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Partner pianomahnn


Sep 10, 2001, 12:37 AM
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Everyone knows that climbing gives you a great back, nice biceps, and a phat forearm. But, who trains the opposing muscles?

Common injuries come from NOT traning those opposing muscle groups in sequence with normal climbing muscles.

Push ups, of course, are a good form of working the triceps, pecs, and abs, but there are other ways as well.


bart


Sep 10, 2001, 2:42 AM
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I do push-ups sometimes, just to keep myself 'in balance'. I often go jogging to (not very long) for my endurance. I think it's important for climbing not to become too heavy.


congo


Sep 10, 2001, 9:44 AM
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i almost alwayd work out after climbing in the gym, especially pecs and shoulders, my tri's get worked out when i climb, e.g. gasons really work them. lower back, too.. ..actually i noticed that my lower abs dont get worked, so i started doing them last week.. ..but i dont really want to put on weight though.


daisuke


Sep 10, 2001, 12:07 PM
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it's not really about lifting as much as how you do it, lots of reps with less weight makes for good resistance, you only have to be able to lift your body and no more, some ppl I know go to the gym to build up mass because they think it means more strength but it's when you start trying to lift 2 tons that you gain muscle mass (which weighs more than fatty mass)


krillen


Sep 10, 2001, 12:54 PM
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Initially when you start liftign weights you actually drop weight because your boddy is burning up any fat you have. Fat is where the body stores nutrients for a rainy day. You do gain weight as you work out because the burn you feel is teh small fibers of muscle tissue ripping. When the body repairs them, they are much larger than they were intially, this is where those calories/nutrients/protein etc go. To reconstructing muscle fiber.

You don't have to get huge mind you. When you use a good system of high reps adn low weight you will burn off fat and maintain current muscle mass, and not build as much new muscle fiber.


jds100


Sep 12, 2001, 7:55 PM
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Actually, you can eat the same diet when working out hard and when not working out at all, and the food will be metabolized differently. If you're working out hard, more of the food (calories, nutrients) will go to repairing and gaining muscle, which can certainly lead to weight gain, but it's good weight gain. As has been said here already, a volume of muscle tissue weighs more than the same volume of fat tissue. You could be thinner, but weigh more. It is NOT about the amount of calories as much as it is about the quality of calories. It's not hard to gain weight from lifting, if that's the goal.

Light weights or heavy weights, it's all resistance. You need to decide what your objective is for lifting. Light weights and high reps will help somewhat in endurance of that muscle group, but won't increase strength much, if at all (you would actually probably lose a bit). For endurance for climbing, you're better off climbing laps and traversing for 30 minutes, etc.

To gain strength, you need heavy weight and few reps (no more than eight; too many reps will gain mass with less strength gain per pound gained), and a progressive workout of 4-6 sets: heavier weight with fewer reps per set, per muscle group (chest, lats, biceps, triceps, shoulders -front and rear-, forearms -top and bottom-, back, abs and obliques). Start with the bigger muscle groups (the order I have here is good, and works the complementary or opposing muscles), rest about 1 minute between sets, and 2 minutes between groups. Too much rest during the workout works against the objective. A workout of 45-75 minutes, once a week combined with climbing and plenty of recovery time (rest) is a big help. In the off-season, you can add sets and another workout day. (Lower body is a seperate day, and a shorter workout.)

And you certainly need to lift more than your body weight, because you will not always be able to use both arms, your back, you shoulders and your abs every time you need to climb higher. So, you do need to be stronger in all the climbing muscle groups to get the most out of the one or two muscle groups you may be limited to on a particular move. Unless you plan on climbing only on a pull-up bar, or with both hands at the same height, on great holds, with your weight balanced evenly between your feet (which are resting on great holds, too), saying you only need to lift your body weight means nothing.

Fred Nicloe and Klem Loskot have very muscular builds, and I would have no complaints if I climbed at their level. Gaining muscle is not a bad thing if you're gaining strength that is specific to your objective (in this case climbing). The issue is strength-to-weight, so make sure you train the right muscle groups -inluding the complementary/opposing groups- in the right way. And, the only help for those fingers seems to be climbing, hangboards, and campus or system work.


jds100


Sep 12, 2001, 8:03 PM
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By the way, a weight room workout is going to work the muscles differently than climbing, and is probably the only place to properly work the opposing muscle groups (reverse flyes, reverse wrist curls, triceps extensions, lower back extensions, etc.). A good reasonable weight room workout, a whole body approach, could probably help prevent injuries by working the muscles (and tendons and ligaments) in a different way from just climbing, and by overall strengthening.

