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Camp-5 official way to use ATC-XP
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omegaprime


Mar 7, 2006, 5:52 PM
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Camp-5 official way to use ATC-XP  (North_America: United_States: Utah: St__George: Crawdad_Canyon: Cartoon_Crag)
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I was in the Camp 5 gym the other day, belaying with my ATC-XP in standard mode, minding my own business. Then I was approached by one of the staff which then proceeded to tell me that I am belaying incorrectly, I should be using the extra friction mode. I thought, WTF? :roll:

I normally use the extra friction mode only when I climb outdoors, as with dynamic ropes I will need the extra grip. When I climb in gyms, I use the standard mode as the rope is stiffer, and I can have a smoother belay for TR.

I proceeded to explain to the staff that I know perfectly well that you can use both modes, it was designed that way. He then proceeded to inform me that they would prefer it if I were to use the extra friction mode more, due to the fact that n00bs could see me using it and follow the "bad habit". I thought again, WTF? Not really in the mood to argue, I just said okay, and used the extra friction mode. Its only a minor inconvenience for me after all.

My question is this: Why should the gym tell or teach the n00bs this? Any competent person can read the manual on the packaging and see that both ways are equally effective. Then they can choose their own preference when they belay. Explaining this to them is better than throwing BS that the other way is wrong.

Thoughts? Perhaps blocx could comment on this issue.


vegastradguy


Mar 7, 2006, 7:12 PM
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Re: Camp-5 official way to use ATC-XP [In reply to]
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another confused gym rat- i suspect the ATC-XP has been around longer than he's been climbing with a statement like that coming out of his mouth.

i would have told him off- belaying with the ATC-XP in standard mode is exactly the same as belaying with a regular ATC, something that folks have been doing for a long time with no problems....I fail to see how thats a 'bad habit'.


omegaprime


Mar 7, 2006, 7:26 PM
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Actually come to think about it, the ATC-XP has been around a tad longer than I have been climbing. :lol:


climbingaggie03


Mar 7, 2006, 7:49 PM
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I only have a regular ATC, does that mean I have bad habits by default?


bloodyhands


Mar 7, 2006, 7:53 PM
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Hahaha! I got corrected at my home town gym too. WTF?


so


Mar 7, 2006, 8:20 PM
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In theory they're only letting people belay with proper technique right? So it should be perfectly safe for the noobs to emulate your 'bad habit.'


omegaprime


Mar 7, 2006, 8:35 PM
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In reply to:
In theory they're only letting people belay with proper technique right? So it should be perfectly safe for the noobs to emulate your 'bad habit.'

Interesting question, I'm not sure of the answer. In fact Camp 5 gym don't have belay test that I know off. I basically just fill in a form, saying I know how to belay, lead climb, etc.. and then I'm off to climb! :wink:


so


Mar 7, 2006, 8:40 PM
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That's reassuring, er...


epicsaga


Mar 7, 2006, 9:07 PM
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This is why I hate gyms-they all have their own different ways they think are correct. Rockreation forbids the use of a gri gri. They use the excuse "our insurance doesnt allow it". My response "find different insurance".
Survey 50 gyms and you'll find 50 different policies.
Others like LA rock gym/ beach city rocks mandate using a gri gri. Hangar 18 in Upland has kids for staff that yell at patrons belaying correctly.
Some don't allow sitting down while belaying-nothing unsafe about that.
A hip belay is safe if done correctly. Best bet with any gym is talk to the manager and owner. If they persist in being unreasonable, take youre biz elsewhere and tell them why. Don't tolerate bad attitude from gym staff.


vegastradguy


Mar 7, 2006, 9:25 PM
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In reply to:
Rockreation forbids the use of a gri gri. They use the excuse "our insurance doesnt allow it". My response "find different insurance".

funny, i always thought that the use of gri-gri's in gyms brought the premiums down on their insurance considerably.....


Partner holdplease2


Mar 7, 2006, 9:51 PM
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Man, I was in the gym in Fresno, where there is no belay check and next to no supervision.

Some dude takes his friend to the gym to climb, and teaches him to toprope belay. The guy does OK, so he teaches him how to lead belay 15 mins later...belayer looks kinda sketchy, but is picking it up.

I offer a backup, but the leader says its not necessary.

The dude proceeds to lead climb to the top of the wall, in good fashion, clipping on lead and coaching the belayer along the way.

HE THEN PROCEEDS TO CLIP A SINGLE SLING TO THE PIPE AT THE TOP OF THE WALL, UNTIE FROM THE ROPE, AND HANG THERE LOOKING CONFUSED!!!

He then realizes that he needs to tie back into the rope and trys to explain to the belayer how to lower him!

UNBELIEVABLE.

The gym supervisor never even noticed. We were the only 3 people in the gym at the time.

