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pico23
Mar 1, 2006, 5:13 AM
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i had an interesting situation my goggles froze solid on the inside creating an unclearable film of frost.
so i was forced to go goggleless in probably -25F winchills coming head on.
the weekend before I was in confirmed -54F (-47C) windchills (90-100mph with minus 10F ambient temps) with no issues on the goggles or eyes.
have you ever had your eyeballs freeze? Very interesting. anyway, aside from not going into the mountains in less then summer weather how would one avoid this issue.
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lucander
Mar 1, 2006, 5:30 AM
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The guys on Shackleton didn't have goggles...
I avoid the problem by wearing a fleece balaclava and a "russian" style gore-tex shell/animal hair hat that's straight out of the Griswold's. I pull them close together so that just a small slit for my eyes is exposed and I have fun in the Presidential Range.
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tim_cro
Mar 1, 2006, 8:22 AM
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I was in ambient temps of about -25 with winds around a steady 20+ mph (wind chill of around -55 F) in early February in the Alaska Range and I didn't have any trouble with my goggles at all (my face mask is another matter). You said you were out in 100 mph winds? I didn't think most normal humans could even stand up comfortably in that, I've been outside in around 75 mph winds and I found that to be pretty challenging to remain upright and walking...
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tradman
Mar 1, 2006, 11:45 AM
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Some polar explorers have reported problems with the surface layers of their eyeballs freezing, but it has to be very, very cold before it's an issue - at least 50 or 60 below. At -90, scientists at the russian Vostok ice station reported that their eyeballs froze almost immediately.
Wind chill has almost no effect on your eyes because they're sheltered by your eyelids and sockets. Your eyeballs are very pressure sensitive; if they were exposed to the wind all the time you wouldn't be able to see! Also, remember that your eyeballs are right next to a massive blood-powered heater: your brain.
As for wind speed, I'm afraid the OP must be mistaken. 100mph winds are considerably beyond hurricane force (72mph) and would have destroyed everything in their path.
As a point of reference, in 1998 I was caught in sustained winds of 80mph in the scottish mountains, and in that speed it wasn't even possible to crawl on hands and knees - myself and my partner took 2 hours to cover 400 yards by sliding on our bellies before we could escape off the ridge.
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pico23
Mar 1, 2006, 3:56 PM
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In reply to: I was in ambient temps of about -25 with winds around a steady 20+ mph (wind chill of around -55 F) in early February in the Alaska Range and I didn't have any trouble with my goggles at all (my face mask is another matter). You said you were out in 100 mph winds? I didn't think most normal humans could even stand up comfortably in that, I've been outside in around 75 mph winds and I found that to be pretty challenging to remain upright and walking...
I don't get knocked around till 70mph but I am a big guy. 5'10" 190 mostly lower body sprinters legs.
I had to crouch during the gust as I walked into the headwind. and put a knee down . i could only walk when the winds died down to about 70mph which is quite common (i've been in 60+ 4 times this winter already and i haven't been out a lot).
no 100mph isn't fun. a little wind 40-60mph makes it feel like a real mountain, 100mph makes it feel like someone just doesn't like you. i was trying a presidential traverse a few years back and it was around -20F with similar 100mph winds. Only time in my life I was COLD.
in terms of proof that my eyeballs were frozen I will post a photo of it. the temps could have been colder sunday but no colder than 0 to -5F ambient.
it certainly wasn't colder than a week ago.
also when i say they froze, actually the tears froze on the edge of my eyes but the resulting blocks of ice encroached on my eye and eventually were in my actual eye. it was frozen so solid I had to melt it with my fingers to remove it.
and the ski patrol confirmed the winds. above treeline there are no trees so there is nothing to destroy. and it's not uncommon as posted above to experience hurricane force winds. 4 times this season I have experienced 60+mph winds (Washington, Mansfield, Algonquin 2x, and Sunday the gust had to be over 40mph and I never even made a summit and there was a wind advisory for the higher summits once again). also, if you want to experience these winds first hand hang out out Pinkham for a few days and then head up washington in on one of the 100 days a year it experiences hurricane force winds.
in terms of windchill over 40mph has a limited increase in windchill so if the reported winds are 100mph but you actually only experienced 80mph it's probably a good chance the windchill was within a few degrees.
btw, last week I also experienced my first facial frost bite. again photos to prove it. kinda nasty considering it was the only 1/4in section of face that was apparently exposed.
i think for now on i'm going to carry 2 goggles (or a full goggle set and one of those smaller hybrid sunglass goggles with foam shields). maybe my tears just have lower salinity than most peoples. oddly I was the only one with this problem Saturday, although several people did experience frost bite the week before.
