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catbird_seat


Jul 19, 2005, 3:11 PM
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Are we better or more deserving than other tourists? (Yes, we are all tourists). The answer is no, we are not more deserving, but it's the wrong question. The question is whether the resource is being used for it's best purpose.

There are many National Parks that share Yosemite's natural beauty, but none that share its unique quality of rock faces. Those interested in hiking can find equal enjoyment in many other parks. Birders can find better destination is other places. Likewise boaters. Climbers are there because of the rock. That ought to count for something.


flamer


Jul 19, 2005, 3:27 PM
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There are many National Parks that share Yosemite's natural beauty, but none that share its unique quality of rock faces. Those interested in hiking can find equal enjoyment in many other parks. Birders can find better destination is other places. Likewise boaters. Climbers are there because of the rock. That ought to count for something.

Bullshit.

Have you never been to...Black canyon national park? How about RMNP? Zion NP? Tons of(similiar) climbing in those places as well...

Is the second highest water fall in the world anywhere else? Because as a climber I could give a damn about Yosemite falls...but there are alot of folks out there who go to Yose just to see it...what about Photographers? Can they take the picture of Half dome at sunset off that damn bridge anywhere else? They could spend weeks on end taking pictures of things that aren't any where else...should they get special permission to be there for those weeks?

josh


catbird_seat


Jul 19, 2005, 3:33 PM
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Let them go buy a nice picture of Half Dome. There are many available.


flamer


Jul 19, 2005, 3:38 PM
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Let them go buy a nice picture of Half Dome. There are many available.

That's true...but did they get the pleasure of taking that picture?
There are plenty of rocks out there...why not let climbers climb those?
While I don't agree with the statement I just made it is the same as what you say about photogs....

josh


crotch


Jul 19, 2005, 3:39 PM
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One other important step to consider, which I always thought was a great idea, is to remove all drinking water from the park, just like Joshua Tree. Now people have to bring their own water in.

I always liked Joshua Tree better with the rivers and waterfalls.


flamer


Jul 19, 2005, 3:45 PM
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One other important step to consider, which I always thought was a great idea, is to remove all drinking water from the park, just like Joshua Tree. Now people have to bring their own water in.

I always liked Joshua Tree better with the rivers and waterfalls.


HaHa!! Funny man!!

That some funny shizzle!!

josh


mtnjohn


Jul 19, 2005, 3:46 PM
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Until the last few post I was really starting to think thtat ALL climbers thought of themselves as somehow better than other visitors to national parks.
climbers ARE tourist and just like every other visitor to Yosemite,
deal with it.
With the exception of a few climbers who actually reside in the Valley we are alll visitors.
And there far more non-climber full time residents in the Valley.


bvb


Jul 19, 2005, 3:57 PM
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Joe can't climb for shit
hey, now. that's a bit harsh. kalcario may not be all aces, but i hear tell he can hack his way up 5.9 slabs on his good days.


cgranite


Jul 19, 2005, 4:10 PM
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The only one that expressed how things truly are was Dean.
It could have been better.


enjoimx


Jul 19, 2005, 4:22 PM
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crotch wrote:

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I always liked Joshua Tree better with the rivers and waterfalls.

Not sure what your point is, but if your suggesting that Yosemite has rivers and waterfalls, and Joshua Tree does not...you would be correct. Good observation.

Regardless of the abundance of water in Yosemite, drinking water is a luxory that I feel national parks could do without. People would have to plan more carefully to enjoy extended stays, and un-prepared people would be more persuaded to leave after shorter stays. :idea:


vivalargo


Jul 19, 2005, 4:22 PM
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Serious Yosemite climbers are engaged in an activity of considerable magnitide in terms of human experience, and everyone knows it. Folks don't line up to peer through a telescope and gaze at tourists floating down the Merced in innertubes--that's reserved for El Cap Meadow, and watching antmen crawl up the great face. The climber is no more important than the duffer behind the telescope, and he has no more rights per se. But he (and she, of course) is there for reasons that usually run a little deeper than someone bopping in for a view of the falls and a bottle of Cabernet at the Lodge. The climbers mandate, though it comes strictly from within, gives him a sense of belonging not felt by even the naturalists. Sometimes this can get expressed in crude and arrogant ways, not that he would ever care one way or th other. I didn't when I was spending 3 months a year in Yosemite. I was there on a mission and anything outside the orbit of that mission--rangers, rules, tourists, Curry Conmpany Co, et al--was rarely even an afterthought. Tunnelvision is not a social grace, but it gets folks up stuff and I never made excuses, then or now.

JL


kalcario


Jul 19, 2005, 4:43 PM
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*hey, now. that's a bit harsh. kalcario may not be all aces, but i hear tell he can hack his way up 5.9 slabs on his good days.*

Me? 5.9 slabs? Don't bet on it.


mtnjohn


Jul 19, 2005, 4:50 PM
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I've been know to gaze at a few choice tourist floating down the Merced.


indigo_nite


Jul 19, 2005, 4:56 PM
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I've been a climbing duffer for a good part of the last year. I liked the article because it felt sympathetic to climbing. One climber perspective I would have like to have seen was something about the spirit of dirtbagging apart from rules breaking or anarchism.

