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climbsomething
Nov 8, 2005, 1:22 AM
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In reply to: I know Shelley wanted to climb the Mace in Sedona every year and on our last attempt this year we got rained and snowed on. Mark B.
If so... just know that you've got a lot of people who will be there for you.
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squierbypetzl
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Nov 8, 2005, 1:25 AM
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Tragic thing to hear about...
Best wishes to her family and (numerous) friends.
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shelleys_bro
Nov 8, 2005, 1:29 AM
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Shelley's brother John here. The latest on the funeral is it will be Saturday morning (casket viewing at 9, funeral at 10). Once the location has been determined, I will post that and Daniel will post on www.overthecrux.com. My family has been reading posts on this site and are very appreciative of all that has been said.
Thanks to all for your condolences and kind words. I'm collecting pics, video clips and will be throwing them on a DVD for family members and will make sure copies are accessible to any others. Already I have over 3GB of content. I look forward to getting her photo albums and scanning them in.
If you have photos or video clips you can email them to me at john.windsor@gmail.com
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paganmonkeyboy
Nov 8, 2005, 1:37 AM
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wow...
speechless...
:( :cry: :cry:
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otc
Nov 8, 2005, 1:38 AM
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The main issue I have with this theory is that the webbing was not found on the ground attached to the carabiner, according to Dave it was found 8 feet away. If you try this scenario yourself as described by Charlie and Curt, which I have, you end up with the slings still attached to the carabiner. The second issue I have with this whole situation is that Shelley always doubled up her rap anchors. I know for a fact that she always carried a 25 foot piece of cordolette with her so she definitely had the means to back up this anchor.
Does anybody know how big around the tree was?
Daniel
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gullwing19
Nov 8, 2005, 1:51 AM
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My deepest aplogies to all those involved. What a terrible thing to be apart of.
Someone mentioned earlier about a wilderness first aid class which is an awesome idea. Being a paramedic, I have used that knowledge more than once in the backcountry and am so thankful that I had it at the time.
I would go a step further than the first aid class and recommend an EMT-Basic class to everyone which goes into much more detail about things like airway, breathing, and circulation, immobilization of the cervical spine etc. etc. I personally believe this is training that everyone should have, not just those of us who play outside. You can contact your local department of health for class info.
Again, my thoughts and prayers are with you guys.
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curt
Nov 8, 2005, 1:58 AM
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In reply to: The main issue I have with this theory is that the webbing was not found on the ground attached to the carabiner, according to Dave it was found 8 feet away. If you try this scenario yourself as described by Charlie and Curt, which I have, you end up with the slings still attached to the carabiner...
otc,
Mark (her climbing partner that day) claims otherwise--that the two independent loops of one-inch webbing were indeed still connected to the anchor carabiner, when Shelley was first found on the ground.
Leo also said that the slings were found some distance away, but since he was giving CPR to Shelley for 45 minutes, I suspect (guessing again) that the slings being moved were not his highest priority. I was told that the slings were potentially going to be used to secure Shelley to a backboard, so it appears likely that they were not left as they were originally found--and that Dave also saw the slings after they had been removed from the anchor carabiner, and placed aside.
Obviously, if someone who was actually there could confirm that the two loops of webbing were removed from Shelly's anchor carabiner by someone present, that would add one more piece to this puzzle.
Curt
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climbaddic
Nov 8, 2005, 2:14 AM
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In reply to: Except, in your second picture pass one of the water knots through the loop formed by the other sling--and then pull the slings tight, up against the back of a tree. The water knot will effectively jam in the second sling, up against the tree, perhaps giving a false sense that an actual hitch has been tied there. Curt
More like this.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=64151
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curt
Nov 8, 2005, 2:26 AM
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Yes. If you pull that yellow knot a bit farther through the loop in the red sling, and then tighten the two against a tree--you will see that it is quite likely that the yellow water knot will jam in the loop formed by the red sling.
Curt
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vivalargo
Nov 8, 2005, 2:34 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: The main issue I have with this theory is that the webbing was not found on the ground attached to the carabiner, according to Dave it was found 8 feet away. If you try this scenario yourself as described by Charlie and Curt, which I have, you end up with the slings still attached to the carabiner... Mark, her climbing partner that day claims otherwise--that the two independent loops of one-inch webbing were indeed still connected to the anchor carabiner, when Shelley was first found on the ground. Curt
Both of these descriptions cannot be true, and before the fumbled girth hitch theory can be established, the first description--that the slings were found 8 feet away, detached from the rope--must definatively be ruled out.
