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beyond_gravity
Jul 14, 2002, 5:04 PM
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I looked in the guide book and for one of the belays it said something like "An old rusty fixed pin and a small crack that will take an RP"
Anyways, I heard that that belay has been bolted. Does this take away the "Trad Ethic" the same way as if a bolt was placed mid-route? Or are bolted belays exceptable?
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crackaddict
Jul 14, 2002, 5:16 PM
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This is a case of ethics Vs. saftey.
More and more trad routes are becomeing like this. Especially since the ASCA has been replacing old bolts and hangers.
Its up to you now if you want to use them. If you have an ultra trad ego at stake then you might want to do it the way th FA did it.
But if you just don't really care about it then clip away. Its all up to you. You set your own standards.
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blindslap
Jul 14, 2002, 5:39 PM
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Take a look at the belay. Has someone rebolted it just so you don't have take the time to set up a belay, or is it generally unsafe. The example you gave i think might have been safer with bolts but i've never done the climb so it's up to you.
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beyond_gravity
Jul 14, 2002, 6:04 PM
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Well, the belay isn't safe (for me, at least)
But I mean if someone added a bolt on a trad climb they would get a cam in the back of the head. so basicly, are people allowed to do this without asking the FA?
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crackaddict
Jul 15, 2002, 3:09 AM
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On any climb a person should always get the FA's approval before changing a route. It's like that in most places. Some FA's might get upset and do some choping. But for the most part they will be cool and you should have no problem.
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jds100
Jul 15, 2002, 3:39 AM
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As always, it's dependent on the local consensus standards for the area. Without knowing the area or the route, I can make a very general comment, though. It's not uncommon for belays to be re-bolted, particularly in the case of one -such as this one- that had bolt(s) at the belay that were old and deemed unsafe for protection. If there are two bolts where there was only one before, remember that good sense still says that two pieces of pro, even bolts, are not enough to be called safe (or "bomber"), so that crack still comes into play. Other than a very general statement, there are too many variables to be able to make a definitive statement about this specific route.
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stevematthys
Jul 15, 2002, 6:05 AM
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yea, it depends on the standards in your area, personally i would say rebolt it. it is better to be alive with no ethics, then dead with ethics.
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ergophobe
Jul 15, 2002, 7:07 PM
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Just my $.02
Often when bolts are added at the belay, it's because people are trying to establish a rap route as much as they are trying to make the belay itself bomber. This is the only way to do this in practice. If you've ever tried to create a safe rap anchor with anything other than bolts you will know that no matter how many signs you leave to show that this stuff should stay (taping biners shut and so forth), the gear will disappear if it's anything other than bolts and (if you're lucky), pins.
By the way, setting up a rap route is often a way to reduce climber impacts - if climbers rap rather than walk down through sensitive areas, it's far better for the environment in my opinion. Look at some of the descent trails in Yosemite - it's a total travesty.
Tom
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