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epic_ed
Nov 10, 2005, 12:03 AM
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Just a quick update -- according to the obituary posted by Hillary in the link above, funeral arrangments are as follows:
In reply to: The viewing will be held on Friday, November 11, 2005 at Bunker's University Chapel located at 3529 E. University Drive, Mesa, from 5:00 to 7:00 p.m. Funeral services will be held at the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day-Saints chapel located at 1718 N. Date, Mesa, on Saturday, November 12, 2005, at 10:00 a.m., with a prior viewing at 9:00 a.m. |
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hugepedro
Nov 10, 2005, 12:14 AM
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My condolences to all who knew her.
Here's one lesson to be learned.
Whenever I am doing anything with tied slings, I always keep my water knots in view, that way they cannot interfere with the "business" area of the anchor.
If the "Caught Knot" theory is correct, it may have been preventable by this simple practice.
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daithi
Nov 10, 2005, 12:23 AM
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In reply to: Each side of webbing is rated @ 4000 lbs x 8 = 32000 lbs give it or take, so if she was rappelling, you can easily do it with one webbing warped not two and there is absolutely no reason to multiply it by 8 times unless she was planning to pull some heavy haul bag or set up a rescue system.
Where are you getting 8 from? The picture shows 2 runners. One would have sufficed but she used two for redundancy (or else the two were girth hitched together to reach all the way around the tree).
In reply to: If some one could examine the inside of the webbing for any trace of abrasions or any sign of minor tear or damages then there is possibility that this was setup on a two separate anchors and both failed.
I believe the tree is still standing so at least one of the anchors held!
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billl7
Nov 10, 2005, 1:35 AM
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In reply to: Well, we'll find out more when we go up with the slings and find the tree -- yes, I'm volunteering to join. I'm betting that one tied sling, by itself, will not make it around the tree -- or if so, it will barely circle it making it improbable she clipped them as single slings. I think it's much more likely she felt she needed some extra length and attempted to girth hitch the two slings together.
I've had similar thoughts about them just reaching independently - but then the tri-axial load on the locking biner motivated a change from what someone else did the first time on that tree; but I'm making at least a couple of assumptions.
I know I've weighed in on favoring one or another theory. But we should set those aside during the on-sight as objectivity is really important. Organized on-sights are not easily replayed. And, IMHO, give overall priority to the healing aspect of why folks might go. Probably nothing new here; I'm just a freak about planning such things and I'm not even involved!
Peace,
Bill
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hand_sandwich
Nov 10, 2005, 2:20 AM
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I never had the pleasure of meeting Shelley, but based on the the incredible response here, she was a kindred spirit that I would have been blessed to have known. I lost a friend at the Gold Wall at Paradise Forks a few years ago, and want her family and friends to know that she spent her last moments in a place of absolute serenity, doing what she loved. The Forks are a tangible piece of Heaven on earth, from the vanilla-scented, crisp air, the sounds of play as the swifts and ravens dart through the air, the dark basalt flows from the rim to the canyon floor, dotted by the ever-reflecting Gold and Silver ponds, the happy little frogs that look like little "X"s as they float on the water, the yellow water snakes that highlight the ponds as they swim about, the blueness of the sky, that shines as its own light, to the wild roses, the brilliant lichen, and the rambuctuous squirrels, who know when packs are unsupervised. It took us a few months to return to the spot after our friend's passing, but when we did, we realized we could ask for no better place to remember him at. It was tough at first, to challenge ourselves with climbing at a place where we had lost a friend, but his memory added to the beauty and splendor of the place ... and so will Shelley's. God Bless.
Justin
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climbz_with_z
Nov 10, 2005, 3:46 AM
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She made a great impact on my life as a climber and a person. When I started climbing at PRG I didn't know anyone. Learning from watching other climbers I progressed over time. I relied much on strength until I met Shelley and Daniel in the bouldering area. Shelley's climbing style and body movement started a fire inside of me to learn to climb like her. She could move so fluid, controlled, and despite longer moves would still flow up the wall. Much later from this date, I got a chance to climb with her in Jack's Canyon. I remember working a 12b with her, just in shock how smooth and completely different she did the moves.
The same day as the accident, I was at jacks at that very same wall. I brought up that day to my partners because it was such a awesome feeling to climb with her. My last memories of her are the best and I will forever use that to aid in my love of this sport.