Two summers ago, I was really bored at work and really in love with climbing and adventure. So I quit and went driving to climb at Yosemite and Lover's Leap. The things that appealed to me about that lifestyle was 1. climbing is hard work but it's work that pulls intensely on all of your senses, your emotion, intellect, and spirit; 2. climbing is work that is not all about material gain and status in the mainstream goal-oriented way; 3. climbing is fun. I saw how the climbing culture leans towards being skeptical of rangers' intentions but my interest in the adventure was not to go out and break rules. I wanted to live outside of some of the social status standards that were not working for me. And I think for the record breakers, I'd guess they're not concerned with breaking rules as much as breaking through their personal limits.


oklahoma_climber


Jul 19, 2005, 5:22 PM
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if a yosemite park ranger cant tell a climber from a "normal" tourist, then my mother is a duck.

ROTFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
hahahahahahahahahahah!!!
gotta love that slovenian humor!


flamer


Jul 19, 2005, 6:26 PM
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Serious Yosemite climbers are engaged in an activity of considerable magnitide in terms of human experience, and everyone knows it. Folks don't line up to peer through a telescope and gaze at tourists floating down the Merced in innertubes--that's reserved for El Cap Meadow, and watching antmen crawl up the great face. The climber is no more important than the duffer behind the telescope, and he has no more rights per se. But he (and she, of course) is there for reasons that usually run a little deeper than someone bopping in for a view of the falls and a bottle of Cabernet at the Lodge. The climbers mandate, though it comes strictly from within, gives him a sense of belonging not felt by even the naturalists. Sometimes this can get expressed in crude and arrogant ways, not that he would ever care one way or th other. I didn't when I was spending 3 months a year in Yosemite. I was there on a mission and anything outside the orbit of that mission--rangers, rules, tourists, Curry Conmpany Co, et al--was rarely even an afterthought. Tunnelvision is not a social grace, but it gets folks up stuff and I never made excuses, then or now.

JL

Well said, and while I agree that the extent to which the human experience is, well,experienced by climbers is greater...I have to ask you do you think because of that "greater" experience should different rules should apply?

Hmmm... as different people you could also question what is the human experience? Does someone get the same amount of joy, in their world, by looking through the telescope....? I guess it all depends on the person...which seems to be a good reason the NPS can't look at us as individual's. Their rules apply to everyone evenly across the board..at least until you break them.

josh


cjstudent


Jul 19, 2005, 6:40 PM
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I just wish that they would make Camp 4 a climbers only camp. And let us stay there longer. Maybe not unlimited, but 7 days is so freaking short!!!

I just know when i was there in june, there were other people besides climbers staying there and taking up alot of room. I'm all for people of other interest being in yosemite. but the NPS seems to like to keep us in our little areas, so i wish Camp 4 was climber only. But that is just my opinion.

Since i want to work in law enforcement when i get out of college, I can see the side of the Rangers. But it is also in my opinion that they are forcing us to cause problems. I went to Yosemite to climb the walls. I didnt go there to break teh law. However I was forced to break the law with the 7 day limit. I mean i sat through several days in a row of afternoon t-storms...I didnt want to be on el cap through that.

I dunno the answer, but Camp 4 as a climbers only place would be pretty sweet.


flamer


Jul 19, 2005, 7:07 PM
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I just wish that they would make Camp 4 a climbers only camp. And let us stay there longer. Maybe not unlimited, but 7 days is so freaking short!!!

Ah ha !! I agree this would be sweet!! BUT! Camp4 is the only walk-in, First come first serve campground in the valley....should they make it so climbers aren't allowed to use the other campgrounds?

josh


vivalargo


Jul 19, 2005, 8:45 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Serious Yosemite climbers are engaged in an activity of considerable magnitide in terms of human experience, and everyone knows it. Folks don't line up to peer through a telescope and gaze at tourists floating down the Merced in innertubes--that's reserved for El Cap Meadow, and watching antmen crawl up the great face. The climber is no more important than the duffer behind the telescope, and he has no more rights per se. But he (and she, of course) is there for reasons that usually run a little deeper than someone bopping in for a view of the falls and a bottle of Cabernet at the Lodge. The climbers mandate, though it comes strictly from within, gives him a sense of belonging not felt by even the naturalists. Sometimes this can get expressed in crude and arrogant ways, not that he would ever care one way or th other. I didn't when I was spending 3 months a year in Yosemite. I was there on a mission and anything outside the orbit of that mission--rangers, rules, tourists, Curry Conmpany Co, et al--was rarely even an afterthought. Tunnelvision is not a social grace, but it gets folks up stuff and I never made excuses, then or now.

JL

Well said, and while I agree that the extent to which the human experience is, well,experienced by climbers is greater...I have to ask you do you think because of that "greater" experience should different rules should apply?

