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local gym teaching poor belaying?
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hugepedro


Mar 2, 2006, 4:55 PM
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The hands up method is just blantently wrong. When we talk about belaying, we often refer to our "brake hand." I'm sure everyone will agree that when we say break hand we mean just that, one brake hand and not two. I am willing to bet that with two fingers nearly anyone can arrest even the harshest fall if they were to belay with the hands down method. I would like to hear anyone who is a fan of the hands up method declare with confidence that they could do the same hands up.

No, your post is what's blatantly wrong. Your assertion is totally ridiculous. There is nothing wrong with either hands up or hands down. If one can't teach a complete noob to belay competently using either method, then one is a poor teacher.

You hold the ropes in a parallel position while you are paying out or taking up slack, and when your climber isn't moving you keep your brake hand in a "neutral" position toward the side, ready to lock down in case of a fall, or ready to move back to parallel if your climber starts moving. It's easy to do, and easy to teach.


kubi


Mar 2, 2006, 5:17 PM
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this thread is a complete clusterfuck. I assume everyone that advocates using the method that the OP's girlfriend was taught is confusing it with the "palm up" method vs. the "palm down" method.

If you are in favor of belaying with the rope strands parallel using a standard belay device...why? I can see no reason to ever belay like this, and I would not climb with anyone who wanted to belay like that.


hugepedro


Mar 2, 2006, 6:40 PM
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If you are in favor of belaying with the rope strands parallel using a standard belay device...why? I can see no reason to ever belay like this, and I would not climb with anyone who wanted to belay like that.

As I said in the post just before yours, you have the ropes parallel while you're paying out rope or taking up slack. You position your brake hand in a "neutral" position to the side when the climber isn't moving. Whether you hold the rope palm up or palm down makes no difference whatsoever.


curtis_g


Mar 2, 2006, 7:50 PM
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If you are in favor of belaying with the rope strands parallel using a standard belay device...why? I can see no reason to ever belay like this, and I would not climb with anyone who wanted to belay like that.

As I said in the post just before yours, you have the ropes parallel while you're paying out rope or taking up slack. You position your brake hand in a "neutral" position to the side when the climber isn't moving. Whether you hold the rope palm up or palm down makes no difference whatsoever.

huge, do you even read what you quote?
WE ALL KNOW THAT PAMLS UP/DOWN IS NOT BEING DEBATED HERE!!!

but why ON EARTH would you prefer to have your belayer hold the ropes parallel AT ANY TIME DURING THE BELAY if it would be just as easy and twice as safe to pull in slack off to the side closer to a locked-off position?


hugepedro


Mar 3, 2006, 6:51 AM
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Oh you're right, I thought part of this discussion was also about palm up vs. down. My bad.

Sure, you can haul in slack while holding the rope out toward the side, but you can't pay out rope as easily in that position, so you will end up short roping a climber who is on lead, and that is a pain in the butt.

From a safety perspective it makes no difference. No matter where your hand position is, if you can't lock off a fall you are an incompetent belayer.

The only problem in the original post is that his girlfriend was not paying attention, she was caught by surprise and didn't lock off the rope before the climber's weight came on it. She was not a competent belayer. Perhaps she is now, unless her boyfriend confused her by blaming it on the technique the gym taught thus preventing her from learning a lesson. There is nothing wrong with the technique the gym taught.


kubi


Mar 3, 2006, 7:13 AM
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Oh you're right, I thought part of this discussion was also about palm up vs. down. My bad.

You weren't the only one that thought that, I just wanted to get this discussion back on track.

In reply to:
Sure, you can haul in slack while holding the rope out toward the side, but you can't pay out rope as easily in that position, so you will end up short roping a climber who is on lead, and that is a pain in the butt.

This is how I pay out slack.

1) reach down to belay device with guide hand and grab rope
2) pull rope out from belay device while simultaneously bringing brake hand in towards belay device.

I assumed this is how everyone does it. The beauty is that it makes no difference where your brake hand is, locked-off down by your thigh or up by your face, it will still feed out slack just as fast. Why bring your hand out of the locked off position needlessly?

In reply to:
From a safety perspective it makes no difference. No matter where your hand position is, if you can't lock off a fall you are an incompetent belayer.

I agree somewhat, in that you should be able to quickly lock off the belay no matter what position your hand is in, however, there are plenty of situations (especially in top-roping) where the climber can fall onto the rope before you realize they are falling.

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There is nothing wrong with the technique the gym taught.