The sunday after I went into the gym and gave it my all as I know she would want us to continue. She would also want to smile's despite the pain we bare, even that she would spare us if it was possible. I am sorry to all the friends and family for not making it to the thing at Hung's house. I would have liked to have been able to tell of my gratitude and admiration of her to all of you. To close, thank you Shelley and Daniel for being the first of many amazing people I have got to meet in the climbing world. People like you are the real reason this sport is filled with close friendship's and a passion to climb.
Your friend,
Chris Zambito
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xcire
Nov 10, 2005, 4:53 AM
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this is BS why does F%#@ up Shit happen to good people. Thanks for the support on my first trad lead. Well keep you with us forever.
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bweide
Nov 10, 2005, 5:26 AM
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I think if any lesson can be learned from this tragic accident it is the ABSOLUTE NECESSITY of eliminating single points of failure in an anchor system by having at least two entirely independent anchor points. Either of the two plausible anchor failure scenarios could have been prevented or their likelihood significantly decreased if this rule had been followed.
If Shelley incorrectly girth hitched the first set of slings together, a second independent set of slings also girth hitched around the tree would have probably prevented the fatal fall, as it is highly unlikely she would have duplicated the same knot tying mistake twice.
If Shelley tried to clip together the ends of the two slings, each independently wrapped around the tree, one locking carabiner clipped through the ends of one sling with a second locking carabiner clipped through the ends of the second sling would have greatly reduced the chances of only clipping one end of each sling, as might have occurred with a single carabiner.
A friend posted that Shelley was adamant about never depending on a single anchor but the use of a single locking carabiner to clip into the slings seems to indicate she was not as careful about being dependent on a single failure point elsewhere in the anchor system. It is critical that the anchor system not have a single point of failure anywhere between the actual anchor point and the tie in. This means multiple independent anchors, multiple independent slings and multiple independent carabiners.
The other lesson here is the importance of having a second set of eyes check all critical links in the climbing safety system. Having a second person check the anchors can sometimes catch a obvious flaw that is invisible to the person who set up the anchor. I once set up a top rope anchor using three pieces of pro while giving two new climbers a lecture on the importance of eliminating all single points of failure. As soon as I declared my anchors finished one of the new climbers pointed out a single point of failure that I had overlooked.
Life is too precious to risk because we can't spare a couple of minutes to rig a better anchor or to have someone check our work. ALWAYS DOUBLE UP AND DOUBLE CHECK
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curt
Nov 10, 2005, 5:37 AM
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In reply to: I think if any lesson can be learned from this tragic accident it is the ABSOLUTE NECESSITY of eliminating single points of failure in an anchor system by having at least two entirely independent anchor points. Either of the two plausible anchor failure scenarios could have been prevented or their likelihood significantly decreased if this rule had been followed. If Shelley incorrectly girth hitched the first set of slings together, a second independent set of slings also girth hitched around the tree would have probably prevented the fatal fall, as it is highly unlikely she would have duplicated the same knot tying mistake twice. If Shelley tried to clip together the ends of the two slings, each independently wrapped around the tree, one locking carabiner clipped through the ends of one sling with a second locking carabiner clipped through the ends of the second sling would have greatly reduced the chances of only clipping one end of each sling, as might have occurred with a single carabiner. A friend posted that Shelley was adamant about never depending on a single anchor but the use of a single locking carabiner to clip into the slings seems to indicate she was not as careful about being dependent on a single failure point elsewhere in the anchor system. It is critical that the anchor system not have a single point of failure anywhere between the actual anchor point and the tie in. This means multiple independent anchors, multiple independent slings and multiple independent carabiners. The other lesson here is the importance of having a second set of eyes check all critical links in the climbing safety system. Having a second person check the anchors can sometimes catch a obvious flaw that is invisible to the person who set up the anchor. I once set up a top rope anchor using three pieces of pro while giving two new climbers a lecture on the importance of eliminating all single points of failure. As soon as I declared my anchors finished one of the new climbers pointed out a single point of failure that I had overlooked. Life is too precious to risk because we can't spare a couple of minutes to rig a better anchor or to have someone check our work. ALWAYS DOUBLE UP AND DOUBLE CHECK
No. In my opinion that is not the lesson that should be learned--although that is certainly something something to keep in mind.
