango Max Cam is:
The first week in August.
I got to play with the Link, Max, and Super at the OR show, but I didn't get to place them, so during the next two weeks when the Link cam is released I'm sure the forum will be flooded with feedback. I ordered both sizes for my rack as well to try out so I'll let you guys know how they are.
On the Link:
I've also heard speculation that the steel lobes (the inner ones) won't have as much bite as the standard aluminum and could pull out easier, but no one will know until they try.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-Kenny
-you can start placing orders on the Link and Max and get them the first day they come out.
http://www.TradRack.com
|
|
|
|
|
eyecannon
Jun 9, 2005, 6:54 PM
Post #18 of 55
(20512 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 4, 2004
Posts: 517
|
In reply to: I just called Omega and Trango this morning, The Release date on the Omega Link Cam is: Two weeks from now (roughly)
The Release date on the Trango Max Cam is:
The first week in August.
I got to play with the Link, Max, and Super at the OR show, but I didn't get to place them, so during the next two weeks when the Link cam is released I'm sure the forum will be flooded with feedback. I ordered both sizes for my rack as well to try out so I'll let you guys know how they are.
On the Link:
I've also heard speculation that the steel lobes (the inner ones) won't have as much bite as the standard aluminum and could pull out easier, but no one will know until they try.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-Kenny
-you can start placing orders on the Link and Max and get them the first day they come out.
http://www.TradRack.com
I ordered 3 Maxcams from Mountain Gear last month, with the original shipping date of 6/1/05. That date came and went, so I called and they are expecting shipment on 7/15/05 and said they would ship mine out the following business day. YMMV
|
|
|
|
|
renohandjams
Jun 9, 2005, 9:41 PM
Post #19 of 55
(20512 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 24, 2005
Posts: 616
|
In reply to: I ordered 3 Maxcams from Mountain Gear last month, with the original shipping date of 6/1/05. That date came and went, so I called and they are expecting shipment on 7/15/05 and said they would ship mine out the following business day. YMMV
Sorry to be the giver of bad news, but it doesn't look like it's the 15th anymore, try 8/1/05 now. I'm a retailer myself and the orders all come at once, regardless if you odered 1 set or 20 sets. The new cams this summer have had to keep pushing their release dates back, hopefully the Max-Cam won't come later than the first week in august. Let me know if I'm wrong, if you do get your Max Cam on the 15th I'll be pissed because we can't get ours until the first week of August now and I got a set for myself.
--------------------------------------------------------------
-Kenny
http://www.TradRack.com
Free Email Accounts, yourname@TradRack.com,
Just email Ben@TradRack.com with the name that you want
|
|
|
|
|
maculated
Jun 9, 2005, 10:12 PM
Post #20 of 55
(20512 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 23, 2001
Posts: 6179
|
In reply to: I've seen statements like this by you several times now. Have you had one in your hand when you talk about how they handle? And can you qualify your statement as to exactly why you don't think Super Cams are that big of an improvement ( and over what)?
Yup, I have. I've been to the OR show twice and seen them in prototype and finished product style. They were definitely better the second time around this winter. I just don't like the degree of asymmetricality (if that's a word) - the Max Cam naturally centers itself, but the Super doesn't. i think this will be a problem with fixing and cleaning . . . I always have. The reps have always looked at me like I'm stupid when I ask, so perhaps it won't . . .
And I would say that big of an improvement over benchmark cams currently available on the market. By this . . . I guess I mean the C4. If you compare it to the other two cams in this thread, I think it comes out the loser.
But, you know, that's my opinion. But I've had my hands on every one of the cams under discussion, placed the OP link cam, and I HAVE a Max Cam.
And I don't think I was squawking about the weight of the Max Cam. I said all the cams really aren't worth worrying about in terms of weight.
Edited to ruminate.
|
|
|
|
|
healyje
Jun 10, 2005, 9:11 AM
Post #21 of 55
(20512 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 22, 2004
Posts: 4204
|
Well, I've climbed with both the Max Cam and Super Cam and I quess we've come to opposite conclusions; fair enough.