[ This Message was edited by: jds100 on 2001-09-12 20:04 ]


krillen


Sep 13, 2001, 7:53 AM
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Hey Zoo, you don't have to be snotty about your arguments. You called my argument totally wrong when you said the exact same thing I said with the exception of diet.

So one basketbaall palyer coudln't gain wieght from lifting weights? I know when I was in the gym, I initially dropped weight then started to rise again after the inital drop. It's all dependant on your metabiolism. I will never be HUGE, because my metabolism is very high, but I DID gain mass when I was in the gym.

[ This Message was edited by: krillen on 2001-09-13 08:43 ]


jds100


Sep 14, 2001, 4:55 PM
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Zoo: your equation is too simplistic, but I'm not going to waste my time arguing with someone who has already made up his mind. The ideas I offered are not mine, nor do I claim such. They are also not from Barry Sears' The Zone. There is a lot of research being done in sports nutrition, and in resistance training. Perhaps we're all wasting our time, if it's all as simple as you say. Using one piece of anecdotal evidence is hardly the way to prove a "rule", and without knowing all the other factors that would have to be considered in evaluating Shawn Bradley's success or failure with weightlifting, he certainly doesn't support your arguement.


jds100


Sep 15, 2001, 8:07 PM
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For simplicity's sake, consider whether you really think that any food calorie can be considered to be the same as any other food calorie. One gram of fat contains (delivers) about 9 calories; one gram of protein contains (delivers) about 5 calories. Yet, because of the drastic difference in the way these two different kinds of calories are metabolized, there is not a "calorie in, calorie out" correlation.

Along with characteristics of the consuming organism and environmental factors, the nutritional content -the QUALITY- of the calorie delivery system (i.e. food) will have a profound influence on the result of the metabolization.

It's about nutrition, not just calories. Simple as that.


tyraidbp


Oct 2, 2001, 12:09 AM
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wow, I dont think that this topic was intended to go this direction. First of all, let me set a few things straight. One, inorder to begin building good, solid muscle, you need to work your aerobic capicity. That means running. After doing this for a couple of months, eating properly, and getting enough rest, you are ready to start lifting. Once you begin lifting, you will only gain weight, if you increase your food intake. This doesnt mean you will now eat two whoppers per day, but solid meals high in protein, good amount of carbs(and proper sugars)and a high amount of water. Most of the weight gain will be from water stored in the muscle, which will contain sugar and creatine(which your body does need to have better muscluar capacity). If you are looking to add mass, then do less reps of a higher weight, if you want to tone, then do more reps with a lower weight. And I am sure that if you start working out to either build mass of even just to tone up, your appetite will get larger. I think the main question that started the post however was "opposite muscle training" not a complete weight program. Infact, unless you are somewhere in the 5.13+ category, you shouldnt need too much of a weight program. The main reason for doing "push exercises" is to keep your body balanced, and to keep your "pull" muscles supported. There is no reason to go home and do mass amounts of pull-ups, but instead do push-ups and sit ups. You will find that getting into this sorta routine will help prevent injury stemming from over use or anything else.


c_plante


Oct 10, 2001, 12:40 AM
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Lots of arguing here!
Here's a question from a proffessional fatty. That would be me. I was in the RCMP and I worked out every day, about 2 hours in the weight room and 2 hours cardio, either running or swimming, that's every day. After 6 weeks of this I gained lots of weight, but my big ol pot belly was still runnin' strong. I now weigh just shy of 300 pounds, I'm 6'6, and climbing can be pretty tough sometimes. My buddies started out a little bit before me, but I've been training hard and I can do almost all that they can. But sometimes I just feel that gravity call to me, so what do I do?
Almost everyone says, loose the weight, but how do you do it when the weight refuses to leave?


tyraidbp


Oct 11, 2001, 8:47 AM
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I am no doctor, because I pass out at the sight of blood, but this is what I know. With guys, the fat is stored on top of the muscle, which means that your big ol pot belly is covering your abs. I would suggest that you dont hit the weight room for two hours every day, but perhaps just running or swimming. And in your case with you height and weight, I would say swim. Running for someone of your build will take its toll on your legs and back, unless you have super solid shoes and great insoles to support your feet. Maybe like a SuperFeet insole or something along those lines. And the next thing after the cardio is to climb more, but do more moderate routes, dont go and do the hardest stuff you can get on. Just climb consistantly, that will train you better than anything else. But loosing that belly is going to be hard work. Dont do situps with the hope that that will help, because of the previously mentioned fact, you will develop more of a belly by doing situps. When all else fails, call Jared, and see if he will adopt you into his family.<--- someone will catch that reference.


paulc


Oct 11, 2001, 11:35 AM
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Ditto here, cardio is the best way to lose weight, you may want to look into low impact cardio activities like bike riding, rollerblading, swimming etc.