Curt
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claramie
Nov 10, 2005, 5:43 AM
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There is nothing that we can say or do that really makes this type of thing palatable. I knew Shelley pretty well, climbed with her in the gym often and outside when we could manage. When I heard about this Saturday night I was shocked... I am still shocked. Shelley was a standard of the local climbing community and will always be dearly remembered.
I wish I could have been at Hong's on Sunday to support Mark as everyone gathered together. I was there in spirit.
Shelley, you will always be with us in memories.
Clayton
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oldrnotboldr
Nov 10, 2005, 3:16 PM
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Curious, does anyone know about how much rope was run out between the anchor slings and Shelley's rappel device? When people go to the site this would help show about where she was when the anchor failed.
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steelmonkey
Nov 10, 2005, 3:18 PM
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vivalargo wrote:
In reply to: What is not included here--and I've done everything but beg for this information--is: How is the re positioned on the ledge? Is it up against a wall, or stuck back in an alcove, or is it freestanding like a flagpole? It's important to know this so we can determine how hard it was to get BEHIND the tree. If getting behind the tree was dificult, then anyone wanting to rap off same would have to face the tree and REACH AROUND it to rig the slings.
John,
I haven't seen anyone respond with this info, so I'll try... I've been climbing at the Forks for 15 years, and often in the area where this occurred. I'd expect this tree was fairly well back from the canyon rim (8 feet or more) and you would be able to walk completely around it. Some of the smaller trees there have brush around the base and branches low to the ground, making it difficult to get an anchor established, but given the indicated size of this one, I would not expect it to have much of anything around it's base (the larger trees there tend to be pretty clean at their base). Consider this informed speculation.
G.
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sonso45
Nov 10, 2005, 3:26 PM
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Whenever I go to the Forks I see many rap and anchor lines dependent on a single large Ponderosa pine. I think that so many folks go there and use this setup for speed and because it's everywhere around you, you can get sucked into believing that's ok. The place is a toproper's dream, you can walk to any climb of any grade and just throw a rope over. Whatever knot or setup you use is your decision. But, we are influenced by what we see near us and especially after having used a single tree there, you would most likely feel comfortable with that setup. What she did was not so unusual at the Forks. M
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global_wowo
Nov 10, 2005, 4:15 PM
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In reply to: I think if any lesson can be learned from this tragic accident it is the ABSOLUTE NECESSITY of eliminating single points of failure in an anchor system by having at least two entirely independent anchor points. Either of the two plausible anchor failure scenarios could have been prevented or their likelihood significantly decreased if this rule had been followed. ...If Shelley tried to clip together the ends of the two slings, each independently wrapped around the tree, one locking carabiner clipped through the ends of one sling with a second locking carabiner clipped through the ends of the second sling would have greatly reduced the chances of only clipping one end of each sling, as might have occurred with a single carabiner. A friend posted that Shelley was adamant about never depending on a single anchor but the use of a single locking carabiner to clip into the slings seems to indicate she was not as careful about being dependent on a single failure point elsewhere in the anchor system. It is critical that the anchor system not have a single point of failure anywhere between the actual anchor point and the tie in. This means multiple independent anchors, multiple independent slings and multiple independent carabiners.
In June of 2004, Shelly graciously helped me with a climbing/rappelling event that I conducted for a church youth group (25 teenage boys and girls - most were first time climbers). I know first hand that she was meticulous about eliminating single failure points, as we talked about anchoring systems while she double checked my anchors.
While I tend to favor the plausibility of the girth hitch theory, allow me to advance a variation of the "two independent slings" idea. Perhaps the intent was to pass each sling around the tree and clip into the ends with a separate locking carabiner creating a redundant system (i.e., two slings, each with its own carabiner) with the only single failure point being the tree itself.
If, however, one end from each sling was clipped into each carabiner, the multiple slings and carabiners are no longer independent. Failure of any one piece results in catastrophic failure. This mistake would be easy to make since both slings are the same color. If the webbing crossed anywhere, even a quick visual inspection might not readily reveal the problem. An unlocked carabiner could have its gate opened by tangled webbing.
Admittedly, I am making some assumptions here:
1. The slings were long enough to reach around the tree (i.e. 10ft slings made from 1 inch webbing vs. slings made from 10ft of webbing).