Have you read these posts? Belaying with parallel ropes is terrible technique and should never be used, let alone taught.


bighigaz


Mar 3, 2006, 7:36 AM
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This forum is only 3 pages long, so CLEARLY some clarification is needed. :roll:
It won't be a valuable forum until it reaches AT LEAST 28!

Anyway, The original poster is no idiot, there is at least SOME danger to having the ropes PARALLEL. This, first, needs clarification: PARALLEL does not mean the brake hand is pointing away from the climber. It means the ropes are PARALLEL, or NEXT TO EACH OTHER. The danger I see hear, especially with a NEW BELAYER, is the potential to confuse the brake side of the rope. I've seen it happen many times when new belayers want to do a "temporary switch" and for a moment there IS NO BRAKE... or worse, they FORGET which side is the brake!

Remedy: Simply emphasize a "slide" up the brake side, NEVER removing your hand from the rope. Everyone finds a way that's easiest for them, and works. Point is, don't take your hand of the brake. (Duh.)

R&I seems to have tried to address the subject, but did it very poorly. The pictures sucked, and never really showed a "ropes parallel" scenario! So the entire point of their article was lost.

In my opinion, the belay technique in question is perfectly safe as long as the belayer is always ready with the brake hand, and the ropes are never actually laid side-by-side. (It isn't necessary!) Any other brake-hand up configuration would be okay for working the slack in the rope as long the belayer is aware to NEVER take his hand of the brake! Simple.


kubi


Mar 3, 2006, 8:14 AM
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R&I seems to have tried to address the subject, but did it very poorly. The pictures sucked, and never really showed a "ropes parallel" scenario! So the entire point of their article was lost.

you are confusing the issue again. R&I addressed palm-up vs. palm-down, which is NOT what this discussion is about

In reply to:
In my opinion, the belay technique in question is perfectly safe as long as the belayer is always ready with the brake hand, and the ropes are never actually laid side-by-side. (It isn't necessary!) Any other brake-hand up configuration would be okay for working the slack in the rope as long the belayer is aware to NEVER take his hand of the brake! Simple.

Once again, ropes parallel is undoubtably more dangerous than holding the rope in a locked-off position, and serves no purpose whatsoever. Why on earth would you belay like this? Why be a dangerous belayer for no reason? It's not safe, it's not easier, it should never be done.


jt512


Mar 3, 2006, 10:59 AM
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If you teach people that the ropes should never be parallel then you are teaching inferior belay technique. After the 3rd time you short-roped me I would ask to be lowered so I could smack you upside the head with a #2 Camalot.

Agreed, except that I'd whack the belayer with a stickclip, not a Camalot.

Jay


kubi


Mar 3, 2006, 11:13 AM
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If you teach people that the ropes should never be parallel then you are teaching inferior belay technique. After the 3rd time you short-roped me I would ask to be lowered so I could smack you upside the head with a #2 Camalot.

Agreed, except that I'd whack the belayer with a stickclip, not a Camalot.

Jay

Hay Jay,

How does holding the ropes parallel decrease the likelihood of short-roping a leader? Unless you are belaying in some way I've never seen before, it doesn't matter where your brake hand is, so it might as well be down.


jt512


Mar 3, 2006, 12:36 PM
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If you teach people that the ropes should never be parallel then you are teaching inferior belay technique. After the 3rd time you short-roped me I would ask to be lowered so I could smack you upside the head with a #2 Camalot.

Agreed, except that I'd whack the belayer with a stickclip, not a Camalot.

Jay

Hay Jay,

How does holding the ropes parallel decrease the likelihood of short-roping a leader? Unless you are belaying in some way I've never seen before, it doesn't matter where your brake hand is, so it might as well be down.

You don't "hold" the ropes in parallel. You keep the ropes 45- to 90-degrees by default. If the belayer falls you lock off, a simple fact that most of the proponents of the locked-off-by-default method seem to overlook. To take in slack, you use the pinch-and-slide method depicted on the first page of this thread. After taking in the requisite amount of slack, you go back to the 45- to 90-degree default position. As I discussed in great length and repitition in the other, linked-to thread, the advantage of this postition over a locked-off position, is that you can more quickly respond to the needs of your partner, since you don't have to raise your brake hand first.

To address your question of short-roping, let's look at your previous post:
In reply to:
This is how I pay out slack.

1) reach down to belay device with guide hand and grab rope
2) pull rope out from belay device while simultaneously bringing brake hand in towards belay device.