Another thing that may be of help is to look at your diet. Not to be stereotypical but if all you eat is burgers, donuts, pop etc, you are getting so many calories from fat and sugar/starch sources that you are really going to have to work at the cardio that much harder.

Paul


c_plante


Oct 11, 2001, 3:05 PM
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Okay guys thanks for the good advice. I'll give it a shot!


jds100


Oct 11, 2001, 5:51 PM
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Christian,
In response to your post about losing weight around your middle: first, if your bodyfat is generally moderate elsewhere on your body, then you have a specific area to target. You can get an idea of your bodyfat percentage from most workout gyms/health clubs, a personal fitness trainer, or from a doctor. If you have generally high-ish bodyfat, then you need to look at changing your diet and changing your workout.

Diet: for climbing, where strength is the first need, and considerations such as speed and endurance are less relevent, think in terms of consuming about 2 grams of quality protein per kilogram of your weight per day (e.g. 100 kg weight need 200 grams of quality protein per day). Also, if you're training 2 hours per day, and your weight is 100kg, then you'll want 800 grams of quality carbohydrates (fruits and vegetables are best, less of the pasta and breads). If you train longer than that, add 100 grams of quality carbs per each additional hour. Now, fats: (sorry, but here's where we start counting calories, sort of), keep fat at no more than 15% of your caloric intake (less is better, within reason). Count fat calories at 10 calories per gram; it's actually closer to 9 calories per gram, but 10 makes it easier for the quick compute, and also helps reduce the fat grams a little bit more. Fat calories should come from cold water fish and virgin olive oil. Salmon and tuna is great, though watch tuna for cholesterol if that's an issue. (John Gill said he has eaten a can of tuna for lunch for decades!)

Generally, some great foods for a healthy athletic diet are unsweetened applesauce, low-fat (or no-fat) cottage cheese, pineapple in natural juice, fresh vegetables (avoid potatoes, though: high glycemic index food), fresh fruit (grapes are great, bananas are not; too high glycemic index), whey powder for making meal 'shakes', egg whites, jerky for snacks, fresh or canned tuna, fresh or canned salmon, fresh or canned mackeral, sardines, skinless chicken (avoid the chicken that's been fed hormones to help it gain weight; guess why!, and that's usually the cheaper chicken on the shelf; sorry)

Eat about six small meals a day (or 3-4 meals and 2-3 snacks), with portions about the size of your fist; one portion of quality protein, two portions of quality carbs. Add a drizzle of virgin olive oil to your veg's or meat/fish, and you'll probably be getting all the fat you need.

If you're doing situps, you are likely doing them in such a way that is actually working your hip flexors, instead of your abs. Most people do this. When the hip flexors get disproportionately stronger than the abs, the belly appears to stick out and down, because the pelvis is actually tipped backward somewhat. Try pulling your pelvis up and forward a bit, and see if the 'belly' reduces. (A better indicator of excess body fat is the 'love-handle' part, at the sides of the waist.)

Instead of curling up your upper body, keep your upper body on the floor and bring your legs up, keeping your back down (don't curl your butt up, just your legs). Do the same thing on a vertical leg raise apparatus, or when hanging from a pull-up bar (don't swing). Concentrate on using your abs to raise the legs (or kness, for an additional work out). Think about driving the small of your back through the floor (or back cushion on the vertical apparatus) throughout the exercise; this'll keep your abs tense the entire time, and that's how they'll get hard. If you can do (or are doing) lots of reps in your ab exercises, then you need to add resistance (weight) to the exercise, to the point of doing only 8-12 reps per set. Do 4-6 sets per exercise, and make sure the last few reps are nearly impossible. Add twist variations, too, to work the side sets of muscles. Good luck.


c_plante


Oct 12, 2001, 2:20 AM
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Wow thanks! I'll have to print that off, but it's a great wealth of info, hope everyone can make use of it.


roc_clymber


Oct 23, 2001, 7:21 AM
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There's a lot of info here about health and nutrition, many of it valid, and helpful. But a lot of it is controversial (spelled right?)

