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akaijen
Jul 14, 2002, 4:34 AM
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I have heard several people mention in this forum the concept of a 'good' belay, particularly as a way for newbies to engraciate themselves with more experienced climbers. I'd love to give good belay (do I really want to say that? haha), but not sure what that actually means. Thanks! aj
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twist995
Jul 14, 2002, 4:49 AM
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A good belay means that your climber feels they can trust you. Experienced climbers don't want you to keep things too tight so they feel like they are on their own. But when a climber looks at the rope and sees a lot of slack they worry that the belayer isn't paying much attention. The more slack, the further the fall. Nervous or hesitant climbers on the other hand might want a tight belay. They want to feel some support from the harness and feel that the slack is taken out. Also, watch out for your climber. If they need to traverse to the side don't pull them off the wall!
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elmosity
Jul 14, 2002, 5:00 AM
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Ask the person you are climbing with how they like being belayed. I think it also depends on trad or sport. Dynamic belays are key for sport. You don't want to short=rope anyone (when they are clipping they pull the rope, they don't have enough slack and the rope drags on them. Hope this helps. Back to my original thought. Ask the person you are climbing with.
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jt512
Jul 14, 2002, 7:00 PM
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Quote: I'd love to give good belay (do I really want to say that? haha)... Way to wreck the perfect straight line! Quote: ...but not sure what that actually means.
Belaying 101: Belayer doesn't trust himself or the belay device and thinks his job is to keep the leader's fall as short as possible. The belayer thus keeps the rope locked off with his brake hand at his hip and keeps as little slack in the rope as possible. After the leader clips overhead, he may even put him on tension until he climbs up to the bolt. When the leader goes to clip, the belayer hasn't learned to feed slack fast enough and the leader feels tension in the rope while clipping. This is called "short roping." A serious common Belaying 101 error is to attempt to shorten the leader's fall on vertical to overhaning terrain by leaning back or sitting when the leader's fall. This violently accelerates the falling climber into the wall, and is the source of many needless climbing injuries.
Belaying 201: The belayer has learned to keep an appropriate amount of slack in the rope: little until the second bolt is clipped; more higher, if the route is vertical to overhanging, with the amount of slack increasing with the steepness of the route. The belayer has also learned to dynamically belay on steep routes by jumping or stepping forward as the falling leader's weight comes onto the rope. To learn more about dynamic belaying click here . The belayer no longer keeps his brake hand behind his butt, but rather keeps the ropes about 45 degrees apart like this , so that he can quickly take in or let out slack as needed, and he anticipates when the leader is going to clip, so that he doesn't short rope him. In fact, the leader never feels the rope until he falls. -Jay [ This Message was edited by: jt512 on 2002-07-14 12:00 ]
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wildtrail
Jul 14, 2002, 7:16 PM
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I agree with jt512 as you really wrecked the perfect line. Man, we could have flown with that one couldn't we? Anyway, the rest of the guys have it. A good belay, in short, is when partners trust each other. Fully. I'm pround to say after years of up and down, I give great belay! I just had to! Steve [ This Message was edited by: wildtrail on 2002-07-14 12:17 ] [ This Message was edited by: wildtrail on 2002-07-14 12:17 ]
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kevlar
Jul 15, 2002, 10:45 PM
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A great belay will put a smile on your leaders face Dont forget to use "protection" if the route is looooooooooooong...
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hang_man
Jul 15, 2002, 11:08 PM
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all of em are so funny.. just don't let the climber die...
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fo_d
Jul 15, 2002, 11:50 PM
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I also have to agree with jt512, he said it perfectly. I tell anyone belaying me for the 1st time, slack is a good thing, If I dont have to pull the rope out of his/her belay device, its just about all I ask (other than the obvious, dont drop me), no heroic measures needed for my kinda climbing, just lock me off when I fall and hang on for the ride. Les
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pumpkin_man
Jul 16, 2002, 4:52 AM
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"The belayer thus keeps the rope locked off with his brake hand at his hip and keeps as little slack in the rope as possible." i have seen some of belayers keep their brake hand up with the other hand while they're belaying. and they told me this's the right way to do so. well, dont know why, i just felt that's horrible!
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number7
Jul 16, 2002, 6:02 AM
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How about the belay technique were the balayer matches hands with both lines above the belay device? I hate that style! Isn't it obvious that the rope slides freely this way? I like belayer to always be braking (unless giving or taking slack). How do you all feel about this? M
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jt512
Jul 17, 2002, 12:44 AM
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Quote: How about the belay technique were the balayer matches hands with both lines above the belay device? How do you all feel about this? That's the way to do it. I've yet to see an experienced climber belay a leader any other way. If I'm climbing with a new partner who is switching hands on the brake side of the rope and locking off every time they pull out slack, I immediately know two things: one, they are a beginner, and, two, they are going to short rope me when I go to clip. I immediately retrain them to belay using the "pinch and slide" method and to keep the ropes in front of them (not parallel, but at an angle), and only to lock off if I fall. -Jay
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theclimbingdrumbum
Jul 11, 2003, 2:09 PM
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It also depends on the type of belay device you use . . . .an ATC is going to run wild and crazy if you let it, but a grigri automatically locks in on any tension in the rope. I use both, depending on the needs of the application, especially since i teach climbing, newbies tend to prefer a tighter rope, so i go ATC, but i usually start them off with a grigri . . . if they can load the rope right, then theres no problem.
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labmonkey
Jul 11, 2003, 2:31 PM
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For what it's worth, my idea of a good belay is this. Climbing on a super exposed climb, getting pumped and kinda scared, and I blow a clip with an arm length of rope. Sacrrificing his body and bashing the hell of of his shins, my belayer keeps me off the ledge below me. Thanks Krillen. Kris
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robbovius
Jul 11, 2003, 2:59 PM
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In reply to: I have heard several people mention in this forum the concept of a 'good' belay, particularly as a way for newbies to engraciate themselves with more experienced climbers. I'd love to give good belay (do I really want to say that? haha), but not sure what that actually means. Thanks! aj Aside from each of the above climbers's meaningful perspectives, giving a good belay means, basically, being confident and secure in your use of your chosen belay device, and being attentive to the climber. Belaying, I have found, is an aquired skill that takes practice to master, and needs differing methodology regarding whther you are belaying toprope, Trad, or sport, from the ground, or hanging. ultimately though, and admittedly from my realtive noob status, what I want as a climber, is to look down, see the belayer staring up at me unwaveringly, with a solid brake hand. those to factors are the essence of good belay. everything else is nuance.
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krillen
Jul 17, 2003, 4:02 PM
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In reply to: For what it's worth, my idea of a good belay is this. Climbing on a super exposed climb, getting pumped and kinda scared, and I blow a clip with an arm length of rope. Sacrrificing his body and bashing the hell of of his shins, my belayer keeps me off the ledge below me. Thanks Krillen. Kris WOO HOO!@ I rule ;) :P
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blueeyedclimber
Jul 17, 2003, 4:19 PM
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All of the above plus the most important aspect: COMMUNICATION! Be alert and give the climber what he/she wants. Know what the terms Take, Slack, Clipping, On belay, Off belay, Rock!, mean. The key to a good climbing partnership is communication. Also learn about silent communication if you do trad. Josh
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