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avitripp
Jan 6, 2006, 10:03 AM
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Whats the (preferred) minimum length screw you should use for making abalakovs(v-threads)??
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stovetop
Jan 6, 2006, 10:31 AM
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I use a 22cm or a 19cm screw for V-Threads (I prefer 22cm). I also try and keep the distance between the holes roughly the same length as the screw itself. That's how I was taught anyway. StoveTop
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iceisnice
Jan 6, 2006, 3:27 PM
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i don't think there is a "minimum" length. it depends on the ice. i usually use a 17 or 22cm screw (never seen a 19cm screw). however, i would recommend doing what i did many years ago......go out to the ice and make a bunch of threads on the ground with various screws in various ice conditions. educating yourself is more valuable than anything anyone here, or in a book, can tell you.
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stovetop
Jan 6, 2006, 3:43 PM
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In reply to: (never seen a 19cm screw). Black Diamond Turbo Express comes in 19cm. The packaging must have been at a weird angle, because I thought I was buying a 16cm and didn't notice till I got home. Comes in handy though at belays and for V-Threads. StoveTop
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iceisnice
Jan 6, 2006, 3:50 PM
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huh, i always thought they were 17. geuss i'm getting 2cm more security than i thought! hehe
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stovetop
Jan 6, 2006, 3:56 PM
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They used to be 17cm, then they changed to a 16cm. I think the 19cm was added at that time, not sure. There are now 5 sizes 10,13,16,19,and 22. StoveTop
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graniteavenger
Jan 7, 2006, 3:43 AM
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It doesn't matter how long it is, an extra 2cm always helps Oh, sorry, you're talking about ice srews..... :wink:
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luke_flowers
Jan 10, 2006, 3:25 AM
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I agree with the 22cm length myself....a 22cm screw is nice for adding a little security at the anchor, so doesn't add bulk that wont be used. As far as using a shorter length of screw for abalakovs, in my opinion the decrease in volume of ice supporting a rappel from a 22cm to 17cm length screw is considerable and not worth sacrificing the safety factor on. The other eventualities that preclude using a 22cm to build abalakovs essentially preclude building them period IE. ice too thin or detached from rock (yeck....makes me sick just thinking about using an abalakov under those conditions) One of the difficulties with going out and testing what sizes of abalakovs will hold in what ice is the potential for overconfidence in the system, and the willingness to shave off more and more from the size or redundancy of the abalakov. How do you know what safety factor is built in if there has been no failure, and what factor is acceptable to you. Myself I've never heard of any failure of 22cm abalakovs or experienced any situation in the hundreds I've built to indicate a chance of failure, and that makes me perfectly happy at the cost of only a few extra grams.
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virginia_alpinist
Jan 10, 2006, 3:37 AM
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Ditto on the 22cm Vthreads....and of course you can always back up the 1st Rap..which of course is always the FAT guy!
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iceisnice
Jan 10, 2006, 4:14 PM
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kinda surprised someone is arguing against practising. that's dumb. nothing can replace a vast wealth of knowledge and experience. i think the best thing you could do is find out how v-threads hold in ALL kinds of ice and at various screw lengths. someday you will find yourself without a 22cm screw and it will kinda be nice to know your options. it is extremely bad advice to tell someone there is only one way to do something. being versatile is essential to climbing.
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brianinslc
Jan 10, 2006, 4:42 PM
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In reply to: kinda surprised someone is arguing against practising. that's dumb. I'd highly suggest practising making V-thread, to be sure. It takes a bit of saavy to get the holes to connect. Another reason why a 22cm screw makes sense. If you miss the end of the hole, and hit the tube early, then you still might have something pretty usable, with more margin due to the longer length. Its easier for me if I leave a screw in the first hole as it makes it easier to sight in where to put the second hole (even threading a stubby into the first hole). And, playing with a hooker, finding the optimal angles, orientation (horizontal or vertical?) all are things you want to have dialed before that unplanned, ugly decent in the dark when its storming and your very tired and cold... Brian in SLC
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forkliftdaddy
Jan 10, 2006, 5:06 PM
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Here's another question. Anybody do vertical threads, where the holes line up vertically, not horizontally? I met a guy who does only vertical threads. It's easier, for sure, but seems it would be weaker as the load is mostly on the upper screw hole.
