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shnobe
Aug 10, 2003, 6:11 AM
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1....NO
2....NO
3.....NO
Chipping should never be allowed or accepted...
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kalcario
Aug 10, 2003, 6:15 AM
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The definitive and realistic answer to this set of questions is: It depends on the area.
If you are talking about pristine granite in an alpine setting or a National Park, the answer is no to all 3. By rights the definition of chipping should be broad enough to include piton bashing (which some of us find even more offensive than chipping), and someday I'm sure it will, but...one step at a time.
If the cliff is a pile of choss, then anything goes, and if you don't like it then don't go there.
And if your idea of interjecting yourself into the controversy only goes as far as typing, then don't bother.
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enigma
Aug 10, 2003, 7:52 AM
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--This thread seems to be directed at someone or a few individuals in particular, is that true?? :shock:
? Maybe it shouldn't be so enigmatic. Hmmn :roll:
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peas
Aug 10, 2003, 8:06 AM
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No
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vertical_planar
Aug 10, 2003, 8:25 AM
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NO
NO
NO
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halcyon
Aug 10, 2003, 9:20 AM
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NO
NO
NO
If you have to chip the climb to climb it, climb something else.
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dingus
Aug 10, 2003, 3:11 PM
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In reply to: Post your responses to the three questions with either a YES (chipping is acceptable), NO (not acceptable), or NO OPINION (i.e. ambilvilence or don't care). No justifications please... this is a poll, not a discussion.
hehe. Once you hit the send button you no longer can control the discussion, unless you're a power hungry moderator that is...
In reply to: Is it acceptable for the developer to enlarge these holds so that he can complete the first ascent?
Is anyone watching when said developer is presented with the temptation to carve holds out of blank stone?
In reply to: 2) If two strategically placed pockets are added with the use of a power drill to the crux section, the route can be transformed into an enjoyable 5.10. Is chipping acceptable in this case?
Is the route developer a member of some minority community?
In reply to: 3)Any possible route on this wall would have to be nearly 100%, completely manufactured: chipping, drilled pockets, chisseling, etc. Since this route could never be climbed anyway, is it acceptable to chip in this case?
Is the route developer named Tony Yaniro by any chance?
Look, the opinion of faceless dweebs on the internet, me included, is rather irrelevant and certainly lacks context. The only opinion that truly matters is the person doing the chipping. You can have one hundred zealots preaching the ills of chipping negated by the chisel of one. When you present black and white scenarios you reveal nothing of consequence. It's only on the margins of people's ethics that you will find interesting controversy. So I am going to modify your poll.
1.) You have bolted a hard sandstone sport route and repeatedly tried to red point it. You can't do it. It's just too hard. Each time you get to the crux you reach up to a distant and poor hand hold and brush at it vigorously with your hardened fingertips and nails. And each time you do this grains of sand are seperated from the rock matrix and swept away. After 30 or 40 such episodes over the course of a couple of days spent hanging from the nearest bolt, working the move, gradually, the hold is enlarged and you eventually send the route. Is this blatant form of chipping acceptable to you? Will you tell the area guidebook author and everyone else who is tempted to try your climb how you modified this hold? Are you proudb of your work?
2.) You have a 5.10 climb with a 5.12+ move halfway up. You can't even talk your belayers into holding your rope anymore, so hopeless are your chances of dragging your fat arse up the route free (I have one of these by the way). Another friend, an antisocial SOB who cares next to nothing of the opinion of others, offers to fix the route at some undefined point in the future. She won't tell you what she intends to do, nor when; just that she will "take care of things." Do you consent or warn her off?
3.) You have a hairline dirtfilled crack splitting a 95 degree wall. So compelling is the line that over the years, going clear back to the 60's, notable climbers have stopped their cars and climbed the hill to have a look. In each and every case they retreated. The 80 foot line would require extensive excavation and hard iron slamming to even be aided, much less freed. Since this thing is right on the road to one of the great aid climbing meccas of the free world, people have let it go. But where others see a waste of time you see a future cutting edge free climb. Yet even you are a bit put off by the tactics you envision necessary...
