When is roughster going to chime in here?

thank you roughster if I had a trophy to give it would be yours.

I think the poll does serve a purpose, it shows that most of the respondents have a limited understanding of what is going on at their crags and limited context in which to understand the questions.

Here are other questions for you:

1) is "cleaning" hundreds of LBS of loose rock off a first ascent chipping? Consider that the person doing the cleaning must decide when they have "cleaned" enough, in other words what will stay as holds.

2) is cleaning one chunk of loose rock and glueing another one, right next to it, acceptable?

3) is comfortizing holds chipping?

4) When old school trad climbers use pitons on a crack, and then later the crack is climbed free using the pin scars, is that chipping?

5) if climber 'A' manufactures a route or two on a totally blank and featurless abandon quarry in upstate NY, and on another day climbing at a natural area in PA, comes across a natural route with a chipped hold and proceeds to easily do the routes without the chipped hold and is critical of the chipper who chipped a natural route for no reason at all beyond their lack of vision. How evil is climber 'A'?

6) A climber at Red Rocks wishes the grades there were not so soft. After a winter rainstorm he goes and gets on a few routes in the gallery before they dry off and accidently breaks off a few rain softened crimpers, is that chipping?

7) a climber who wants his new rad project to be super hard fills in a number of pockets with glue, so they can't be used. Is that chipping?

You want to know what I think about this?

B~I = f [w1] with the heaviest influence and weighting set on SN. (SN = Subjective Norm)

Visually speaking:

http://www.ciadvertising.org/...ioner/belding/af.gif

Climbers as a whole are much too concerned about 12-3 o'clock positons in my opinion. So much so that you could apply a pre-teen / teenage Peer Pressure model to the climbing community to more accurately predict the "typical" response from the majority of climbers.

In layman's terms? Climbers are more concerned about fiting in with other climbers rather than be willing to understand and come up with their own stance. The SN or subjective norm (you can also think of it as social norm) is not just a factor, it is in fact a filter for original thought since you will self sensor your own ideas based upon the input from the right quadrant of the diagram.

The irony of all this is climbers have a tradition of being social outcasts who think outside of the day to day social norms, but now we have built our own social model that exactly parallels mainstream society and more specifically pre-teen / teen Peer Pressure models. :lol:

As for chipping? Don't care. I am paddling these days more than climbing. Who would have guessed that a shoulder injury could be a blessing in disguise!

1) is "cleaning" hundreds of LBS of loose rock off a first ascent chipping? Consider that the person doing the cleaning must decide when they have "cleaned" enough, in other words what will stay as holds.

2) is cleaning one chunk of loose rock and glueing another one, right next to it, acceptable?

3) is comfortizing holds chipping?

4) When old school trad climbers use pitons on a crack, and then later the crack is climbed free using the pin scars, is that chipping?

5) How evil is climber 'A'?

6) accidently breaks off a few rain softened crimpers, is that chipping?

7) a climber who wants his new rad project to be super hard fills in a number of pockets with glue, so they can't be used. Is that chipping?

Most of you guys need to wake up and smell the epoxy.

Its rare to come across a drilled pocket or something like that but the person putting up the route has to make descisions about what stays and what goes. At a place like Maple cleaning off the loose rock does not reveal solid rock, it reveals more loose rock or slightly less chossy rock. At some point the person cleaning the route makes very specific decisions about what the holds will be and how hard the route will be.

I don't know how many other people contributing to this thread have bolted, cleaned, put up routes,

At a place like Maple cleaning off the loose rock does not reveal solid rock, it reveals more loose rock or slightly less chossy rock. At some point the person cleaning the route makes very specific decisions about what the holds will be and how hard the route will be.

Totally agree. I think people who have never done FAs imagine that overhanging routes in chossy areas somehow spring into being perfectly clean and ready to go. They have no idea how much cleaning and how much thought goes into developing such routes. Decisions ARE made.

2) An 80 foot route that is almost entirely 5.10 climbing has one very-short blank section. It is not certain whether this section is climbable, but it is minimally a V11 crux. It is clear that stronger climbers will not be interested in a route with such a short crux that can't be worked on the ground as a boulder problem. If two strategically placed pockets are added with the use of a power drill to the crux section, the route can be transformed into an enjoyable 5.10. Is chipping acceptable in this case?

So JT, I'm not usre I understand: according to you, since the above is OK (your second Yes), then we can surmise that if the route is 5.5, but the route has a short 5.7 section, it's ok to hammer, power drill and chip to make the whole route 5.5?

Hmmmmmmmmmmm

Bill

As usual, It Depends, but forced between answering "yes" or "no," here goes:

1. Marginally "No" because of the italicized phrase in the question, "Is it acceptable for the developer to enlarge these holds so that he can complete the first ascent? Had the phrase instead been to produce a sustained 5.12 route I would have been more inclined to vote "Yes."

2. Yes

3. Yes

Most of you guys need to wake up and smell the epoxy.

-Jay

Remember, we are not discussing cleaning routes, comforting holds, or glue reinforcing suspect features. We are simply considering cases where the rock presents free climbing difficulties that the route developer can not overcome.


.................

2) An 80 foot route that is almost entirely 5.10 climbing has one very-short blank section. It is not certain whether this section is climbable, but it is minimally a V11 crux. It is clear that stronger climbers will not be interested in a route with such a short crux that can't be worked on the ground as a boulder problem. If two strategically placed pockets are added with the use of a power drill to the crux section, the route can be transformed into an enjoyable 5.10. Is chipping acceptable in this case?

But a 5.5 leader chipping it down from a 5.7 is an invalid analogy? I don't think so, apples to apples JT. It could read thusly - picture this, same paragraph with the ratings changed:

... but it is minimally a V1 crux.

The difference between V11 and 5.10 is infinitely greater than the difference between 5.7 and 5.5. Not to mention that basically everyone can do a 5.7 move.

Do you really think V1 is 5.7? Have you ever climbed a V1?