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brianinslc
Jan 10, 2006, 5:34 PM
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In reply to: Here's another question. Anybody do vertical threads, where the holes line up vertically, not horizontally? I met a guy who does only vertical threads. It's easier, for sure, but seems it would be weaker as the load is mostly on the upper screw hole. I do. Really depends on the ice, though. Sometimes, it seems like a vertical orientation will take advantage of possibly better layers of ice. Depends if you notice the ice cracking more horizontally, or vertically, sometimes, maybe (ha ha). Typically, its seems like I v-thread more at the top of a climb, or, at the top of a pitch. Ice tends to be lower angle and might have a bit of a roll over in it. These, in my experience, tend to shear or crack out more horizontally than vertically, hence, I like a vertically oriented anchor in them, whether screws or a v-thread. But really, bottom line, I let the ice dictate. -Brian in SLC
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lovesclimbing
Jan 10, 2006, 5:43 PM
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I cant think of the last time that I had let alone used a 22cm screw for v-threads or leading. Most of the time I am working off of 16 cm screws for that. I know that I will get hashed for that, I am not trying to tell anyone not to use 22cm screws but in many cases they simply dont work (if you want the full length) when I have to use short screws I will also build two v-threads.
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luke_flowers
Jan 11, 2006, 2:45 AM
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In reply to: kinda surprised someone is arguing against practicing. that's dumb. In reply to: it is extremely bad advice to tell someone there is only one way to do something. If you read the question and response a little more carefully you might notice that at no point is there any argument against practicing a technique, only a caution against over-reliance on minimizing safety factors...for example: If I take a half dozen lead falls on an 8mm rope and the rope doesn't break it must be OK to always lead on an 8mm rope right? Also the original question asks what the preferred minimum length is, and the responses generally give a single preferred minimum length. No one has so far stated that there is only one way of doing things, only what their personal comfort level is. Please be a little more careful when you hand out accusations of being dumb to people who's views are only expressed in a couple of sentences or paragraphs, there is often an extensive thought process that accompanies them. If you disagree, fine, just try starting off from a position of respect for someone you apparently don't know. Happy Climbing
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tuna
Jan 11, 2006, 3:42 AM
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I can't believe no one else caught this brianinslc said
In reply to: And, playing with a HOOKER, finding the optimal angles, orientation (horizontal or vertical?) all are things you want to have dialed before that unplanned, ugly decent in the dark when its storming and your very tired and cold... Ummm thought we were talking about climbing ice?
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iceisnice
Jan 11, 2006, 7:11 PM
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"No one has so far stated that there is only one way of doing things, only what their personal comfort level is" "The other eventualities that preclude using a 22cm to build abalakovs essentially preclude building them period " ???????
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brianinslc
Jan 11, 2006, 11:50 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: And, playing with a HOOKER, finding the optimal angles, orientation (horizontal or vertical?) all are things you want to have dialed before that unplanned, ugly decent in the dark when its storming and your very tired and cold... Ummm thought we were talking about climbing ice? Funny! Talk about lobbin' a slow easy one down the middle... -Brian in SLC
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luke_flowers
Jan 12, 2006, 2:42 AM
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In reply to: Posted: 11 Jan 2006 19:11 Post subject: Re: Abalakov Question -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "No one has so far stated that there is only one way of doing things, only what their personal comfort level is" "The other eventualities that preclude using a 22cm to build abalakovs essentially preclude building them period " ??????? To the best of my knowledge 22cm is the longest commercially available ice screw, and since it is capable of creating holes 22cm in length and under, it is in fact more versatile than screws of shorter length, hence if a 22cm screw cannot be used then neither can a screw of shorter length (in the creation of Abalakov anchors anyway). So rather than stating that there is only one way of doing things I am in fact arguing for a larger margin of safety and greater flexibility. Wherever possible I carry my 22cm, and bury it to the hilt where the ice is thick enough, if not I go to the greatest depth possible. Although to tell the truth if there are no spots where that is possible I start looking for trees, bolts, piton placements (it's nice to keep that hammer on the ice tool) or a walk off...call me chicken, but I'm still here. Happy climbing
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