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#0 and 00n tcu's safe??
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bodyboarder


Jan 11, 2006, 3:45 PM
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#0 and 00n tcu's safe??
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Sorry if there have been other threadsnon this, i coudln't find one that i felt was sufficient. I'm just begining trad climing and with all this stuff about aliens going on i just wanted to know how safe my little tcu's are. They are rated at 4.4 kn.. does this mean they are not good for anything but aid or am i just worrying too much. has anyone ever had one failon them(not as aresult of poor placement). thanks


Jason


skinner


Jan 11, 2006, 3:57 PM
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They are absolutely unsafe for any climbing whatsoever.
please send them to me immediately for safe disposal.
PM me for shipping details 8^)


crimpstrength


Jan 11, 2006, 4:03 PM
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Metolius says the 00 is rated at 6.35 kn.

To answer your question, the entire powercam set from 00 to 7 is on my free rack and I love them.


dingus


Jan 11, 2006, 4:10 PM
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http://www.metoliusclimbing.com/steeptechniques.htm

Pay particular attention to the 'near full retraction' and the 'double up' advice.

With those smallest cams you have a very, very narrow range of active cam travel. It can be a challenge, for example, with tiny FCU's, to insure all 4 cams are actually in contact with the rock.

I can't tell you what to do, but I would never routinely trust my life to a single 00 or 0 TCU placement. I say routinely cause sometimes its any port in a storm.

Mentally I think of them as aid pieces and short fall... better n' nothing in other words. Some suggest they are better than nothing onll so long as you remember their strength and limitations. Better n' nothing might just give you a false sense of security to take a grounder too.

You're the pilot. Its YOUR gear. YOU have to evaluate this in the context of your climbing. You should do the research, visit the variosu mfg web sites and learn the recommended uses for each and every piece of gear you use.

This is a start of course. But don't just visit Metolius. Check out BD, Pretzl, etc. Read all you can.

Cheers
DMT


crimpstrength


Jan 11, 2006, 4:13 PM
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Dingus,

Great point,

the petzl catalog is especially helpful, the back section is all recommended uses of their gear, phenominal


pico23


Jan 11, 2006, 4:16 PM
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In reply to:
Sorry if there have been other threadsnon this, i coudln't find one that i felt was sufficient. I'm just begining trad climing and with all this stuff about aliens going on i just wanted to know how safe my little tcu's are. They are rated at 4.4 kn.. does this mean they are not good for anything but aid or am i just worrying too much. has anyone ever had one failon them(not as aresult of poor placement). thanks


Jason

Sort of going back to an unrelated thread, not all climbing equipment is designed for all types of climbing. Chris Harmstom from BD wrote a great thread article on this on rec.climbing way back. Can blue, green and black aliens hold trad falls? Yep. Can the smaller TCU's do the same? Yep. Can the nuts smaller than #4 hold? Yep. THe problem is the margin for error is so slim on these placements that they also are likely to not hold if not placed pretty much perfectly. And because they are so small determining if they are placed in that small but perfect margin is tough. Add in other variables like rock quality/wetness/dirt etc and your definitely betting on the wrong side.

Having these on your rack ISN't an invitation for disaster but you shouldn't rely on them unless necessary. THese smaller cams and tcu's were primarily designed for aiding. I personally carry to the green alien on my trad rack but rarely use it unless it's the only option.

The other thing is, depening on your experience placing gear should you even have these on a trad rack? I pride myself in placing good gear and I seem to have an eye for it but the routes I was leading really didn't require super small cams so I decided having them on the rack was just an invitation to use them in spots I otherwise wouldn't even need them.


dingus


Jan 11, 2006, 4:23 PM
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One additional point to Pico's post... I have personally found that TCU's are easier to place reliably in the tiny sizes when compared to any fcu except in very uniform cracks (which are rare where I climb). A small fcu in a crack only has to move a tiny fraction for one of the cams to perhaps pop into a pocket and disengage. That ability of a tcu to rotate on the center cam instead of walking can be huge (or a liability!).

It all depends of course.

DMT


tweek


Jan 11, 2006, 4:24 PM
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I would like to add that as a new trad leader you may want to leave them on the ground. They have their place and in free climbing but if you are just learning how to place gear the odds that you will need that piece is relativly small.

I tend to leave mine on the ground just because most times, on the grades that I routinly climb, there is usually a better placement, be it passive or larger cam near by, I just need to look for it. Many times if I had taken them off the ground I would have placed them and missed a much better more bomber placement.

There are climbs that require them and you no doubt will use them in the future.


esallen


Jan 11, 2006, 4:41 PM
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I fell 15-20 feet onto a 00 metolius TCU last year; it bent, but it held. Kept me off the deck. It was a good deep placement in a small constriction which may have added extra protection.

Eric


Partner tgreene


Jan 11, 2006, 4:56 PM
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To ease the shockload and performance of a micro, you may wish to consider using a screamer when placing it... :wink:


porcelainsunset


Jan 11, 2006, 5:45 PM
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Lets put it this way...

I'm sure that they are safer than the aliens that so many of us have been relying on. :lol:


bodyboarder


Jan 11, 2006, 6:18 PM
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Thanks a lot for the replies guys, very helpful.