2. There was a 2nd carabiner.
As mentioned elsewhere, the slings used need to be measured to determine the true length.
As to the existence of another carabiner, given the traumatic nature of the event and the fact that a locked carabiner was still attached to the rope, it probably never occurred to anyone to even look for a 2nd failed carabiner. Also, if the carabiner failed structurally, it could have been pulled a fair distance from the tree before falling off the slings, or even flung completely clear of the area as the whole system went over the edge.
I'm just throwing this out as another possibility to consider, but I think it does more adequately accommodate the observed equipment at the fall site, Shelly's known penchant for eliminating single failure points, as well as Daniel's statement that: In reply to: The rappel anchor setups they had used on the other two occasions that day, including the first rappel setup on the same tree as the accident, were created by looping each sling around the tree and clipping into the four resulting loops. No girth hitch.
Warren
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billl7
Nov 10, 2005, 4:16 PM
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In reply to: .... But, we are influenced by what we see near us and especially after having used a single tree there, you would most likely feel comfortable with that setup. What she did was not so unusual at the Forks. M
What Shelly did is still involves a lot of speculation. We'll have a better idea after the on-sight.
The tree that has been discussed very likely weighs well in excess of 10,000 pounds. I haven't heard that it was dead, unhealthy, or otherwise compromised. If it fails during a rap then its not even a fair crap shoot as to whether some backup anchor would hold the tree. Anyway, IMHO that's a plenty big tree by itself for the intended application as long as it is alive, healthy, etc.. Given that, the issue of redundancy is reduced to how the rap rope was attached to the tree (Edited to add: assuming there is no question about whether the discussed tree was actually used by Shelly).
Bill
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qqac
Nov 10, 2005, 4:27 PM
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With Daniel's new information about the slings being made of 10 ft. lengths of webbing, resulting in approximately 4-5 ft. length runners that would likely need to be joined in order to reach around the tree, perhaps different ways of joining the two slings behind the tree should be explored. Girth-hitching, as has been discussed, seems the most straightforward. An alternative might be that she tied the slings together with an EDK that rolled apart.
If the runners were 10 ft. loops, it might be more likely she just tied the ends rather than dragging the entire 10 ft. through in a girth hitch.
http://img466.imageshack.us/.../4681/edk10ds.th.jpg
http://img466.imageshack.us/.../8262/edk25rp.th.jpg
http://img466.imageshack.us/.../7242/edk34xu.th.jpg
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vivalargo
Nov 10, 2005, 4:58 PM
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I'm going to hold off any more speculation till Curt and friends go out there with the very slings she used--or replicas of same--and go through the motions of reverse engineering the accident. That likely will tell us as much as we'll ever know, and we can go from there. For now, we're starting to talk in circles.
JL
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shelleys_bro
Nov 10, 2005, 7:02 PM
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This week has felt like a month! Since posting my email address out there to gather stories and pictures of Shelley, I have received so much content. From the rock climbing community, people she knew from her LDS mission in St Petersberg Russia, from her Heritage Academy and MCC students, and long time family friends.
My family is reading her journals (she was good about writing often). A couple of things to note:
Shelley loved her Heavenly Father above all. She is strong in her faith, and loved her family and friends very much. to honor her memory, I will follow her example to align my life with the way she lived hers. Our family has been sealed together for "time and all eternity" That is the greatest gift we could ask for. Therefore, living in such a way to not compromise that eternal relationship is very important to us.
I miss swooping down and catching Shelley off-guard as I would get her in the 'fireman's carry' and spin her around to make her feel dizzy...something little brothers do I guess. Or practicing the latest wrestling move on her. :) even when Shelley went moutnain biking for the first time on a newly purchased GT at South Mountain. I was impressed at her natural talent!
Shelley loved many and was loved by many. We are expecting a very large turnout at the funeral. If you need information you can email me at john.windsor@gmail.com, or contact via cell ph. 480-203-8442.
Thank you for the kind words - these posts will be included in the DVD I am compiling.
John Windsor
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cracklover
Nov 10, 2005, 7:29 PM
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In reply to: 2. The slings were made with two 10' lengths of blue 1" tubular webbing from a spool of blue webbing we had at our store. 5. The rappel anchor setups they had used on the other two occasions that day, including the first rappel setup on the same tree as the accident, were created by looping each sling around the tree and clipping into the four resulting loops. No girth hitch.