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ecjohnson
Mar 1, 2006, 4:35 PM
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tradman, Mt. Washington regularly has some of the highest winds in the country. Hurricane force winds are a very common occurrence up there. Do a little research before you accuse someone of exaggerating. go to http://www.mountwashington.org
Yesterday's high wind speed was 120 mph. When I just checked it, the wind speed is 72 mph, with gusts up to 80 mph, and the windchill is -49. The world record for recorded wind surface speed is 231 mph recorded up there in April of 1934. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
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adnix
Mar 1, 2006, 6:50 PM
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In reply to: also when i say they froze, actually the tears froze on the edge of my eyes but the resulting blocks of ice encroached on my eye and eventually were in my actual eye. it was frozen so solid I had to melt it with my fingers to remove it. |
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skinner
Mar 1, 2006, 7:30 PM
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I have tried dozens of pairs of goggles, glacier glasses w/side shields, face shields, etc., etc.
Having climbed during the winter in the Canadian Rockies all of my life, I have had to deal with the frozen goggles for years.
Although I have had my eyes freeze shut on numerous occasions due to the lashes becoming iced together, I can honestly say that I don't believe I have ever *froze* my actual eyeballs. That just sounds like a really bad thing to have happen.
I have been able to minimize the fogged/iced goggles somewhat by shielding them from my breath and by avoiding my body heat being vented through my neck/collar. I customized a full balaclava style hard-hat liner with a removable face guard, so that the face guard can still be attached but while being sealed tight across my nose and cheeks, the bottom remains open so that it redirects my exhaled air away from my goggles. The other thing is controlling your body heat so that you are not perspiring through your neck/collar and allowing the warm air/moisture to heat and fog up your goggles.
Instead I do the collar up tight and control my body temp through armpit vents.
This has helped tremendously, but in extremely cold conditions or in driving snow, inevitably at some point I end up huddled over them trying to wipe them dry with a piece of my inner layers.
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tim_cro
Mar 1, 2006, 8:31 PM
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Tradman said:
"The beaufort scale - the wind speed scale - specifically notes that walking against the wind is "very difficult" at force 8 (39-46mph). You may think you've been out in 60mph+ winds, but actually you haven't. Perhaps you've felt a 70mph gust half a dozen times, but even that would suprise me."
I agree, the 75 mph gusts I felt were during an approaching hurricane in MA, and it usually put me right to the ground. I've skiid directly into steady 40 mph, and that get's horribly difficult after only a little while. I will also say that we know that Mt Washington has horrific weather at time, thankfully the times I've been there it's been quite calm. Anyways, I use a thick facemask/hat/hood and goggle combo throughout the Alaska Range in winter and it hasn't served me wrong so far (other than big ice build-up on my mask, unavoidable). Just experiment and see what works, my old Scott goggles didn't work well in the cold when I was working hard, but my oakleys are still going strong. Good luck...
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pico23
Mar 1, 2006, 10:54 PM
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In reply to: Ooo, scary. I wasn't accusing pico of exaggerating how bad conditions can get - as I said I'm well aware of how severe wind and cold can be - I was accusing him of exaggerating how much wind he was capable of walking in. In reply to: Put that in your pipe and smoke it. What are you, four years old? Learn to read and quit kissing pico's ass.
below
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pico23
Mar 1, 2006, 11:08 PM
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In reply to: Ooo, scary. I wasn't accusing pico of exaggerating how bad conditions can get - as I said I'm well aware of how severe wind and cold can be - I was accusing him of exaggerating how much wind he was capable of walking in. In reply to: Put that in your pipe and smoke it. What are you, four years old? Learn to read and quit kissing pico's ass.
wow, sorry for the post. and yes i have been in greater than hurricane force. and no you cannot walk in 100mph winds without being blown down. but i stated that already in my above post (with something to the effect of in 100mph winds you need to crouch down till the gust ends). i also noted that i did get frostbite (on my nose and goggle line).
