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alakso
Dec 15, 2005, 4:21 PM
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I've been considering getting the MH Windstopper tech jacket and vest to use as a mid layer. But a Mountaineering friend of mine has mentioned that these pieces of gear are a tad heavy. Any recommendations on windproof mid layers for Mountaineering? One of the things I like about the above mentioned MH mid layers is the pit zips for regulating temps. during strenuous activities. I also love wool and have used wool as a mid layer (sweater) and shell (jacket and pants) when I used to hunt. I've been looking at wool as a base and mid layer for Mountaineering use. Would a windproof wool mid layer breath enough for strenuous activities like Mountaineering? Everyones thoughts are greatly appreciated! alakso
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overlord
Dec 15, 2005, 4:35 PM
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i have a really good fleece made of polartec windpro. its more wind resistant than normal fleece (though supposedly not so much as membrane ones, but i never had any problems with it even in strong wind (if you know what "burja" means, you know what im talking about)) and more breathable. it would kinda work as a mid layer. as for winpro wool... i doubt it would serve. and why do you want a windproof midlayer anyway?? you just want to take off the top one and still be windproof??? in such cases i prefer to take off one of the "not-top" layers.
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joshy8200
Dec 15, 2005, 6:33 PM
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http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=24731672&memberId=12500226
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mtnbkrxtrordnair
Dec 15, 2005, 6:54 PM
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In reply to: I also love wool and have used wool as a mid layer (sweater) and shell (jacket and pants) when I used to hunt. I've been looking at wool as a base and mid layer for Mountaineering use. Would a windproof wool mid layer breath enough for strenuous activities like Mountaineering? Leave the wool at home. Fleece is lighter, just as warm and dries much faster. If you want windproof, try a windstopper fleece. Best of both worlds, not quite as breathable as regular fleece but pretty good, and available with pit zips.
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chanceboarder
Dec 15, 2005, 7:16 PM
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marmot evolution half zip or evolution jacket might work for you. light weight, wind resistent, and breathable. Marmot Evolution Half Zip
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agrauch
Dec 15, 2005, 8:04 PM
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Marmot Driclime Windshirt. Best mid-layer ever made and it works as a light shell when conditions are dry. Forget windstopper. It doesn't breath well enough for a mid-layer.
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epic_ed
Dec 15, 2005, 9:43 PM
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I have one of these and it absolutely rocks (very similar to the Marmot garment above; REI also has one): http://www.mountainhardwear.com/...cat=35&viewAll=False Nice and lightweight, but windproof and enough material to consider it an insulating layer. Ed
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puerto
Dec 15, 2005, 9:54 PM
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Altrec has a windproof fleece jacket for like $30
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pico23
Dec 15, 2005, 10:50 PM
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The problem with windproof mid layers is they don't breath. WindPro is supposedly better than windstopper which was basically a VB. Wool still rocks. The only time I don't take it is when it's warm enough to rain. Then I stick to fleece. I find fleece bulky and not tremendously warmer (if any warmer). Also wool tends to breathe better. Silk, wool and down are still superior insulators and breathers in the right scenario. For a sweaty bastard like me staying dry from the iside is key. I need all the breathability I can get from the inside out. If it's that windy my shell layers shed the wind. If it's too cold for my light/mid weight wool I toss on the primaloft, fleece just doesn't fit into the equation much.
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cjstudent
Dec 15, 2005, 11:04 PM
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The fabric I love is Windstopper N2S, Marmot and Mountainhardwear both have versions. I have the MH version, the Transition Windshirt and Tights
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sspssp
Dec 15, 2005, 11:49 PM
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In reply to: The fabric I love is Windstopper N2S, Marmot and Mountainhardwear both have versions. I have the MH version, the Transition Windshirt and Tights The featherweight Transition Windshirt is my favorite all around top. Although the featherweight is lighter than what I would normally call a mid layer (although I will frequently wear it over poly pro, so I guess technically...). For those intermediate conditions (50s~60s F), where you might be climbing a windy, shady, face and then move over to a calm, sunny corner, it is great. It really stops the wind. However, unlike most windproof garmets, it is light enough that you don't overheat as quickly in the sun (unfortunately, they discontinued the mens titanium/silver version and you can only get the mens in sun baking dark red or dark blue). I picked up a pair of the tights, but I ripped through the knees pretty quickly on the rock.