JL
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stick233
Nov 8, 2005, 2:34 AM
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I am very sad. Shelley will be missed very much. I met her very early on in my climbing career, when I first came to AZ. Every time we climbed together you could see the love for life and climbing with every move she made. I am very glad to have been able to meet her. She's an honestly GOOD person, a trait often hard to come by. I am glad that she lived the way she wanted to.
My condolences to her family... please know that she touched MANY peoples lives and I garauntee she was admired by all she met. :cry:
Rob
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curt
Nov 8, 2005, 2:44 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: The main issue I have with this theory is that the webbing was not found on the ground attached to the carabiner, according to Dave it was found 8 feet away. If you try this scenario yourself as described by Charlie and Curt, which I have, you end up with the slings still attached to the carabiner... Mark, her climbing partner that day claims otherwise--that the two independent loops of one-inch webbing were indeed still connected to the anchor carabiner, when Shelley was first found on the ground. Curt Both of these descriptions cannot be true, and before the fumbled girth hitch theory can be established, the first description--that the slings were found 8 feet away, detached from the rope--must definatively be ruled out. JL
Agreed. And in this respect, it would be excellent to hear from the first person to reach Shelley after the accident.
Curt
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imnotafraid
Nov 8, 2005, 2:47 AM
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I still can't believe this is true. I will miss climbing with Shelly in J-tree and QC or where ever. She truly was one of the most positive, nicest persons I have met. Deepest sympathy.
Bob Spak
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grovehunter
Nov 8, 2005, 2:53 AM
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This is terrible. My deepest sympathies go out to all family and friends.
JL mentioned that a properly rigged girth hitch will hold and it is Virtually impossible to seperate. (Short of an act of God) Is this rig safe as a single rappel anchor or should it have been backed up at least once? John also mentioned that the system was not triple checked by all present while the anchor was set up. JL reinforces the Idea in His book Rock Climbing. This is something I will never take for granted. Check it, double check it, triple check it and test it. Make sure the anchor system is REDUNDANT, EQUALIZED with NO EXTENSIONS. Any doubt at all - DON'T USE IT!
This is so sad. It also sounds by all accounts like this tradgedy could have been avoided. God bless you Shelley and Godspeed!!
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sonso45
Nov 8, 2005, 3:14 AM
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I've used many trees for anchors at Paradise Forks. I always try to have a second as a backup but have done it with a single tree. I recommend the timberline hitch. It is just the rope wrapped at least three times around the tree and connected with a locker to the strand you will rap on. The friction is great enough that the locker isn't even weighted when you rap. I will take this as a lesson to be more humble and double check all my anchors.
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climberchic
Nov 8, 2005, 3:14 AM
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John~thank you for thinking about Shelley's friends at the most difficult time in your life. We all really appreciate you keeping us up on when and where to pay our respects. I can't imagine what you must be going through. My deepest, sincerest, heartfelt apologies to you and your whole family.
When I got the message that I had a PM from Chris today, my first thought was "Wow! I haven't heard from him in a few years! He must have started climbing again since getting married and starting a family and wants to get together" Happy!
When I saw the title of the PM - "Shelley" and I thought, "Oh god, no". I stared at it for a moment convincing myself that Shelley broke her leg or arm or something mend-able and she was in the hospital and I was to come visit her and cheer her up.
I opened the e-mail and read the horrible news. I am still trying to cope with what I've read and I haven't even talked to her in months. I got an e-mail from PRG saying that Over the Crux had moved to the gym and was going to call her to see how the business was going and just catch up in general - Shelley was one of those people you become friends with and you know you'll be friends with for life, so what's a few months without catching up? But gee, I've been SO BUSY lately and just haven't found the time. Besides, I was going to see her at the AZ gathering in October. She was one of a very small handful of people I was looking forward to seeing again - my now once a year visits since I moved to Colorado - but unfortunately, it was rained out. I can't tell you how much I regret not just taking 5 minutes out of my day to give her a call.
I just feel... shock right now. I really can't believe that she's gone.
And scared. Shelley was THE SAFEST CLIMBER I knew. If this could happen to her, how could I not be vulnerable?
And such deep sorrow. Shelley was really one of the great people you meet in a lifetime. I've never heard her say something bad about another person and I've never heard anyone say anything even remotely negative about her. The words that first come to mind to describe Shelley:
Positive
Cheerful
Friendly
Strong
Smart
Outgoing
Humble
Happy
I remember when she won her division for the PBC a few years ago. She ran up to me and said "I got first! Seriously, can you believe it? Isn't that crazy?", as if she had won a door prize or raffle or something, not by her own merit.