learn to read my post and quit bragging about how great scotland is. i was trying the think if i'd pissed you off in a post for you to challenge my integrity like this and yet I cannot think of an instance. FOr what it's worth the wind gust in the low lands that day and night were blowing in the 40mph range. growing up on the coast i experienced many a tropical storm and few hurricanes and similar winds. my parents house never blew away and neither did we.
as I said the wind speeds were confirmed so I don't know what else to tell you. and i've been in confirmed wind speeds of greater than 70mph before (on washington where there is a permanent fully staffed and accurate observatory). the post wasn't to brag about how severe the weather was but to ask if anyone had similar problems in similar weather.
you've added nothing but the typical chest beating to the post. congrats. and thanks for adding absolutely nothing other than your theories on how much colder and more miserable scotland is than the rest of the world. i'll keep that in mind.
thanks again.
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pico23
Mar 1, 2006, 11:16 PM
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In reply to: Tradman said: "The beaufort scale - the wind speed scale - specifically notes that walking against the wind is "very difficult" at force 8 (39-46mph). You may think you've been out in 60mph+ winds, but actually you haven't. Perhaps you've felt a 70mph gust half a dozen times, but even that would suprise me." Scott goggles didn't work well in the cold when I was working hard, but my oakleys are still going strong. Good luck...
Actually, that was what I had that day. Probably like 8 years old. Perhaps time to retire them.
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pico23
Mar 2, 2006, 12:32 AM
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for those of you that are always right, and you know who you are, the AVERAGE windspeed on Mansfield is (11.2m/s) or 25mph. So on a nice day up on the summit you are experiencing what some have called extreme winds. So just assuming it was a particularly nasty day with burlingtons max gust at 37mph (16.5m/s) at an elevation of about 60m. Would it not be semi reasonable to just go on a limb and say, "you know, I'm always right about everything but perhaps, this one time we'll assume that winds were close to hurricane force 4000ft higher."
For reference as to why this would be the case and why your hypothesis on why i might be inclined to lie might not hold as much water as you think:
In reply to: points that lie above the average elevation within a 200×200 m grid cell will be somewhat windier than points that lie below it. A rule of thumb is that every 100 m increase in elevation will raise the mean speed by about 1 m/s.
so it's an 1150m difference. therefore we add 11.5m/s using the basic formular. that gives us over 28m/s and a minumum wind speed of 62mph. and this would be the lowest assumed speed based on the calculations. according to wind mappers these calcutions are usually only off by 3-6%. conditions could in fact have been worse, much worse in fact. and as i said, the difference in wind chill above 40mph is minimal lets so just say i was completely lying and in fact i only saw gust of perhaps 70mph. Who cares. it was still like -45F with the windchill. Bottom line is believe what you want but realize you aren't always right and your personal annectdotal evidence carries no more weight than mine.
wind can be very isolated. the straight line winds that occasionaly rip through Adirondack Park and level hundreds of acres of forest tend to NEVER hit the towns. Yet, it doesn't take my effort to see the destruction of these winds and wonder why they were localized. take a trip down the Oswegatchie at some point or the Siamese Ponds wilderness and wonder how winds can be so localized.
and the reason why the northeast tends to be so windy is because it stradles two massive weather fronts. the pressure gradients created make it much more windy than other similar places. when fronts shift the create wind.
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tim_cro
Mar 2, 2006, 12:38 AM
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yeah it could just be simple goggle design, just test out different methods and see what works best for you. There is nothing worse than being cold, miserable, and half blind in extreme weather...
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lehrski
Mar 2, 2006, 2:09 AM
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I work at Yellowstone in the winter and have been out at temperatures down to 40 below with winds up to 40 mph (wind chill -80 F). I haven't had my eyeballs freeze, but I have had my goggles ice up on the inside and have had my lashes freeze together. A coworker gave me a few tips this year that have more or less solved the problem. The anti-fog stuff you can buy for glasses helps keeps goggles from icing over. I also bought a neoprene face mask. They sell them for hunting and skiing. It seals pretty tight against the goggles and if you put it over the edge of the goggles instead of underneath, it keeps moisture from getting into the goggles. They're super warm but they ice over in a couple hours. Then you can take it off quick and knock the ice off and you're warm again.