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kixx
Dec 16, 2005, 1:24 AM
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The best thing to do is experiment, use the stuff you buy regularly (when you're not climbing) and try different layering combinations. This is what I've settled on: Base layer designed for runners. Light and wicking found anywhere for real cheap. Wool mock neck shirt (just as warm, more breathable, and lighter than fleece as Pico stated) Water resistant wind shirt/shell made of Epic http://www.wildthingsgear.com/epic_hooded.html This is very breathable, nearly wind proof, almost waterproof, very packable, and best of all it's sooooo multipurpose. I can even use it to keep wet snow off my down puff jacket, throw in on over a T shirt in the summer when the clouds open or the wind starts biting... you'll never use a soft shell in the summer. When the action slows and the temps drop then I throw on a puffy jacket - either down or Primaloft depending on where I am. (Potentially wet climes always use the Primaloft) Find a system and keep an open mind - it's hard to sort through all the marketing claims... even people on this board get sucked into it. Everyone wants you to buy the SUV when all you really want is a '78 VW. If you get some time take a trip down to Wild Things Gear in North Conway, NH and they'll have plenty of older stuff on the racks that won't cost as much as the jacket linked above. Their stuff isn't pretty but it's more functional than anything else. Also check out http://www.mec.ca/index.html
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andrewbanandrew
Dec 16, 2005, 6:28 AM
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lklhj
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talons05
Dec 16, 2005, 1:34 PM
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I would avoid the wool for the mid layers. It works great for base layering (Ibex, Smartwool) but as someone else said, it's heavier than fleece and takes MUCH longer to dry. Ditto the marmot evolution, it's one of the most versatile pieces of clothing I've ever owned. Cheers, A.W.
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epic_ed
Dec 16, 2005, 6:50 PM
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This is the other one from REI that I was refering to: http://www.rei.com/...HP_MENS_CLOTHING_TOC I've found the "windproof" layer of the MH article to be breathable enough for me. Then again, I primarily use it aid climbing and hiking or ice climbing may require more exertion. Bottom line for me -- I really like layering with these type of garments. I've found mine to be very versatile. Ed
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sspssp
Dec 17, 2005, 12:25 AM
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In reply to: If you buy a windstopper jacket, you will overheat, no question. They are about as breathable as goretex (maybe a little more) which is to say, not very much. You'll find yourself getting much wetter from the inside than from the outside. A light, waterproof/breathable (e.g. goretex paclite) storm shell. keep pockets to a minimum, avoid pit zips if you can--these things just add weight and bulk. if it's really stormy out, you'll be cold as hell anyway and wouldn't want to open your pitzips. this is of course different if you are say, backpacking in a rainstorm, but you're alpine climbing, so you shouldn't run into rain, only snow. Well, each to their own, but I like my fabric to be windproof and I like pit zips for venting (read breathability) and to avoid overheating and sweating. I find the hard thing to handle is the temperature swings between shady and windy and sun and calm (this usually happens faster than say an absolute change in degrees F). I find that if I go with lightweight-windproof, such as a light weight, windproof jacket (which is what I used before switching to a soft shell) and/or a thin hard shell with pit zips, I do ok at both extremes. When I do overheat/sweat, it tends to be focused under my arms. So I make sure all my layers (except the base poly pro) all have pit zips. I can really cool off by opening them all up and, even though I might be wearing more than one layer that is windproof, I get enough ventilation where it counts to keep my inside pretty dry. I wish I could get the featherweight Transition N2S with a pit zip (not that I ever expect to see that in such a light weight garmet). I guess to it depends on what sort of alpine climbing you are talking about, but I do plenty of alpine climbing (Sierras) where the storms tend to be hard rain with temps anywhere from the 40s to the 60s. For windy but warmer conditions, I will wear the hard shell over just poly pro and again I find the pit zips ideal for regulating temperature and venting.
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jhump
Dec 17, 2005, 3:27 AM
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Marmot driclime or equivalent is best. Second are the lightest soft shells you can find, ie TNF flight series. Not really windproof, but wind resistant enough. Breathability is the key, no vapor barriers.
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pazer0
Dec 19, 2005, 9:33 PM
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IMO windstopper breathes very poorly. I use Schoeller (or any of the variations) outer layers now and love them - breath well, good wind protection, and even water resistant. Goretex goes over the top for heavy precipitation.
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crackers
Dec 20, 2005, 2:16 PM
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Skifans, the Schoeller wool softshell, is the same weight or lighter than comparable synthetics such as Dryskin, . Ibex uses that material the most in the USA, but you can find it in some Mammut stuff. (i think iglu also makes something for those living in SL or HR.) I really like the wool stuff. Ibex also makes wool longjohns, but they can reek when i wear them.
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tradgal
Dec 20, 2005, 2:22 PM
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MH featherweight transition zip-t. It breaths, blocks the wind, great for most conditions, very lightweight, can be used in MANY conditions, use it alone or in a layering system.