you will have to first rap the thing and using the pick of an ice axe laborously dig out every shred of vegation and dirt you can. After the cleaning you know at least 30 feet of hairline crack still seperate you from your future magazine cover route. So you recruit your aid climbing friend to nail it and you ask him to nail it hard. You clean it and really work those pins in getting them out. The results of these efforts is clear... pockets emerging from the seam, every four feet. Still, at least 5 of these holds are too small to admit even the tip of your pinky. So you nail it 3 more times until the holds will admit your digits. When top roping this new line you realize there are absolutely no opportunities for really good pro anywhere on the route, so you elect to rap bolt the crack as well, rather than aid it 10 more times to produce suitable nut placements. Eventually you send this new line, proudly clipping your shiny 3/8 inch bolts up the thing as your photog friend snaps away. Do you decribe to Blight & Farce, in detail, the methods you used to create this climb? Could you look your momma in the eye and defend your actions to be in keeping with the proud traditions of the sport?
Lastly, have any of you route developers ever been tempted to carve or modify obviously solid holds in order to make a climb go? If so, did you carve? If yes, what route, where and when? And please post your real name too. If the tactics are acceptable you should have no problem providing real world proof of your actions and be willing to stand behind them. It is my guess that no chipping advocate will do this... and that is the only indictment necessary. If you can't stand up to the light of day, then it is darkness you are pursuing.
DMT
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cthcrockclimber
Aug 10, 2003, 3:27 PM
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No
No
No
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silkyerm
Aug 10, 2003, 3:35 PM
Post #34 of 323
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No
No
No
If you want to chip something, chip an old concrete train tressel.
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flying_dutchman
Aug 10, 2003, 4:57 PM
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i thought we were clear with the chipping issue...
no to the above unless the rock is in your backyard.
Why not just aid the route over and over till its climbable? That seems to be acceptable on big walls.
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karma274
Aug 10, 2003, 5:57 PM
Post #36 of 323
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In reply to: 1.) You have bolted a hard sandstone sport route and repeatedly tried to red point it. You can't do it. It's just too hard. Each time you get to the crux you reach up to a distant and poor hand hold and brush at it vigorously with your hardened fingertips and nails. And each time you do this grains of sand are seperated from the rock matrix and swept away. After 30 or 40 such episodes over the course of a couple of days spent hanging from the nearest bolt, working the move, gradually, the hold is enlarged and you eventually send the route. Is this blatant form of chipping acceptable to you? Will you tell the area guidebook author and everyone else who is tempted to try your climb how you modified this hold? Are you proudb of your work? DMT
While this is kind of shady business, this same thing would have happened after others had tried it many times. It's sort of like prying a scary ass loose block off before someone weights it and kills someone. if it's 90% probable that something would have come off after many attempts or if someone weighted it, my opinion is that you aren't hurting anything.
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saltamonte
Sep 26, 2005, 4:36 PM
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In reply to: Not acceptable in any of the above cases. Mike Coles 'bluelip'
In reply to: No No No If you want to chip something, chip an old concrete train tressel.
what is it with peoples percieved need to protect a Rock from being hit with a hammer especially when we are talking about some obscure rock that will otherwise never be climbed.
I fully agree that there are times when chipping is inappropriate. but to say it should never be done by anyone is about as logical as an athiest deciding to live like the amish and then trying to make the whole world convert to his lifestyle because it is what he likes. If he wants to live with out using technology fine let him do it. but he has no place telling others they shouldn't use a zipper on their pants (especially since as an athiest and has no belief that a higher power is mandating his lifestyle) So if you don't want to chip a rock to make a brand new route climbable don't do it, and if you don't want others chipping at your existing routes we are behind you. but don't act like anyone else should be equally bound to never chip a rock because of your personal preference
I love rocks but they do not feel pain and do not care if you chip them in fact over time they will be chipped by nature itself if you don't do it. IF you maintain that chipping a rock is always wrong you should stop driving on public roads gravel or paved both are made with chipped rock.
ironically this sort of behavior is the very behavior that when applied to other situations most of the users on this site detest. For example.
this is anal retentative anti chipping rc.com user "i would never chip a rock so neither should you" and we are supposed to agree with him
But when local stuck up guy at gas station sees Anal Retentive rc.com user's tattoos and purple hair.
and stuck up local guy says "I would never paint my hair purple that is ugly and distracting from the beauty of the human race so neither should you"
or
" i would never get a tattoo if it didn't get their naturally like a birthmark or accidently like scar then I won't put it on my body so neither should you."
or
"I would never cuss it is unpleasant to have no choice but to hear that profanity as I walk through the grocery store or sit at the coffee shop. so neither should you"
most of these anti-chipping activists would say who does he think he is I will do as I *@#! please.
but when it comes to hitting a rock with a hammer they can handle letting everyone make their own choices
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lofstromc
Sep 26, 2005, 4:59 PM
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To question 1: instead of making the holds bigger by chipping, make your hands smaller by chipping.