Hmmm... as different people you could also question what is the human experience? Does someone get the same amount of joy, in their world, by looking through the telescope....? I guess it all depends on the person...which seems to be a good reason the NPS can't look at us as individual's. Their rules apply to everyone evenly across the board..at least until you break them.

josh

Josh--

I don't think you're getting the whole tunnel-vison thing. When you're locked into the groove, there's no second guessing your decision and certainly no inclination to start weighing what you're doing with what others are doing in terms of joy or individuals or rules or any such thing. All of those things are ouside the orbit of getting up those climbs and so are no concerns and are given no thought. Rules, rangers, tourists, and so forth--they might as well be in another universe. The trick here is not to spoil it for others, so my strategy was to always fly totally under the radar, basically not being a part of anything but my own gig. I didn't steal or scarf or cause trouble or get in fights with anyone because by and large I really didn't see anyone in any regular sense. I only saw what I was there to do. Antisocial? Absolutely. I felt what I was doing was important, to me, and that was always enough.

That was over 20 years ago, and now I can ponder the philosophical underpinnings. But the real show will always be up on the High Lonesome, and anyone who steps out in El Cap meadow and looks up at the folk lashed to the Big Stone will know in their gut that the climbers have much more invested in their stay in Yosemite than just another employe pulling down a salary or another guy snaping off shots. The climber is no more important than anyone else in the grand scheme of things, but he's marching point on the Yosemite Experience, and most everyone knows it.

JL


le_bruce


Jul 19, 2005, 8:47 PM
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Crotch - brilliant work there. Come on Enjoi, you've got to laugh too...

Arguing against the prohibition of private vehicles from the Valley is a waste of breath - it's the inevitable solution, at least in season. If done right (did someone really suggest building a max capacity parking garage below LT?) it'll hugely mitigate the clusterfuckhood of high season. Only caveat is that it's got to be democratic and non-biased.
And to whoever it was advocating keeping out the poor and penniless like myself by raising user fees until only the middle and upper classes have access: andate a la mierda, pendejo culiado!


flamer


Jul 19, 2005, 9:08 PM
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John,

I do get what you are saying about tunnel vision and about passion.
I've felt it and continue to feel it. I think we agree on this whole issue...you said it yourself...no one is more important than anyone else. But you're right the real "show" start's when you step into the vertical realm, point your nose to the sky and align your focus to the right there and then....when you're done all you can think of is doing it again....

We all appreciate the low key folks out there who are doing their thing in the valley and not drawing attention to themselves....

josh


cjstudent


Jul 19, 2005, 9:58 PM
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I just wish that they would make Camp 4 a climbers only camp. And let us stay there longer. Maybe not unlimited, but 7 days is so freaking short!!!

Ah ha !! I agree this would be sweet!! BUT! Camp4 is the only walk-in, First come first serve campground in the valley....should they make it so climbers aren't allowed to use the other campgrounds?

josh

I know, there should be another walk-in campground for non-climbers. I know this would probably get into discrimination all kinds of other good things, but I just wish something like that existed. Like when you go to Camp 4 there should be a test. You should have to cross reference cam sizes between different brands, define sketchy, and tell what a Rurp is to qualify yourself as a climber.


enjoimx


Jul 19, 2005, 10:56 PM
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How, if Camp 4 were to become a "Climbers Only" camp, would one go about validating your claim to "Climber-ism" ??

How would they deter those whose "climbing" ended with their stepping up and over the rocks surrounding the Camp 4 koisk?


climbsomething


Jul 19, 2005, 11:54 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
I just wish that they would make Camp 4 a climbers only camp. And let us stay there longer. Maybe not unlimited, but 7 days is so freaking short!!!

Ah ha !! I agree this would be sweet!! BUT! Camp4 is the only walk-in, First come first serve campground in the valley....should they make it so climbers aren't allowed to use the other campgrounds?

josh

I know, there should be another walk-in campground for non-climbers. I know this would probably get into discrimination all kinds of other good things, but I just wish something like that existed. Like when you go to Camp 4 there should be a test. You should have to cross reference cam sizes between different brands, define sketchy, and tell what a Rurp is to qualify yourself as a climber.
Things that make you go DURRRRRRRRR


Partner climbinginchico


Jul 19, 2005, 11:57 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
I just wish that they would make Camp 4 a climbers only camp. And let us stay there longer. Maybe not unlimited, but 7 days is so freaking short!!!

Ah ha !! I agree this would be sweet!! BUT! Camp4 is the only walk-in, First come first serve campground in the valley....should they make it so climbers aren't allowed to use the other campgrounds?

josh

I know, there should be another walk-in campground for non-climbers. I know this would probably get into discrimination all kinds of other good things, but I just wish something like that existed. Like when you go to Camp 4 there should be a test. You should have to cross reference cam sizes between different brands, define sketchy, and tell what a Rurp is to qualify yourself as a climber.
Things that make you go DURRRRRRRRR

I can almost imagine that redubbed into the song...

CJ, then that removes boulderers and sport climbers from camp 4. :evil:

On second thought, brilliant idea!! :wink:

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