So far, so good, but now what do you if you your partner needs two more full arm lengths of slack in about a half-second to make a high, overhead clip from a dicey clipping hold? Using your method you slide your guide hand down the rope toward the belay device while simultaneously sliding your brake hand down the rope. Then you pull out slack according to the procedure you describe. Then you repeat the whole procedure to pull out the third arm-length of slack.

Like, Hugepedro, my experience with belayers who try to use this technique is that they repeatedly short-rope me when I attempt to make long, fast clips.

Here is a faster way to pay out large amounts of slack: Belay palms-up with the ropes held at 45- to 90-degrees. To pay out slack, bring the brake hand into the parallel position while yarding out the first armful of slack. Do not move the brake hand down to the belay device; there is no reason to do so. Instead, simply loosen the grip with your brake hand enough to allow the rope to slide through it. You don't let go of the rope with the brake hand, and you don't open your fingers completely. Just loosen the grip enough to allow the rope to slide through, just as you do using your method, when you slide the brake hand down the rope. Now, to yard out multiple arm-lengths of rope, just keep your brake hand in front of you with the loosened grip -- don't move it all. Don't slide your guide hand down the rope -- this is too slow -- just let go of the rope completely after yarding out the first armful of slack, and then grab the rope near the belay device and yard out the next armful. Repeat as necessary, and then go back to the 45- to 90-degree default position.

The method is faster for two reasons: first, it eliminates sliding the hands down the rope, and second, the rope can be pulled through the belay device faster with the ropes parallel (less friction, or coefficient of friction, or whatever).

If at any time during the procedure your partner falls, you can simply lock off and give a static catch, or partially lock off to give a dynamic catch. The rope will not be ripped through your hands, as climbers who are not experienced with this technique mistakenly assume.

This is a tried-and-true method of belaying, which has been taught in North America for decades. It is more difficult to learn and teach than the locked-off-default method, but the faster and more flexible belay it affords makes it worth the extra effort.

Jay


hugepedro


Mar 3, 2006, 1:27 PM
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I was wondering when you would get here, Jay. I tried to smack 'em down in your absence, but apparently I'm not as good at smack downs as you.


jt512


Mar 3, 2006, 2:00 PM
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I was wondering when you would get here, Jay. I tried to smack 'em down in your absence, but apparently I'm not as good at smack downs as you.

I'm telling you: it's the Camalot. The clipstick is a far more potent weapon.

Jay


hugepedro


Mar 3, 2006, 2:05 PM
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:lol: Longer reach, I suppose.


kubi


Mar 3, 2006, 2:06 PM
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You don't "hold" the ropes in parallel. You keep the ropes 45- to 90-degrees by default.

if you have the rope at 45-90 degrees by default then you aren't belaying with the ropes parallel like the girl in the OP was told to do.

After reading your post, I belay almost the exact same way as you.


luke_flowers


Mar 3, 2006, 3:06 PM
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However it is not surface area and angle of contact that make the difference, it is purely friction

Hate to pick such a minor point in a post so clearly aimed at backing up my oppinion (thanks for that) but surface area increases friction, and the more obtuse the angle between the belay rope and live rope the more pressure exerted on the frictional surfaces, which also further increases the friction. I was just trying to skip a step since I 'assumed' that everyone would know that friction was what made a friction braking device work.

Also for all those who honestly believe that a new belayer won't be distracted while belaying, and that they will never ever be distracted at the same time that the climber takes a fall, and with a ropes parallel technique they'll be able to move to the braking position in time to catch a fall...good luck with your next game of russian roulette, because the odds are counting down.

I simply believe in the concept of risk management, and reducing the need to react by defaulting back to a braked position when the rope doesn't need to be moving makes more sense to me.

Climb safe all...


hugepedro


Mar 3, 2006, 4:03 PM
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Also for all those who honestly believe that a new belayer won't be distracted while belaying, and that they will never ever be distracted at the same time that the climber takes a fall, and with a ropes parallel technique they'll be able to move to the braking position in time to catch a fall...good luck with your next game of russian roulette, because the odds are counting down.

That's why you have an experienced climber watch over them until they are experienced enough, or if that's not possible you recognize the risk and you climb as though you are free soloing, or you have them use a gri-gri.

If a belayer can't move their hand into the breaking position then they aren't a safe belayer no matter what technique you teach them. Until they are competent enough to arrest a fall every time, you have to use the above mitigating approaches if you don't want to be dropped.


jt512


Mar 3, 2006, 4:08 PM
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You don't "hold" the ropes in parallel. You keep the ropes 45- to 90-degrees by default.

if you have the rope at 45-90 degrees by default then you aren't belaying with the ropes parallel like the girl in the OP was told to do.