The Super Cam's handle/stem is offset by design as a function of the asymmetry of small cams on one side and large cams on the other. The delivers Super Cam's range which is achieved by the smaller cam rotating through more of its curve than a traditional cam. The small and large cams do operate in unison however as traditional cams do and deliver the same 13.5 degree camming angle as the Power Cam line does. This cam angle largely determines how cams perform and Super Cams perform exactly like Power Cams or better due to the larger surface area in contact with the rock and an enhanced camming surface.
"Centering" - self or otherwise - in cams is a function of the cam lobes and the orientation and syncronization of opposing cams, not the stem; the handle/stem has nothing to do with the "centering" of cams. I can certainly understand that the offset stem might not be what you are used to, but the stem's position relative to a centerline has nothing to do with its tendency or not to "fix" or get stuck, or with placing or cleaning them from my experience, and in the end, it is the "centering" of the forces the cam lobes place on the rock that really matters.
While the Super Cam has asymmetry between the relative size of opposing cam lobes, they operate symmetrically (ignoring their respective sizes and differing rotation rates) and synchronously around a common axis. The net result, though looking different than traditional cams such as an original Jardine Friend, is a cam that operates identical to them with regard to applying predictable and largely synchronized forces to each side of the placement; i.e. the forces applied to the rock are "centered" which is what you want. Super Cams physically perform exactly like Power Cams only with better performance.
And "Centering" is precisely the problem I have with the Max Cam design. The Max Cam is no doubt one of the most innovative cam designs to hit the market; but it is a radical departure in the basic underlying cam design fundamentals that all other cams on the market use as a foundation. I just believe the jury is still out on this design. The problem I noticed with them was the orientation of a line running from cam tip to opposing cam tip on the Max Cam can depart from perpendicular to the stem significantly if you aren't paying close attention to what you are doing with the placement (See photo below):
http://www.cascadeclimbers.com/...500/6299max_1_11.jpg
[Sorry about the cheesy MS Paint drawings...]
I'm not an engineer and can't show exactly what the reprecussions of that misalignment from perpendicular is in a nice force graph - but thirty years of placing pro tells me it that this isn't a happy cam in that kind of orientation. And an unfortunate and natural consequence when this happens is the Max Cam's lobes not attached to the stem axle tend to want to "walk" more than the lobes that are resulting in it "walking over" those cam tips
In general what I found when I was climbing with the Max Cam is you have to pay particular attention to the orientation of that line and make sure the trigger wires don't slide on the bar which also changes the [default] orientation of that line. Does that mean you or I can't place the Max Cam effectively? No, I can use the Max Cam, but it isn't a slam and go deal nor would I place them blind - you simply have to pay attention to several details when placing it. No problem for you and me (if I have to do it), but it might be another deal for a beginning trad climber while thrutching badly on a move and trying to place one.
This doesn't have anything to do with Trango per se and I love their products - this has to do with a new and fairly radical departure in cam design Trango has decided to produce and market and I just think we are all going to play a role in deciding what we as a community collectively think about that design. And I don't think any of these cams is going to "revolutionize" anything; they all represent a diverse set of attempts to enhance today's designs and the market will sort it all out. BD has a great advantage both simply being BD and also getting out of the gate first.
For myself, I haven't seen a OP Link Cam yet and while it looks like it will have a niche, probably just not as my main large cams, and I'm not too happy with the larger Camalots (pre-C4) I have, so I'll probably get Super Cams. My main complaint with that is that I'll still have to buy Wild Country or BD C4's at the big end of things as Metolius isn't selling/making big Super Cams (hint, hint); and that's a shortcoming Super Cams share with Max Cams and Link Cams...
|
|
|
|
|
renohandjams
Jun 10, 2005, 3:44 PM
Post #22 of 55
(20512 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 24, 2005
Posts: 616
|
I would be more worried about the supercam aligning.
Does anyone know when the super cam release date is? Is it out?
Can't wait to set the link cam in two weeks just to see how it really is.
When I was playing with the super cam at the OR show I thought it was a terrible design having both lobs go on one side. How is that supposed to hold me in a fall, two lobes on one side and useless stem on the other side of the crack. It seems like one side of the crack would have plenty of contact and the other side would have practically none (Tri cams?). Comments on this?