I'd still like clarification on this point. If the tree was as large as everyone is saying, it seems like the above is an impossibility. So at least one of the three "facts" below is not true.
1 - The anchor tree is 16"-20" in diameter.
2 - Two slings were used, each made of 10' of 1" webbing, tied in a loop with a water knot (presumably with at least a couple inches of tail behind each knot)
3 - The anchor Shelly had made on this tree earlier in the day was not done by connecting these sling end-to-end, rather each was wrapped around the tree, and the four ends were all clipped together.
Until you figure out which one of these is correct and which is not, I don't see you can possibly make a reasonable guess as to what happened.
GO
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vivalargo
Nov 10, 2005, 9:08 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: 2. The slings were made with two 10' lengths of blue 1" tubular webbing from a spool of blue webbing we had at our store. 5. The rappel anchor setups they had used on the other two occasions that day, including the first rappel setup on the same tree as the accident, were created by looping each sling around the tree and clipping into the four resulting loops. No girth hitch. I'd still like clarification on this point. If the tree was as large as everyone is saying, it seems like the above is an impossibility. So at least one of the three "facts" below is not true. 1 - The anchor tree is 16"-20" in diameter. 2 - Two slings were used, each made of 10' of 1" webbing, tied in a loop with a water knot (presumably with at least a couple inches of tail behind each knot) 3 - The anchor Shelly had made on this tree earlier in the day was not done by connecting these sling end-to-end, rather each was wrapped around the tree, and the four ends were all clipped together. Until you figure out which one of these is correct and which is not, I don't see you can possibly make a reasonable guess as to what happened. GO
Totally true in my mind, GO. Till Curt goes to the sherif's office on Sat. and gets the exact slings (or sees how big they are and fashions two exactly like them) and goes to the exact tree and starts fiddling around, we're working with no hard facts. Till Curt checks back in, I'm hanging tight.
JL
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climbs4fun
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Nov 10, 2005, 9:56 PM
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I only met Shelley once, at the Gathering last year in Flagstaff. Her laughter and smile were infectious. She will be missed by so many.
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cracklover
Nov 10, 2005, 10:47 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: 2. The slings were made with two 10' lengths of blue 1" tubular webbing from a spool of blue webbing we had at our store. 5. The rappel anchor setups they had used on the other two occasions that day, including the first rappel setup on the same tree as the accident, were created by looping each sling around the tree and clipping into the four resulting loops. No girth hitch. I'd still like clarification on this point. If the tree was as large as everyone is saying, it seems like the above is an impossibility. So at least one of the three "facts" below is not true. 1 - The anchor tree is 16"-20" in diameter. 2 - Two slings were used, each made of 10' of 1" webbing, tied in a loop with a water knot (presumably with at least a couple inches of tail behind each knot) 3 - The anchor Shelly had made on this tree earlier in the day was not done by connecting these sling end-to-end, rather each was wrapped around the tree, and the four ends were all clipped together. Until you figure out which one of these is correct and which is not, I don't see you can possibly make a reasonable guess as to what happened. GO Totally true in my mind, GO. Till Curt goes to the sherif's office on Sat. and gets the exact slings (or sees how big they are and fashions two exactly like them) and goes to the exact tree and starts fiddling around, we're working hard facts. Till Curt checks back in, I'm hanging tight. JL
Agreed. Let me make one last point, though. Let's say for the moment that otc is correct, and it was possible to wrap each sling independently around the tree and clip all four ends. If so, and if it turns out that the slings were 10' long, rather than 10' of material, then that leads to another failure mode that seems more likely than the "knot where you think you have a girth" mode. Here's how it would work:
Take the two slings, and clip the locking biner into both of them. Then take the free end of the slings and wrap them around the tree and set them down on the ground. You now have a situation that looks like this:
http://im1.shutterfly.com/...00000016103BauWzVoxY
Then lets say she brings the biner over to clip them into the other two slings, and does so in the middle of the other two slings, like this:
http://im1.shutterfly.com/...00000016103BauWzVoxY
If you think about it, if both of the slings are the same color, you can clip through two slings, and have it either attached to the slings, or attached to *nothing*, and you cannot tell which.
http://im1.shutterfly.com/...00000016103BauWzVoxY
Curt and folks should seriously consider this possibility if it does turn out that the slings are long, not short.