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claramie
Dec 20, 2005, 3:08 PM
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Two options but neither really fit waht you're asking for: BD Alpine Shirt: Wind resistant water resistant mid layer. Great shirt but you might want to buy it one size larger because the sleeves are short (and I am only 5'9" w/0 ape index). Marmot Sharp Point Jacket: Great softshell jacket. Highly water resistant and windproof, this softwhell is warmer than many others. This could be a mid-layer if you are in cold weather or high altitude, but is more likely an outer layer for moderate ice climbing or warmer mountaineering. TNF Windpro Fleece: Seem to stop the wind pretty well, but I never wore one mountaineering. CL
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jimdavis
Dec 22, 2005, 7:15 AM
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I have a EMS version of the Marmot windshirt and love it. I also have the Marmot Sharp Point and it's my primary shell ice climbing. I was cragging in the Sharp Point the other day; LS polypro top, and the Sharp Point, and it was the ticket for climbing in 20-30 degree temps. I'll be doing a 5 day backpacking trip this January in northern Maine, and don't plan on bring a fleece or wool insulating layer. My baselayer top, windshirt, soft shell, hard shell, and puffy coat are it. I'm pretty sure it'll work really well, time will tell though. Cheers, Jim
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stymingersfink
Dec 22, 2005, 10:52 PM
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In reply to: I've been considering getting the MH Windstopper tech jacket and vest to use as a mid layer. But a Mountaineering friend of mine has mentioned that these pieces of gear are a tad heavy. Any recommendations on windproof mid layers for Mountaineering? One of the things I like about the above mentioned MH mid layers is the pit zips for regulating temps. during strenuous activities. I also love wool and have used wool as a mid layer (sweater) and shell (jacket and pants) when I used to hunt. I've been looking at wool as a base and mid layer for Mountaineering use. Would a windproof wool mid layer breath enough for strenuous activities like Mountaineering? Everyones thoughts are greatly appreciated! alakso I have the Transition Featherweight Zip T and used to wear it under my extremely breathable soft-shell Schoeller jacket while ice climbing. My theory was that the scholler would shed the exterior moisture, while the wind-proof barrier would provide the warmth. The problem I found for MYself was that I would rapidly overheat, and this with only the two layers mentioned above. I would sweat during the climbing, which would remain trapped near my skin due to lack of airflow. This meant that while bringing up my 2nd, I would get quickly chilled moving rapidly towards frozen. Even though it is sold and marketed as N2S, I still wouldn't wear it N2S. I have relegated it to summer climbing, when I probalby won't be getting wet. I can climb in a light T, and carry the Transition as a windshirt/jacket for the shady/windy stuff. It has kept me reasonably warm when showered on, if my activity level is moderate to high. Now, here's my thoughts on layering... Begin with the skin-tight moisture wicking base of your choice. I use Polypro cause it's what i've got, but have considered moving to the Ibex wool baselayer. Market-eers tell me that wool doesn't generate the funk that synthetic base layers can. Maybe so. I generate plenty of funk on my own, especially after living in a base layer for days on end. Over that, I generally wear a schoeller layer. The BD Alpine shirt/pants are what I use most. They repel water quite well, while breathing enough that periods of exertion do not result in being soaking wet. Most of my climbing/skiing is done in this outfit. On days with frozen precipitation, I will add my Gamma SV jacket to my upper body, keeping my core warmer while allowing my legs to radiate some of the heat generated while being active. On days that start pretty cold, I may do one of two things:
Add an insulation layer between my base layer and my schoeller... sometimes an old wool sweater for the upper body and/or a pair of fleece pants for my legs or... Throw on the gore-tex shells, top and/or bottom It depends on the forecast for the day and what will be easier to remove and throw in my pack if necessary. On the days that start out colder than a witches teat (and possibly get COLDER still), I'll combine the two and try to keep my activity level just below the point that I will begin to sweat. If you're not moving as fast as you would like, remove a layer and pick up the pace, but still no faster than you can go without sweating. When you stop to rest, you will of course replace as many layers as you need to stay warm. Also into the pack goes the down jacket(every time in winter and sometimes in the summer). I've got a 650 fill or a 700 fill to tailor to the expected need. This will cover most of the circumstances I expect to need to deal with. VB liners are another subject, but I've no experience with them. The theory I have found to work best for me is: Base layer+(optional)insulating+repelling layers+(optional)windproof-waterproof shells My keys to staying warm:
Everything except the shell MUST breathe in order to work. Wear only enough to be slightly chilled before activity. If I notice I am beginning to sweat, remove a layer or tone down the activity level. Stay warm. It's more difficult to re-warm than it is to put on and remove a necessary layer. YMMV :wink:
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dvd
Dec 22, 2005, 11:16 PM
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as has been already stated, everybody is gonna need something different to keep them warm I personally enjoy my Marmot DriClimb Windshirt, I use it for pretty much everything in a range of temperatures, (belay bitch for ice to standing around the bond fire). I even take it backpacking in the rockies for a shell and insulating layer. My friends have similar jackets from REI, NF, MH exc. we all enjoy ours cause they fit, dont worry about the brand name, just get one that fits right, they are pretty much the same thing.
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sspssp
Dec 22, 2005, 11:21 PM
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In reply to: Begin with the skin-tight moisture wicking base of your choice. I use Polypro cause it's what i've got, but have considered moving to the Ibex wool baselayer. Market-eers tell me that wool doesn't generate the funk that synthetic base layers can. Maybe so. I generate plenty of funk on my own, especially after living in a base layer for days on end. Are you using anti-microbial poly pro? My old poly pro used to generate a severe funk. But even on road trips, wearing the same poly pro for days, my current poly pro itself doesn't get much funk. You have to look close at the label, some poly pro is anti-microbial and some itsn't (it costs a few dollars more too).
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