I think the design is revolutionary, but I feel the most uncomfortable with this new radical design on the super cam (until I actually place it), even more uncomfortable than the link cam.
I played with the max and there is just something about that flexible stem and trigger that makes me want to squeeze it all day. Like one reviewer said (The Max Cam made all of the other cam designers wonder "Hey Why didn't I think of that!?"), something like that. I just think Max had a great idea.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
-Kenny
http://www.TradRack.com
Free Email accounts, yourname@TradRack.com, only 100 available
Email ben@TradRack.com with the name you want.
Only 5 have been taken so far
|
|
|
|
|
healyje
Jun 10, 2005, 5:40 PM
Post #23 of 55
(20512 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 22, 2004
Posts: 4204
|
In reply to: I would be more worried about the supercam aligning. Does anyone know when the super cam release date is? Is it out? Can't wait to set the link cam in two weeks just to see how it really is. When I was playing with the super cam at the OR show I thought it was a terrible design having both lobs go on one side. How is that supposed to hold me in a fall, two lobes on one side and useless stem on the other side of the crack. It seems like one side of the crack would have plenty of contact and the other side would have practically none (Tri cams?). Comments on this? I think the design is revolutionary, but I feel the most uncomfortable with this new radical design on the super cam (until I actually place it), even more uncomfortable than the link cam. -------------------------------------------------------------------- -Kenny
Kenny, a batch of the small size Super Cam are on sale here in PDX so I assume some got out the door. As for the Super Cam design - it couldn't be more traditional or closer to the original Jardine Friend design - not in appearance, but rather in how it works: two sets of opposing cams producing a consistent camming angle to the rock - 13.5 degrees in this case exactly like the Power Cam. Appearances aside, the Super Cam works exactly like a Power Cam or an original Jardine Friend.
And again - because it bears repeating - the camming angles and forces applied to the rock are what define a cam and it's performance - not how it looks. The basic physics and engineering that define a cam that lie behind the Super Cam are exatly like an original Jardine Friend, Metolius Power Cams, Trango Flexcams, and any other single axle cam. The only thing different in the Super Cam is the asymmetry of the cam sizes, the extended utilization of the small cam lobe's curve (clever), and the differing but synchronized rates of cam rotation between the small and large lobes. In short, if you think there is anything besides those three design aspects that's revolutionary about the Super Cam then you need to to learn a bit more about how things work in general. From a physics/engineering perspective the only design that represents a radical departure from all our existing single/double axle cam designs by any manufacturer is the Max Cam.
I would urge everyone to familarize themselves with cam design basics so you can evalutate all these new cam designs for yourself. And once they are available, go to the store and to the rock and compare them side by side - not in isolation - and then make up you own mind. If everyone does that the results will speak for themselves.
|
|
|
|
|
renohandjams
Jun 10, 2005, 6:04 PM
Post #24 of 55
(20512 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 24, 2005
Posts: 616
|
The cam physics make perfect sense to me after taking the statics class last semester, I think the only thing I need clarified is:
When the super cam is 100% cammed, aren't both lobs on the same side?
If that is true then what is going on with the other side? Are there any teeth or is it just the cam stem pushed against the wall?
If there are still teeth that would seem fine, but if it was just the cam stem pushing against the rock that doesn't seem ok to me.
It's been way too long since I played with the super. Let me know what happens when it is totally cammed.
-Thanks
---------------------------------------------
-Kenny
http://www.TradRack.com
Free Email Accounts, yourname@TradRack.com, only 100 available
Email ben@TradRack.com with the name you want
Only 5 accounts have been taken so far.
|
|
|
|
|
healyje
Jun 10, 2005, 6:27 PM
Post #25 of 55
(20512 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 22, 2004
Posts: 4204
|
In reply to: The cam physics make perfect sense to me after taking the statics class last semester, I think the only thing I need clarified is: When the super cam is 100% cammed, aren't both lobs on the same side? If that is true then what is going on with the other side? Are there any teeth or is it just the cam stem pushed against the wall?
No - the small cam is always on one side - there is never a time when only one of the opposing cam lobes is in play or that all the cams are on only one side; it definitely wouldn't work at all if it did. It works just like any other traditional single axle cam; it just uses more of the small cam's curve.
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