My only condolence right now is that she truly lived her life to the fullest during her time here. More so than some people who live to be 80. She really did everything that she desired to do, instead of putting it off, like some of the rest of us. She just LOVED LIVING.
This is the last PM I received from Shelley. I invited her and a friend of ours, John, up for Christmas and New Years last year. We had just moved to Colorado and they were psyched to come up, see the cabin, and do some snowboarding. A perfect example of how Shelley lived her life - a real do-it-all attitude.
"Hey Erica,
So John and I have been talking and we seriously want to come out to Colorado and visit.. hit some slopes... John has taken some vacation time around Christmas and I have a school break. I don't remember the exact dates John has off - I'm sure he'll call you soon to see if it's okay for us to come those days. If it's not a good time, please let us know!
One of these days I'll hopefully run into you at the gym again... although this week I'm lucky enough to be going to Moab - woohoo! Jon Apprill is going to lead up the Rectory and I get to follow.. then a couple of days at Indian Creek should really beat me up.
Hope all is going well with you!
Shelley"
For her friends and her family, please know that she will be supremely missed. The world was a much better place with her in it and I feel a sadness for all of the people that didn't, and won't, get to meet her and be inspired by her, as I was, before she died. I feel deeply privileged for having known her and know that my life is better for it.
This poem by Henry Scott Holland has helped me through a few difficult times, I hope it does for you too. In the relatively little I knew about Shelley, I think would have wanted to be thought of this way...
"Death is nothing at all,
I have only slipped away
into the next room.
I am I,
and you are you;
whatever we were to each other,
that, we still are.
Call me by my old familiar name,
speak to me in the easy way
which you always used,
put no difference in your tone,
wear no forced air
of solemnity or sorrow.
Laugh as we always laughed
at the little jokes we shared together.
Let my name ever be
the household word that it always was.
Let it be spoken without effect,
without the trace of a shadow on it.
Life means all
that it ever meant.
It is the same as it ever was.
There is unbroken continuity.
Why should I be out of mind
because I am out of sight?
I am waiting for you,
for an interval,
somewhere very near,
just around the corner.
All is well."
Erica Messinger
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billl7
Nov 8, 2005, 3:38 AM
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In reply to: Here's the feedback I've received so far: ".... There was some discussion that the two pieces of web were short (10 feet) and the same color, and that this may have contributed to a mix-up. For TR anchors, I carry two 30' pieces of web -- one red and the other purple to help keep strands distinct. ...."
A minor side-note here would be that, of course, different colored ropes would not help if the girth hitch were tied out of sight (debris, lack of clearance) and not visually inspected afterwards. But that note pales in comparison to the person's point, which is quoted above, on how well two colors can help during knot/hitch inspection.
I especially appreciate the revelation which surfaced here about a sling's knot catching and feeling like a "mint" girth hitch (Ed/Curt combo I think).
These things highlight to me the significance of visual inspections over solely feel/touch whenever possible.
I know that there are still open issues as to what actually happened but learning the above from you all has been helpful to me. I didn't know Shelly Windsor but she sure sounds to have had the kind of character that I would wish for my own kids to attain.
Bill
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squierbypetzl
Moderator
Nov 8, 2005, 4:41 AM
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Ok, before I write anything else, know that I mean no disrespect by putting forward the following theory (ie, I´m going to speculate on what happened).
After reading through the posts in this thread and seeing climbaddic´s pics of what might have gone wrong with a girth hitch in the webbing, I see another possibility.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=64151
In this picture, we see a the knot pinned below the other sling and, when the 2 are pulled tight around, say, a tree, the bottom loop´s knot would be pulled up against loop above it, effectively pinning it down against the tree trunk.
Now see these pictures:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=64167
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=64168
(sorry, don´t have any webbing nearby so I used 2 different cordlettes)
Now, in the pics above, the lower loop´s knot is also pinned under above loop (loop = webbing). The key difference is that the lower loop was actually passed through the above loop.
In climbaddics pics, if the person putting up the webbing were to release pressure of it against the tree, the two pieces of webbing would separate (unless caught against the bark). In my pics, you can see that 1 of the loops is threaded through the other, as you would do in beginning a girth hitch.
