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A send or not a send, that is my question.
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rocknpowda


Aug 15, 2002, 8:14 AM
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A send or not a send, that is my question.
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What are your opinions on this? I a climber climbs a whole route, with or without prior attempts, clips every draw, doesn't take and then grabs/holds the chains to clip the anchor. What kind of credit does this person deserve? Or should they lower off and try again?


xanx


Aug 15, 2002, 8:23 AM
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sounds like a pink point attempt if they make it to the top from the start without weighting any gear. if they put in their own gear, it is a redpoint. if it is their first try, it is a flash, beta, or onsight, depending on how much information they had about the route. and if no one else has done it before, it is an fa.


climbinganne


Aug 15, 2002, 8:35 AM
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pete...are you asking "if it is a clean send" if they use the chains as an aid to then clip the anchors?? i would consider that an aid climb.


rat-baby
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Aug 15, 2002, 8:36 AM
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In most cases I'd give it to 'em. I mean your at the anchors right? Your going to clip in there and hang any way. But there is always an exception to the rule. I've been on a few routes were the crux is going for the clip hold which is above the anchors. In that case you better grab that hold before chucking for the slings!

Any way, I've also been on a route in the dessert were the crux was throwing for the slings! Go figure.


jt512


Aug 15, 2002, 6:42 PM
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Quote:What are your opinions on this? I a climber climbs a whole route, with or without prior attempts, clips every draw, doesn't take and then grabs/holds the chains to clip the anchor. What kind of credit does this person deserve? Or should they lower off and try again?

They blew it. It's not a free ascent if they grabbed the chains to clip the anchors. There are many sport and gym routes where clipping the anchors IS the crux.

-Jay


danl


Aug 15, 2002, 7:10 PM
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yeah the route was sent and the rating is 5.XX_A0


crux_clipper


Aug 17, 2002, 4:59 AM
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I'd give it to him this time, it's the end of the climb, and it doesn't effect the overall grade if the crux is 5 meters below. If the crux were the finishing moves, then it wpuld be a different story.

Just tell him to try not to make a habit of it.


metoliusmunchkin


Aug 18, 2002, 7:42 AM
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Yes, it is still an ascent, yet not a redpoint. I agree with Jay, whoever does this, blew it.


cragmyre


Aug 18, 2002, 9:22 AM
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grabbing the chains, IMO, is acceptable when somebody heisted the lowering beens and you have to transfer the rope THROUGH the chains themselves or if there is a "sealed" (rings etc.) lower-off. If the lowering beens are still there, then make the clip before you grab em.


overlord


Aug 18, 2002, 10:01 AM
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i agree with cragmyre on that. if you have to untie from the rope in order to tie-in the anchor, you must not only grab the chains but CLIP yourself to them. however, if there is a biner on them that can be clipped (i have seen many sealed ones), you have to clip it before you grab the anchor.

CLIMB ON


nailzz


Aug 18, 2002, 11:00 AM
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I will third Jay's statement. Technically, this is not a free ascent. If it were me I wouldn't count it as a redpoint, pinkpoint, flash, onsight, or anything else except maybe a hangdog.

It sucks but I think that is the correct answer.


jt512


Aug 18, 2002, 2:14 PM
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Quote:...if you have to untie from the rope in order to tie-in the anchor, you must not only grab the chains but CLIP yourself to them.

Nonsense. You clip draws into the anchors and clip your rope into the draws, without grabbing the anchors. Now you've completed the route. Tell your partner to "take" and then do what you have to do to get the rope threaded thru the anchors to lower/rap.

-Jay


jhwnewengland


Aug 18, 2002, 3:49 PM
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Exactly, Jay. However, if it was some stupid thing where they grabbed the anchors just because they forgot, and weren't having any problems or anything I'd still give it to them just to be nice. If they were tired and lunged for the chains, no way. If it were me, I wouldn't count it at all, because I would feel personally that I hadn't given it my best.


fieldmouse


Aug 21, 2002, 6:21 PM
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a lot of routes in europe dont even have holds to clip the anchor from.


jds100


Aug 22, 2002, 12:45 PM
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This, again, goes to the matter of trying to have a vernacular for climbing, so that climbers can convey accurately what actually happened on a given attempt.

An "ascent" is just getting from bottom to top, using any means. "Ascent" is fairly useless as a term, other than when arguing whether or not moutaineers can claim an ascent if they did not actually summit the final snow mushroom or cornice. For rock climbing, claiming an ascent is virtually meaningless; it conveys no specific information as to style or method. Claiming an "ascent" is not usually a goal in rock climbing.

If somebody agrees to "go ahead and give it to them", even if the climber did not complete a redpoint (or whatever type of achievement is being claimed), then that person is perpetuating the confusion of terminology. I would argue, too, that it doesn't help the climber; it, in fact, deprives the climber of experiencing the eventual enjoyment of completing that route in a manner in which he could take full pride.

This relativistic use of climbing terms seems silly. A touchdown in American football counts for 6 points every time; not 5, not 7. Climbers don't have referees, except at competitions, so I think it's incumbant on us to have consistency and integrity in how we talk about what we and our partners have done.

[ This Message was edited by: jds100 on 2002-08-22 12:47 ]


climblouisiana


Aug 22, 2002, 1:24 PM
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You don't deserve "redpoint" credit. If you want a valid redpoint then you'll have to send the route cleanly. If you grabbed the chains you were likely to pumped or scared to clip them cleanly.

If the route description says that you need to lunge for the chains etc. then that climb has an aid move on it and should be listed as 5.xxAx


shawkshaw


Aug 23, 2002, 12:37 AM
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I know that whenever i have felt the need to grab the chains it has tanished the climb. I almost certainly don't consider it a complete climb and will more than likely have to return to try and redpoint it.
steve


davep


Aug 23, 2002, 1:29 AM
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Its all down to the local ethics, and if the route is graded for making the clip from holds. In britain it is common to grab the lower-off chain/slings/krab on sport routes, often due to the nature of the crags. On many routes clipping the belay off holds would be much harder and totally out of character with the rest of the route.

One story you hear of is of a top european climber (don't know the name) coming ot the peak district and onsighting a hard route (8b?) except he fell off trying to clip the belay since he didn't know that its was common practice to grab the belay first!


michaelmay513


Aug 23, 2002, 8:12 PM
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redpoint pinkpoint who gives a sheit. You climbed to the top w/o falling i say GRAB those chains.


camhead


Aug 23, 2002, 8:32 PM
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if there is even a question about if it was a send, then it probably wasn't.


dirtbag


Aug 28, 2002, 12:18 AM
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Pete,

Fact of the matter is, it doesn't mean a good god damn what any of these pounders, including myself, think about grabbing the chains at the top of the route. If I go to bed at night and wonder if I should or should not have grabbed those chains, hung on that bolt, or sticked clipped that first clip then the send is tainted. Maybe some people are happy with the attempt, whatever means they used, and don't need to go back to try again. So if your asking the question, "What credit do I deserve?" then you probably already know the answer. In the end only you can measure yourself against a route, to hell with what others think.


rocknpowda


Sep 5, 2002, 10:16 AM
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Thanks buddy.



rocknpowda


Sep 5, 2002, 10:18 AM
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I am pretty proud of myself anyway, I will just start saying I sent an .11c with an ao move at the top. Maybe one day I'll find a clipping hold at the top.


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