-Kate.


kricir


Mar 7, 2006, 10:11 PM
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wow, Im suddenly very thankful for the laid back staff at my gym. There are 2 gyms in Fort Collins, CO. One is “bigger” taller, and less crowded. It is also part of a “normal” gym and ran by complete ass holes. I’ll take the more crowded, smaller gym ran by climbers any day. I sympathize with you out there who have the choice of not climbing, or paying for the chance to climbing under the supervision of ass faces.


taraus_de_bull


Mar 7, 2006, 10:39 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Rockreation forbids the use of a gri gri. They use the excuse "our insurance doesnt allow it". My response "find different insurance".

funny, i always thought that the use of gri-gri's in gyms brought the premiums down on their insurance considerably.....

Funny i've heard some say this, then i've heard some say the opposite. go figure. i think insurance companies just don't normally have any real idea and are make policies that "seem" right.


nevenneve


Mar 7, 2006, 10:51 PM
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I'm pretty sure that the literature that came with the device explicitly warns against dependency on the high friction mode due to the fact that it is mainly for rapping and belaying a heavier partner. I think their lawyers are well versed in the governing laws and so on of being ultimately responsible for the device and instruction on its use.


vegastradguy


Mar 7, 2006, 11:19 PM
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In reply to:
I'm pretty sure that the literature that came with the device explicitly warns against dependency on the high friction mode due to the fact that it is mainly for rapping and belaying a heavier partner. I think their lawyers are well versed in the governing laws and so on of being ultimately responsible for the device and instruction on its use.

actually, it doesnt. i just read through it, and although it does say that the high friction mode is for rappelling, belaying with a heavier partner, and for use on skinny lines, it says nothing about not using it in other situations.

the only thing it does say about the high friction mode is that it can increase the forces in the system (likely because it is more static than a regular tube belay....but still nowhere near as static as a grigri...)- but this would mean nothing in a gym setting.....


capuletts


Mar 8, 2006, 12:42 AM
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Two ways on looking at the situation.

1. on camp 5 point of view they are trying to minimize injury and accident, which is very crucial. i believe any establishment that has to do with extreme sports will make minimizing injury by taking all possible precaution as their main priority. Careless accident are very bad for making money.......=)

2. i have never climbed in camp 5, once in summit gym and that is the first and the last time. the whole part bout climbing is about being outdoor alone with your partner and taking it on and see how far you can go. No rules, no such thing is the right way, just do it and if you dont do it safely you die. People with common sense will figure the "safe" way to do it.

you only climb in gym when weather doesnt permit which is quite infrequent in a tropical country KL malaysia and you dont have to pay money for it!

My point it is, what are you doing in the gym in the first place?


omegaprime


Mar 8, 2006, 1:10 AM
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In reply to:
........
you only climb in gym when weather doesn't permit which is quite infrequent in a tropical country KL Malaysia and you dont have to pay money for it!

My point it is, what are you doing in the gym in the first place?

What was I doing in the gym? Training for my climb outside of course, after work at night. If you're working 5 day week, only time you can climb outdoors is on the weekends. So to get a fix or to train, I go to the gym. I think a lot of people are doing the same thing. :D

On the gym trying to cover their back, that is understandable. But telling people a perfectly good way of using an ATC-XP as bad is something else. I don't mind it if they enforce the rule that you must use the extra friction all the time, but I would mind if a staff tells me that using the standard mode is the wrong way.


blocx


Mar 9, 2006, 9:05 PM
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Omegaprime

Firstly, let it be known, so there are no doubts as to our objectivity on this issue. BLOCX and Camp5 are essentially managed by the same people. Therefore requesting the comment of BLOCX is essentially requesting the comment of Camp5. I thought it would be prudent to point this out.

It would appear that your primary issue in posting this tread is not to deny the benefits of the additional friction the atcXP offers, but rather to make a public denouncing of the ‘apparent’ limitations of a Camp5 marshal.

My first response to you is very plainly: if you were sincerely disgruntled about this incident, why did you not bring it to the attention of management? Had you done so, we would have been in a position to reprimand the Marshal responsible and thus ultimately improve the relation between staff and customer. Posting a one-sided view of an incident on a public forum where it gets battered around by people who, without acknowledging the full story, are begged to toss in their two cents is in my mind a fruitless waste of energy as seldom will such a discourse result in positive action.

Having said that, I appreciate that you requested our comment and therefore am happy to oblige.

Yes, you are right, the AtcXP does offer 2 friction modes for belay/rappelling. Referred to as HFM (high friction mode) and RFM (reduced friction mode) the pros and cons of either is common sense. Whilst the RFM generates less friction making faster rappel possible and reducing rope wear, HFM obviously provides greater control by way of increased friction. Based on these comparisons we can agree that on any route that has solid protection adopting the HFM mode would increase the margin of safety. In essence this is why we strongly RECOMMEND that belayers use the HFM mode, with the exception perhaps of a marked positive weight displacement between belayer and climber i.e. a father belaying his kids.