(I promise to clean up the language immedietely and make it clearer; I just wanted to put this idea out as fast as I could in support of family and friends)
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yolanda
Nov 8, 2005, 4:54 AM
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:cry: Im a student of shelley's at mcc. I've had the honor of knowing miss shell. she is the greatest math teacher ever. today we all came to class like any normal day. clicking away on the computers before class. playing games checkin e mails, not a one prepared for the devastating news. then it came, a voice from the back of the room. silence was all over the room, no more clicking, no talking. only the sounds of sniffling, long sighs, wimpers of those of us who could not hold back the tears.
she is so amazing, the stories she told of her climbs, the pics she would share from computer. well she had to explain all those cuts and scrapes that she let show. she always was so proud of her climbs even with every little injury.
this is my 3rd semester with shelley, we're the same age. I've learned so much in her class. she is so dedicated. she was so proud of my grades this semester, I was actually learning everything. she made it easy to understand. she was so patient. I love her and I will miss her. everything about her.
Im no rock climber by any means. I just thought Id let Ya'll know. A different view. god bless to all those who's hearts she touched.
sincerely her math class at mcc monday & weds. nights :(
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vivalargo
Nov 8, 2005, 5:10 AM
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In reply to: Ok, before I write anything else, know that I mean no disrespect by putting forward the following theory (ie, I´m going to speculate on what happened). After reading through the posts in this thread and seeing climbaddic´s pics of what might have gone wrong with a girth hitch in the webbing, I see another possibility. http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=64151 In this picture, we see a the knot pinned below the other sling and, when the 2 are pulled tight around, say, a tree, the bottom loop´s knot would be pulled up against loop above it, effectively pinning it down against the tree trunk. Now see these pictures: http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=64167 http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=64168 (sorry, don´t have any webbing nearby so I used 2 different cordlettes) Now, in the pics above, the lower loop´s knot is also pinned under above loop (loop = webbing). The key difference is that the lower loop was actually passed through the above loop. In climbaddics pics, if the person putting up the webbing were to release pressure of it against the tree, the two pieces of webbing would separate (unless caught against the bark). In my pics, you can see that 1 of the loops is threaded through the other, as you would do in beginning a girth hitch. (I promise to clean up the language immedietely and make it clearer; I just wanted to put this idea out as fast as I could in support of family and friends)
I can't imagine that Shelley DIDN'T thread the runner through the other one--it's just that it seems she didn't pass the loop BACK THROUGH on itself to form the girth hitch. Exactly how the knot snagged on the sling is anyone's guess. My guess is that she fed sling through the other (blindly), and simply pulled the same end till the knot came too on the other sling, believing she had looped it back through itself by virtue of the knot snag.
For now, I think Curt's explanation has covered all the fine points, and Squierbypetzl's pics--even though it's not of a sling--show how a knot can get snagged.
I'd still be interested in knowing the dimensions and position of the tree, and how far she got down the rope before the anchor failed.
Above and beyond all of this technical talk, I feel very sad for all her friends and family. I'm very sorry this ever happened to someone I never had the pleasure of knowing.
JL
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curt
Nov 8, 2005, 5:12 AM
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In reply to: Ok, before I write anything else, know that I mean no disrespect by putting forward the following theory (ie, I´m going to speculate on what happened). Now see these pictures: http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=64167 http://www.rockclimbing.com/...p.cgi?Detailed=64168 (sorry, don´t have any webbing nearby so I used 2 different cordlettes) Now, in the pics above, the lower loop´s knot is also pinned under above loop (loop = webbing). The key difference is that the lower loop was actually passed through the above loop...
That is exactly the scenario I described earlier, except that water knots were tied in webbing.
Curt
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leo4aclimb
Nov 8, 2005, 5:16 AM
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Hello everybody.
I would like to open with an apology for taking so long before actually typing my own account of Shelley’s accident. I had some reflecting to do, and I needed time to emotionally recover, even if only partially.
It was about 1:15 pm on that beautiful day at the forks. The temperature was perfect, the air smelled brisk, and we were done warming up on pillow wall, about to go to Davidson wall and bag harder routes in the sun. Emily and Dave were already on their way to the wall, while I was picking up my rack and talking with a climber named John, when I saw Mark running towards us. His words "someone got hurt, call 911" didn't even echo at the canyon’s floor as all of us sprung into action. John ran to the parking lot, while Mark and I ran to gold wall. Mark wrapped the rope around a sturdy pine, but the rope did not make it to the ground. I set up the rap station for a single line rappel, checked mark's harness, belay device and locking biner and he started his descent. Right before he started lowering we agreed that what ever it looked like down there, we'd keep a level head.