I doubt that she was taught to keep the ropes parallel in front of her all the time. Sounds like a mis-communication to me.

Jay


ridgeclimber


Mar 3, 2006, 4:16 PM
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I agree, you are absolutely right. Call me crazy, but even when I'm belaying with a munter hitch I keep my hand down, not parallel. This kinks the rope, but I don't even want to allow myself to belay at all in that position. As I figure, belaying is the foundation of safe climbing, why mess with it? If I were in your situation, I would consider leaving the gym.


clayman


Mar 3, 2006, 4:17 PM
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There is no excuse for not being able to lock off the rope before the leader's weight comes onto it.

uh....what if you can't see the leader?


socaldudefromquebec


Mar 3, 2006, 4:51 PM
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gym setting + top rope + beginner belayer + break hand down by default = safer
Reason: much easier to learn that when there is a fall... stay put in your default position (or during the second you were taking slack, then return quickly to default position).

lead climber + experienced belayer +break hand down = maybe slower pay out + safe enough

If the belayer is paying attention (as a lead belayer should be trained to do) they can anticipate the need for pay out and give plenty for a smooth clip. But I agree that the way (I think it was Jay) described giving slack seem faster.

However, I will not let a new belayer belay me if they've just learned (as in: have not put in at least several hours of belaying) the hands up method. Because in these early stages, even though they may look competent, they have not learned the reflex to lower their brake end as soon as there is tension in the rope (we don't always see the climber). And a small hesitation is enough for the climber to gain enough speed that the belayer may have a hard time breaking.

I think it's best to teach the hands down method to a new belayer. When they've mastered that and are ready to start lead climbing, then teach them how they can increase their efficiency and speed at lead belaying. If at the same time they are learning to lead climb, they can appreciate the nuance of lead belay.

BTW, the hands up method is what's taught in my local gym where one of the owner has apparently followed an AMGA course and that's the method they were advocating. In the gym I learned (in Montreal) they though me that it's safest to always keep my break hand below the belay device (even in paying out for a leader). Is it slower? Probably. Is it safer? I certainly think so. Is the hand up method safe enough in experienced hands? Probably. Do I let experience belayer belay me with both hand up? Sure, but I will always view this method as inherently less safe.

All this is of course only my opinion... it's worth what it's worth.


hugepedro


Mar 3, 2006, 5:31 PM
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There is no excuse for not being able to lock off the rope before the leader's weight comes onto it.

uh....what if you can't see the leader?

Um, yeah, I didn't think that needed to be said. Even if you can't see them, usually you will hear them, and/or slack rope will start coming down rapidly.


kydd76


Mar 3, 2006, 6:07 PM
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if you are not paying, any attention you will drop the climber, burn you hands, or *uck up in some way. there it has been said. i don't care if you use hands up are down. use your mind and pay attention when belaying.


kubi


Mar 3, 2006, 8:18 PM
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You don't "hold" the ropes in parallel. You keep the ropes 45- to 90-degrees by default.

if you have the rope at 45-90 degrees by default then you aren't belaying with the ropes parallel like the girl in the OP was told to do.

I doubt that she was taught to keep the ropes parallel in front of her all the time. Sounds like a mis-communication to me.

Jay

I doubted it too, but after reading all the posts on this thread in favor of it, i'm starting to belive.


lambone


Mar 5, 2006, 10:35 AM
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posted on page 2:

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I left the gym, and 4 months later heard they had a belayer drop a climber close to 40' feet at a b-day party there....after passing their 20min belay class. I decided not to climb there anymore.

You'd be supprised how many gyms are sketchy as hell...which is terrible because these days, it's where 75% of climbers get their first exposure/ instruction in climbing.

I think the fundememntal problem with alot of climbing instruction, be it at a sketchy gym or through a sketchy friend, has nothing to do with the "hands-up vs hands down" method...it is the 20 minute belay class.

It takes longet then that to teach belaying properly, and to have it sink in. Our classes are at least 1.5 hours, or 2hrs if it's multiple students. I feel that is the minimum.

Our competing gym teaches the 20min belay class with a gri-gri....and we see lots of their folks coming over to our gym with sketchy belay techniques all the time.

I also don't think any gym should enforce the use of one method over another. People are best at the method they know and use most often, it's my opinion that both methods are safe if done properly so let people use what they are comfortable with rather then forcing them to change on the spot and use a method theydon't know and have no practice with.

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