I post here to tell everyone about the most important thing needed for strenght, muscle, body size, mass, diet, anything....

and that one special important thing is

-drum roll please-

Water!!!!!
H20
the good stuff

the body can never have to much water. Replace most of your liquids, such as coffee, soda, or tea with water, and you will notice dramatic improvements. keep certain liquids in your diet like milk which also help, but i cannot stress the importance of water in releasing your toxins from your body, helping you loose weight, basically everything and anything. too much water cannot hurt, its like saying that breathing too much is bad too.

tip: do NOT drink bottled water. no matter how pure they say it is, tap is no different, and the chemicals in tap help your body and teeth. bottled water has no fluorine, and helps tooth decay. so unless you want missing yellow teeth, drink good clean tap water!


Partner pianomahnn


Oct 23, 2001, 9:03 AM
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roc_clymber, I totally agree with what you just said. Although, the body actually CAN get too much water. It's the opposite of dehydration, and I'm sorry I can't think of the clinical term. The excess of water changes the Ph of the body which is very bad. You REALLY have to drink a lot of water, and keep it all in for this to occur, but it CAN happen.

And you all though water was good for you!


jds100


Oct 23, 2001, 9:32 AM
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And keep hydrated throughout the workout, and throughout the climbing day, not just afterwards.

I highly recommend Twinlab Hydra Fuel for a fluid replacement drink. It has the right stuff for rehydrating, without the garbage sugars included in Gatorade and most of the other sport drinks (even just a little sugar will drastically increase the time it takes for water to move out of the stomach and into the lower gastrointestinal system where it can be taken up for rehydrating the body).

Whether it's water or Hydra Fuel, drink before you get thirsty.


walksw/3legs
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Oct 23, 2001, 11:26 AM
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Zoostation, you say it is incredibly hard to gain weight by lifting and Krillen you say it is easy. I say you are both right. It is all about GENETIC POTENTIAL. Some people are going to have a gut when they get older. Some people are going to stay at 6% bodyfat. Their genetic potential determines that. Mind you, the right kind of hard work can go a long way to reversing that, but the tendencies will always be there. My friend is endomorphic (thin) by nature. I am mesomorphic (muscular) by nature. He has made tremendous gains in the weight room through hard work and a good diet, but he will never (and I'm not being cocky here, either) be able to put on muscle and strength as like I have...and like my cousin has.

By the way, isn't this supposed to be a "working the opposing muscles" forum? Why hasn't anyone mentioned training to avoid Carpal Tunnel's Syndrome. I know someone that had to get SURGERY because of Carpal Tunnel Syndrome--from climbing. Make sure you train your outer forearms along with your inner forearms.


nikegirl


Oct 24, 2001, 11:35 PM
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Is the term for too much water, and retention of water "edima"...
could that be what your talking about?

T



fiend


Oct 24, 2001, 11:42 PM
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it's like hypoxinemia or something (hyponatremia. I was close ), I almost killed my girlfriend by taking her on a long bike ride and she drank too much water. You need to balance with juice or sports drinks or something. Even pop is better than too much water.

My girl had a severe headache and dizziness, and a couple of days later I was hanging out at the running store where she works and I read an article about drinking too much water during physical exertion, especially during hot weather. Turns out the next step after what my girlfriend was feeling was a coma and possible death.

Ok research time:
What happens is that as the athlete consumes large amounts of water over the course of the event, blood plasma (the liquid part of blood) increases. As this takes place, the salt content of the blood is diluted. At the same time, the athlete is losing salt by sweating. Consequently, the amount of salt available to the body tissues decreases over time to a point where the loss interferes with brain, heart, and muscle function.

The official name for this condition is hyponatremia. The symptoms generally mirror those of dehydration (apathy, confusion, nausea, and fatigue), although some individuals show no symptoms at all. If untreated, hyponatremia can lead to coma and even death.
(source, and more info)


[ This Message was edited by: fiend on 2001-10-24 23:54 ]


hardcoredana


Oct 25, 2001, 1:34 PM
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Okay, I have to add to the tangential character of this topic. 2 or 3 years ago, a woman died of hyponatremia during the Chicago Marathon. So it is an actual, though rare, condition.

During exreme physical exertion, you should drink a sports drink with that has electrolytes to prevent hyponatremia from happening. I don't know anything about Hydra fuel vs. gatorade, but gatorade is a little too sweet for my tastes, so I usually water it down 50%.


paulc


Oct 25, 2001, 2:44 PM
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Of course another way to get electrolytes is to eat food, usually if you are going to do something for enough time that you will get heat cramps (which is the other name for an electrolyte imbalance with no dehydration) you will get hungry and eat some food.

Just so people are aware the first symptom of heat cramps are cramps in the muscles that are being used the most.

Paul


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