GO
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climbaddic
Nov 10, 2005, 10:59 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: 2. The slings were made with two 10' lengths of blue 1" tubular webbing from a spool of blue webbing we had at our store. 5. The rappel anchor setups they had used on the other two occasions that day, including the first rappel setup on the same tree as the accident, were created by looping each sling around the tree and clipping into the four resulting loops. No girth hitch. I'd still like clarification on this point. If the tree was as large as everyone is saying, it seems like the above is an impossibility. So at least one of the three "facts" below is not true. 1 - The anchor tree is 16"-20" in diameter. 2 - Two slings were used, each made of 10' of 1" webbing, tied in a loop with a water knot (presumably with at least a couple inches of tail behind each knot) 3 - The anchor Shelly had made on this tree earlier in the day was not done by connecting these sling end-to-end, rather each was wrapped around the tree, and the four ends were all clipped together. Until you figure out which one of these is correct and which is not, I don't see you can possibly make a reasonable guess as to what happened. GO Totally true in my mind, GO. Till Curt goes to the sherif's office on Sat. and gets the exact slings (or sees how big they are and fashions two exactly like them) and goes to the exact tree and starts fiddling around, we're working hard facts. Till Curt checks back in, I'm hanging tight. JL Agreed. Let me make one last point, though. Let's say for the moment that otc is correct, and it was possible to wrap each sling independently around the tree and clip all four ends. If so, and if it turns out that the slings were 10' long, rather than 10' of material, then that leads to another failure mode that seems more likely than the "knot where you think you have a girth" mode. Here's how it would work: Take the two slings, and clip the locking biner into both of them. Then take the free end of the slings and wrap them around the tree and set them down on the ground. You now have a situation that looks like this: http://im1.shutterfly.com/...00000016103BauWzVoxY Then lets say she brings the biner over to clip them into the other two slings, and does so in the middle of the other two slings, like this: http://im1.shutterfly.com/...00000016103BauWzVoxY If you think about it, if both of the slings are the same color, you can clip through two slings, and have it either attached to the slings, or attached to *nothing*, and you cannot tell which. http://im1.shutterfly.com/...00000016103BauWzVoxY Curt and folks should seriously consider this possibility if it does turn out that the slings are long, not short. GO
You have a valid point, but Mark (her climbing partner that day) said she partually weighted by tugging on a sling. I don't think that can work in your example. I am going with unfinished girth hitch.
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climberchic
Nov 11, 2005, 2:28 AM
Post #249 of 280
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Registered: Apr 24, 2000
Posts: 2077
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Certainly the girth hitch theory seems the most likely.
A few things did cross my mind though...
A few posters mentioned Shelley adamantly endorsing a multi-point failure system to them. However, it is possible that she did this to advocate by-the-book methods to promote good habits (an admirable quality). Also when responsible for many others, such as a church youth group, she was probably ultra-safe. It is possible she may have let those standards lax if it is just her a regular climbing partner, if she felt confident with her single anchor system. I certainly have been guilty of this - not practicing what I teach. Do any of her very recent, especially Forks, climbing partners remember if she used single-point anchors regularly?
This and Manny's quote below would explain her out-of-ordinary single-point system.
In reply to: But, we are influenced by what we see near us and especially after having used a single tree there, you would most likely feel comfortable with that setup. What she did was not so unusual at the Forks. M
The other thing that I've been thinking about is way out there, but does anyone know if she set up this anchor system from scratch? She rapped off that same tree earlier that day (correct?). Is it possible that they left the system there from their earlier rap? I don't want to speculate until I know if it was or not.
Sorry if I'm adding too much to this mix. I've been following everyones posts and have been very impressed at how respectful you all have been and how much time everyone is putting in to this. The conversation just got me thinking, that's all.
Erica
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tradrenn
Nov 11, 2005, 3:42 AM
Post #250 of 280
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Registered: Jan 16, 2005
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In reply to: Shelley, I'm sorry there wasn't anything else I could do to help you. I hope that one day we will all meet, and if there's a cliff somewhere in heaven, I'll be honored to share a rope with you. You are an angel now, and maybe if you see me struggling on a climb, extremely run out or just frightened, you could lend me a hand. Leo.
:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:
I'm speachless
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Re: Shelley Windsor...
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