Jason


maldaly


Jan 11, 2006, 7:05 PM
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We've done a lot of field testing of tiny cams in cracks. Here's what we found.

When the cams were placed well retracted in what appeared to be a parallel sided granite crack: Max failure load was around 500 lbf.

When placed in a constriction (like a stopper placement) at full retraction in granite: Cams would fail at or above rated strength.

When placed in any kind of flare or at half-expansion: Cams would pull at verylow and very random forces.

We'd pull the cams with a hydraulic chain puller hooked up to a dial dynomometer and could watch what happened very closely. Generally, when the cams begin to load tiny bits of rock would crumble at the contact points. Then the aluminum would deform slightly. The combination would cause the cam to either slip out or it would invert and break the cam. If the cam is too small for the placement and starts to drag through the rock all kinds of bad stuff can happen. See the "Whipper of the Year" thread on Supertopo for some good visuals. That was a case of placing a too-small cam (Ruby's takes Yellow TCU's perfectly. The first piece to fail was a Blue TCU then the Blue S4 Flex which is also smaller than a Yellow TCU.) in soft rock and having the placement fail. It's amazing that the guy didn't suffer more than bruised ribs. He said he's going to send me that cam but I still haven't seen it.

We get higher strengths in test fixtures because we're not dealing with rock that crumbles. BTW, wet IC sandstone is waaaay weak. Consider any cam placement A3.

Mal


Partner brent_e


Jan 11, 2006, 7:13 PM
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if you're worried about your purple and grey TCU's throw a screamer on them....but screamers don't solidify rock, keep the lobes glued in place, etc.


good luck

Brent


tslater


Jan 11, 2006, 8:19 PM
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I was belaying a friend up at Kernville Slab and he fell on a 5.10c finger crack on the purple Metolius tcu (in granite) and it did not hold. It blew like a mother and was all tweaked. Maybe it was/wasn't set well? (As well as can be set while hanging from a finger lock.) But the second cam held him (yellow Met). Redundancy saves lives.


Partner gunksgoer


Jan 11, 2006, 8:29 PM
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Yes, cams that small can hold falls, and are safe if used correctly in the right rock by people who have experience using them. You did however say that you are new to the trad game, in which case i wouldnt recommend relying on these guys. Wait till you have some more experience before you start playing with micro gear. Besides, if you need to plug in a 00 tcu on a 5.6, chances are your missing the better placement.


crackers


Jan 12, 2006, 8:25 AM
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I would second whoever said double them up if possible, and Mal and Gunksgoer's advice.

They're really damn small and you want to give them all the help you can. I've gone big on them, but i like to have something else near them. I've seen them fail too, and it's not fun.


Partner tgreene


Jan 12, 2006, 8:41 AM
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My feeling is that you would be well advised to spend time learning to place (and trust) larger gear before EVER venturing into the micros... You life, or that of your partners, may very well depend upon it.

I'm just now wading into the realm of micros, but it's because I'm venturing into 9's and 10's. Until this point, I've placed tiny stoppers instead of tiny cams, and actually took a nasty fall onto a BD #4 nut a couple of weeks ago, which held like a champ! In that particularly bizarre placement, I'm certain a micro-cam would have easily blown and dropped me to my death... As is, it was a 20 footer that was caught by a backup re-direct, leaving me hanging upside down 12-15 feet above a very rocky deck! :shock:

Additionally, the safest way to test specific gear, would be to establish a system that uses 2 ropes & belayers. 1 to belay you as a normal trad belay, and the other on a top rope with just enough slack to allow you to fully weight a placement, yet still cfreate a safe catch... You are however likely to get banged up in the process, unless this is is setup on an overhanging route, but you are at least assured of a good catch via the TR.


soulsurfer


Jan 12, 2006, 8:49 AM
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I have fallen on the Met O tcu twice and both times they have held me. Neither fall was longer than 7' and both were at J-tree. This means nothing really though. Next time it might not hold.

In general I never trust 1 piece to save my life. I may trust that 1 piece from taking a big fall but not my life. I don't use the #OO because I don't like the very small range it has. I use micronuts/RP's at that point and love them.


healyje


Jan 12, 2006, 8:50 AM
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Small pro of any kind requires careful consideration of potential placements, a good understanding of the quality and characteristics of rock you are dealing with, and an eye for minute details when making the actual placement. Small cams in particular are easy to place badly while sketching and when they end up under cammed, which is quite common under those circumstances, they blow real easily. If you aren't in a position to pay close attention to the details when placing small pro you probably shouldn't be doing it and/or should treat it as highly suspect for the duration. Utilizing small pro effectively is definitely a craft that takes time to develop.


jeremy11


Jan 13, 2006, 10:24 AM
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In reply to:
Besides, if you need to plug in a 00 tcu on a 5.6, chances are your missing the better placement.

thats right... well, most of the time. I found a 00 metolius fcu fixed on a 5.6 at the new river gorge. I clipped it of course, but there was enough other gear around. unfortunately my hour or more trying to booty it did not get it out :cry:

and yes, gunksgoer, rodgers rock is amazing! I climbed little finger this summer (and incidentally, placed my smallest trango flexcam as part of an anchor...)


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