As he lowered, I ran to the parking lot to make sure that john managed to call 911 and that a chopper had been requested. John then drove to meet the ambulance at I-40 and garland prairie Rd, and I ran back to gold wall, rappelled to the canyon, and started tending to Shelley.
She was lying on her stomach, facing the canyon floor, head towards gold wall. She was breathing, and I started tending to her wounds. I put a tourniquet on her left arm and Mark held it tight while I tried to feel Shelley’s body, looking for hidden injuries that needed immediate attention. Through out that time Mark and I were talking to Shelley, reassuring her that help is on its way. At that point my climbing partner Dave and my wife Dania appeared at the accident site. They hiked down from the north fork and brought with them Dave’s little first aid kit. We all shed our shirts and jackets, turning them into bandages as well as trying to keep Shelley warm. Dania took over talking to Shelley, and indeed tried to keep Shelley’s will to live kindled through three hours of the struggle, while Dave took upon himself to communicate with the E.M.T who by that time arrived to the scene, and were sending medical supplies from the top of the canyon. He also timed us, so we can release the tunicate every 15 minutes, trying to prevent toxins from building up in her arm. At a certain point a man showed up, exchanged words with Dave, and hiked up the canyon, sending his wife Liz, a pediatric nurse, to help us. Upon her arrival, the E.M.T sent us an I.V., and Liz managed to locate a blood vessel.
As Shelley’s breaths became shallower, we received an oxygen bottle, but the way Shelley was laying, it was impossible to mask her and we put the mask as close as we could to her nose and mouth, and she indeed began to breath deeper.
Once the oxygen bottle ran out, her breaths became shallower and shallower, and eventually stopped breathing. By that time a back board was already lowered to us, and we placed Shelley on it. I began chest compressions, while mark used the mask to resuscitate her. From that moment on, I was really unaware of my surrounding, and cannot describe the events. At some point a climber who was also an army medic took over resuscitating shelly, while I kept compressing. Finally the chopper arrived, and took Shelley away.
Once returning to phoenix, I talked to a friend of mine, a
Fourth year med student, and described Shelley’s symptoms. She is convinced that Shelley was unconscious the entire time, unaware of pain. This confirms what the E.M.T told us.
I will not comment on any other accident report, and enough theories have been posted. I discussed this with Dave, and in my opinion his account is quite accurate.
I would also like to thank Shelley's friend and family for their warmth and kindness. Despite our failure to save Shelley's life, they have accepted me and Dania as if we were part of them all along. That, along with the pictures of Shelley climbing, bouldering, mountaineering, laying on the beach and all the stories about her that will help both me and my wife to recover from this awful tragedy.
Shelley, I'm sorry there wasn't anything else I could do to help you. I hope that one day we will all meet, and if there's a cliff somewhere in heaven, I'll be honored to share a rope with you. You are an angel now, and maybe if you see me struggling on a climb, extremely run out or just frightened, you could lend me a hand.
Leo.
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brentar14
Nov 8, 2005, 5:17 AM
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I am the roommate of Lane Pollock, (lpollock, 2nd post 3rd page) and met Shelley through peak bagging with him. First peak I ever bagged with Lane, Cascade Mountain near Orem, Utah, Shelley went with us. It was a really hard hike, but she was encouraging and upbeat throughout. Next time I went hiking with Lane and her, me and another person got stuck up near the summit on another really tough hike to Broads Fork Twin Peaks. When we finally found the trail down, it was getting really dark, and Joel and I didn't have any flashlights with us. It was Shelley who volunteered to go back up the steep trail with flashlights to find us. Find us she did, nearly an hour up the trail after she'd already been through a grueling day. We were sure glad to see her as it had gotten to the point we couldn't see. She called it "Damsel rescued the distressed." All the glowing adjectives stated by previous posts are consistent with the person I knew. I am proud to be an alumnus of the same mission as her, Russia, St. Petersburg. We know where she is now. Do sveedonia, Shelley,
Brent Fredrickson
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curt
Nov 8, 2005, 5:26 AM
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Thanks for posting that account Leo--and don't beat yourself up about what theoretical actions could have potentially resulted in a more favorable outcome. It's clear that you did everything you possibly could have--and then some.
Curt
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jmlangford
Nov 8, 2005, 5:29 AM
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Erica, your post brought tears to my eyes. Shelley's incessant smile and upbeat attitude was contagious. What a fun person to be around!
Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.
Matthew 5:4
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Re: Shelley Windsor...
[