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tradman
Mar 2, 2006, 9:11 AM
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In reply to: your personal annectdotal evidence carries no more weight than mine.
See, there's your problem.
The beaufort scale is not "anecdotal evidence", it's a scientific measure of the effects of wind at different speeds.
That's how we know you're exaggerating.
It's a bit like when you said you're a "big guy". All five foot ten of you? Whew. Five foot ten might make you a giant where you live, but where I live you'd be smaller than most men by a good couple of inches. Similarly, you probably think you are super strong and l33t for going out when it's a bit windy, but really you're just inexperienced and, according to scientific measures, making up comical numbers to fit your story.
:lol:
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heiko
Mar 2, 2006, 10:12 AM
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To the OP: I'm not doubting you got into a severe storm up there, but winds of 100mph are way beyond 12 beaufort, which means hurricane. Trees get uprooted at 10 beaufort!
I've experienced 9 beaufort winds (at the sea, winds measured with a wind-meter at eye level), and I had the sensation you described about being able to walk only when the gusts weakened a little. 100mph winds would probably lift you off the ground even if you were lying flat.
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adnix
Mar 2, 2006, 1:57 PM
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In reply to: 100mph winds would probably lift you off the ground even if you were lying flat. |
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sim
Mar 3, 2006, 1:03 PM
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Pico,
Find a way to protect your eyes. It may take experimentation with some of the systems suggested.
After many years XC ski racing & training I have real problems with my eyes in the cold & wind. I can't walk into the office on a breezy cold day without tears pouring out of my eyes. I think the sensitivity is from exposure without glasses/goggles.
Sim
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big_red
Mar 22, 2006, 9:24 AM
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The only advice I can give for the goggles:
1. Your goggles won't fog up or freeze if you're moving unless you are wearing something over your face that redirects your breath upwards into them. If it's windy, that should be even less of a problem. Rethink whatever is on your face, you don't want to be exhaling through windstopper.
2. When you're resting NEVER slide your goggles up onto your forehead unless the weather is warm and nice. The vapor from your head will go inside the lenses then freeze into that lovely film of ice, and that won't come off until you warm and dry the goggles (especially if it's got multiple lenses and the moisture gets between them)
But this is just from my background here in AK...the snow is pretty dry here so it's just the cold you normally have to worry about.
Well that's my $.02 hope it helps some
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pico23
Apr 1, 2006, 6:02 AM
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In reply to: The only advice I can give for the goggles: 1. Your goggles won't fog up or freeze if you're moving unless you are wearing something over your face that redirects your breath upwards into them. If it's windy, that should be even less of a problem. Rethink whatever is on your face, you don't want to be exhaling through windstopper. 2. When you're resting NEVER slide your goggles up onto your forehead unless the weather is warm and nice. The vapor from your head will go inside the lenses then freeze into that lovely film of ice, and that won't come off until you warm and dry the goggles (especially if it's got multiple lenses and the moisture gets between them) But this is just from my background here in AK...the snow is pretty dry here so it's just the cold you normally have to worry about. Well that's my $.02 hope it helps some
Although i do have the old smith goggles they don't freeze up often while wearing them. But #2 hit the problem on the head for the frozen eyes trip.
I had them on my head before treeline so i wouldn't have to take my pack off and they were frozen solid.
won't do that again if i want to be able to see.
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montaniero
Apr 8, 2006, 2:53 AM
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In reply to: To the OP: I'm not doubting you got into a severe storm up there, but winds of 100mph are way beyond 12 beaufort, which means hurricane. Trees get uprooted at 10 beaufort!
DITTO. I'm originally from Patagonia, also a sailor and have being exposed to severe wind conditions in my lifetime. There is NO WAY you could have been writing this post if you were exposed to 100 mph winds, nonetheless in the middle of a snow blizzard high up in a mountain!!! That's 160 km/h winds. You would have looked like the fliying cow in Twister, the movie!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fujita_scale
Pico: Quit bragging about how macho you are in 10,000 zillions mph winds, stop bashing Scotland (BTW, love Lagavulin) and buy some decent Oakleys, tough guy. :lol:
BTW: Scottish climbers are tougher than American climbers, if not try climbing with a kilt instead of your Mammut Schoeller nanofabric softshell sissy pants...
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