Whilst the intentions of the Marshal were correct, I can agree that the execution was misguided. Ultimately the Marshall’s at Camp5 are given the responsibility of looking out for ALL climbers’ safety, it is certainly not an easy task, and one that by nature can be excpected to result in occasional misunderstanding. I am indeed grateful that you could acknowledge the “good” intentions and were willing to comply with the Marshal’s request. I would like to say I share your optimism with regard to “any competent person can read[ing] the manual on the packaging”. But it is my experience that this just simple is not the case. A perfect example would be the popularity of climbers using the figure8 belay device wrongly (passing the bight of the rope only through the large hole and then clipped into the carabiner) check any instruction manual and I think you will have a hard time finding a manufacturer that endorses such a technique. Regardless I do not use this claim to support the error made by our Marshal, but simple to highlight to you that we frequently do find climbers misusing the AtcXP among other devices.

Also in regarding to your comment:

“I normally use the extra friction mode only when I climb outdoors, as with dynamic ropes I will need the extra grip. When I climb in gyms, I use the standard mode as the rope is stiffer, and I can have a smoother belay for TR.”

Perhaps you should be aware that, as should always be the case with all forms of climbing (indoor, outdoor, top-roped or lead), we ONLY use dynamic rope. Also our ropes are kept in very good order so I do not feel you should have any complications using the Atc in any mode on ropes. Yes, we do allow you to use the Atc in RFM mode if this is your preference. Though I must say, having used the XP now for over 2 years, I have personally never encountered a justifiable reason do so, perhaps because I don’t have kids. In my mind it would be compared to disconnecting the brake pedal on you car and driving using your hand-brake – yep its still works by why bother over stressing yourself. Regardless, the position Camp5 takes is always – if the manufacturer says it’s ok, then we say it’s ok ….ok

No hard feelings and I hope in future, please, do us both a favor, bring your complaints to the front desk so we can both insure that Camp5, and the people who work here, understand our members.

Jeremy


omegaprime


Mar 9, 2006, 11:21 PM
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Hi Jeremy,

In reply to:
Firstly, let it be known, so there are no doubts as to our objectivity on this issue. BLOCX and Camp5 are essentially managed by the same people. Therefore requesting the comment of BLOCX is essentially requesting the comment of Camp5. I thought it would be prudent to point this out.

I am well aware of that fact, which is why I indicated that perhaps blocx should reply.

In reply to:
My first response to you is very plainly: if you were sincerely disgruntled about this incident, why did you not bring it to the attention of management? Had you done so, we would have been in a position to reprimand the Marshal responsible and thus ultimately improve the relation between staff and customer. Posting a one-sided view of an incident on a public forum where it gets battered around by people who, without acknowledging the full story, are begged to toss in their two cents is in my mind a fruitless waste of energy as seldom will such a discourse result in positive action.

Didn't realize my post projected the image that I was dis grunted, I wasn't even annoyed. Perhaps I dare say I felt amused that he made that comment. I guess I should have added that he was polite all the time, so there was no need for any reprimand or for me to issue a complaint to the management. I can also add that so far all of the staff of Camp 5 have conducted themselves in a good and professional manner. There, that should clear it up.

My intention in posting was to share, get comments from other climbers, and perhaps get a comment from the management (which you have done). Anything gets battered in RC.com, so I guess it is a side effect of posting here. Out of all the 2 cent given, sometimes you do get some useful info. My main point was: saying Camp 5 prefers the HFM is one thing, saying the RFM is a bad habit is another. I do believe I did not say anything about the staff being jerks or anything like that.

In reply to:
................
Whilst the intentions of the Marshal were correct, I can agree that the execution was misguided. ............. I am indeed grateful that you could acknowledge the “good” intentions and were willing to comply with the Marshal’s request.

Well, we are in agreement on that matter, the staff should have gotten his facts right.

In reply to:
Also in regarding to your comment:

“I normally use the extra friction mode only when I climb outdoors, as with dynamic ropes I will need the extra grip. When I climb in gyms, I use the standard mode as the rope is stiffer, and I can have a smoother belay for TR.”

Perhaps you should be aware that, as should always be the case with all forms of climbing (indoor, outdoor, top-roped or lead), we ONLY use dynamic rope. Also our ropes are kept in very good order so I do not feel you should have any complications using the Atc in any mode on ropes......... Yes, we do allow you to use the Atc in RFM mode if this is your preference.

Thank you for your clarification, mistake on my part. Camp 5 is using dynamic rope and it is in good order, but it is way stiffer from the rope that I own. It also feels like it has less stretch than mine, but I think that should be expected for roped used primarily for TR. Therefore I do feel that I can get a smoother belay using RFM (thank you for giving the correct term) in your gym, so I shall continue to use it. It comes down to personal preference, I guess.

In reply to:
No hard feelings and I hope in future, please, do us both a favor, bring your complaints to the front desk so we can both insure that Camp5, and the people who work here, understand our members.

No hard feelings, and it is good to know that in fact there is no official rule for Camp 5 to always use the HFM of the ATC-XP. Glad we cleared that up.


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