Question 2: Use some glue-up holds, those are always very aesthetically pleasing.
Question 3: I asked the bats in said cave and they all agreed. NO!
Leave the rock alone. :evil:
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overlord
Sep 26, 2005, 5:05 PM
Post #39 of 323
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a)no
b)no
c)if you dont own the cave, no. its ok if you want to make yourself a nice little outdoor gym on your land.
im against deliberately altering the rock to make free moves easier/possible. if you cant climb it, open the project and let others try it.
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kyote321
Sep 26, 2005, 5:11 PM
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comfortizing is the question that should be asked. although i don't really care if rock gets chipped or not, most people do. comfortizing IS the topic that should be discussed
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jelliott
Sep 26, 2005, 5:20 PM
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Hell NO to all three and for god's sake leave the bats alone
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tgreene
Sep 26, 2005, 5:30 PM
Post #42 of 323
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This is called French Aiding... AND FUCK THE FRENCH! :deadhorse:
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rockgoat
Sep 26, 2005, 5:36 PM
Post #43 of 323
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Registered: Aug 7, 2003
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No!
No!
No!
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billcoe_
Sep 26, 2005, 6:03 PM
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In reply to: no - no - no - no - no Hope that caught them all. NO. .................. Now on to the Arnold for gov poll.....
Still No No No and No with an extra no in there for good measure. If you own it, thats another subject.
Nice thread revival saltamonte. Still No.
How about that Arnold now? He got elected. Can we have another poll on his re-election?
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scotchie
Sep 26, 2005, 7:09 PM
Post #45 of 323
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NO, NO, and NO !!!!
If you own the land then it's your legal right, BUT IT'S STILL LAME !!!
That said, I wouldn't refuse to climb a route just because someone chipped it. Once the damage is done, and it's too late to recover, then I might as well enjoy what's left of the climb. But it's not like climbing a real 5.whatever.
Oh yeah, and I vote "The questioner should be burned at the stake for being superbly pathetic". :D
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moose_droppings
Sep 26, 2005, 7:25 PM
Post #46 of 323
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1st 3 original questions:
1. no
2. no
3. no
Modified questions:
1. A. no
B. yes
C. no
2. warn her
3. A. yes
B. no
Lastly. no fucking way
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quietmonk
Sep 26, 2005, 8:08 PM
Post #47 of 323
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Not every rock needs to get climbed
1) too selfish/stupid to chip down
2) depends. I would drill the shit out of it
3) Setting plastic climbs would be a better option (as in most cases of manufacturing) In a choss-filled cave I would approve of this, but never waste my time doing it.
I have actually climbed in a "secret" choss cave at Smith where all of the routes are based off of holds that are blatantly drilled, glued or bolted on. Some of ther routes even used commercial plastic holds.
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fluxus
Sep 26, 2005, 8:42 PM
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Its great to say that chippinng should not be done. But do you all realize how many of the routes you climb are chipped? How many classics routes out there are man made wonders? What do you do when you discover that the most famous route in your area has a number of chipped holds on it?
American fork Ut, Maple canyon Ut, Mt Charleston NV, Clark Mnt. Ca, Mount Williamson Ca, Stoney Point Ca, Kingston Quarry NY, Hemlock Ledges (gunks) ny, Red Rock NV, Riverside Quarry CA, Logan Ut. Wild Iris Wy, Sinks Canyon Wy, Echo Ca, almost any old trad crack route, and just about every limestone crag between Vegas and SLC among others all have routes created by chipping, gluing, "selective cleaning" etc.
Chipping in all its different manifestations has played a significant role in American climbing for a long time, This does not make it right, but I imagine that many people who posted an indignant "no!" to the pole question have on more than one ocassion used chipped holds and enjoyed the experience without knowing that the holds were chipped.
I don't think that chipping should be accepted but at the same time there are a few rare individual out there who have chipped great routes. Unfortunately there are far more people who have ruined what other wise would have been good routes with their chipping.
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fenderfour
Sep 26, 2005, 8:48 PM
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Not everything has to be climbed. Learn to accept defeat
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