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ter_bee
Mar 10, 2006, 4:45 AM
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i used to defend anyone who brought dogs to the crag. what kind of nature lovers don't like dogs, honestly? and why should humans claim rights to wildernesses that animals don't have?
but last fall at muir valley, we climbed near three czechs who had two english mastiffs (each weighing more than i) and one young and very energetic black lab. they seemed to have no leash.
these people climbed hard and were quite nice to talk to, but their dogs: oh my god!
one of my partners had brought her sweet yellow lab with her. her dog was on a leash the entire time. the mastiffs were very interested in her dog, and slobbered profusely in her direction. all over her, actually. she was terrified. one of them nipped her. my partner complained to the owners, who apologized and shouted at the mastiffs but failed to produce a leash.
then the male mastiff took a liking to my other (male) partner. he sat down facing him (and towering above him) and produced a prodigious erection. my partner and i watched as the organ sprouted, wondering whether to be amused or frightened. the owners chalked it up to young maleness. of course young males take to my partner (not me!), but some young males need a nice strong collar and a shank. and surgery.
the black lab puppy, easily the most likable dog there, could NOT have been happier to find another lab nearby. no matter that his new friend was in no position to play, having a short leash and an attentive owner. so the black lab approached and reatreated repeatedly, and eventually tangled his adorable self in our leash. my partner's hubby ended up grabbing him by the root of his tail and lifting him rather painfully out of his predicament.
nobody would have noticed except the puppy (in midair) squealed. immediately at least five people, including me and my partners, took running steps toward him to try to stop what was happening. but it was over before we got there (lots of shouting helped). it was, after all, kind of hard to fault the hubby for losing patience after all the czech's rudeness.
guilt-laden aside: until i hit fourth grade, the towns we lived in had no leash laws. so our dear old irving (an ENORMOUS smelly collie) ran free and jumped on whomever he liked. and often tried to hump them. surprisingly, he was popular. total strangers knew him. looking back, i wonder what his victims thought of us.
this is more like a dog-motivated ethics-laden trip report, but i thought it might be fun to read.
enjoy and expound. did anybody else meet those czechs?
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jwood
Mar 10, 2006, 5:00 AM
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It's kind of funny how it works. People who have their dogs on leashes get annoyed at those whose dogs are off leashes. I on the other hand almost never have my dog on a leash, and get annoyed at people who bring there dogs to the crag only to tie them up. What's the deal with that anyway? If the lab was so mellow, why the leash?
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mowz
Mar 10, 2006, 5:04 AM
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In reply to: i used to defend anyone who brought dogs to the crag. what kind of nature lovers don't like dogs, honestly? and why should humans claim rights to wildernesses that animals don't have?
It's not that some of us want to claim the rights to wilderness. It's about being curteous to others and respecting their spaces. And just because one loves nature doesn't mean one has to like dogs. I don't like dogs or cats. Does that mean I hate nature? No. It means I don't like cats or dogs. Do you like every creature that walks the Earth?
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mdude
Mar 10, 2006, 5:27 AM
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Dogs at the crags suck. I SAID SUCK!
MD
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slavetogravity
Mar 10, 2006, 5:31 AM
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I work as a Backcountry Ranger for BC Parks and when in comes to enforcement issues, the hardest and most frustrating aspect of my job is enforcing the laws we have regarding park visitors and their dogs.
Seriously, I would rather deal with a dozen drunken bush parties before I’d want to deal with one asshole local and their un leashed dog.
Over the years, I’ve dealt with timber poachers, wildlife poachers, suicides, drowning, vandals, thieves; I’ve evicted dug addicted squatters, and evicted about a thousand drunks. But the hardest, and I’m talking the hardest thing I’ve ever had to do in my job was telling someone to put their dog on its leash.
For me the issue is like this.
For the dog owner, their dog is their child and they’re the parent.
For me, or anyone to come up and tell them what they can and can not do with their dog is akin me telling them that they’re raising their children wrong and that I have the answer as to how they should be raising them.
Personally, I believe that problems arise when climber numbers reach a critical mass where not having rules regarding dogs no longer becomes a viable option. In many climbing areas, having your dog on a leash is mandatory, and in others, dogs have been banned. Climbers have to take responsibly their dogs. If they don’t, their actions will be held accountable in the form of fines, evictions, or the banning of dogs from their favorite crag.
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maldaly
Mar 10, 2006, 6:20 AM
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I love my dog, Zacho (Is zacho dog?) and I take her everywhere with me. Except the crags. I'm sorry but I think the base of crags is no place for a dog. I can't tell you haw many times I've seen belayers give sloppy or inattentive belays because they're paying attention to their dogs. There's nothing worse than being next to a dog owner and having to listen to them yell at their dog to stop whatever they're doing.
Bubba!!! No!!! Buuuuuba!!! NOOO!!!!! I SAID NO!!! GODDAMNIT BUBBA, IF I HAVE TO STOP BELAYING TO COME OVER TO GET YOU TO QUIT EATING THAT PB&J I"M GONNA WHACK YOU INTO ETERNITY!!!
Or whatever.
Dogs on leash are the worst, BTW. They're the one who get in fights. They're the ones you trip over on the access trail. If you insist on taking your dog to the crag, let the mutt off the leash.
But please, please, please...leave your dogs at home. They'll love you for it. I swear.
Mal
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roshiaitareya
Mar 10, 2006, 6:31 AM
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In reply to: ... a prodigious erection. my partner and i watched as the organ sprouted... the owners chalked it up...
Um :? I've often joked about climbing with that kind of jam...
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olib
Mar 10, 2006, 6:55 AM
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I have three big dogs. I consider them part of my family, and love them very much. My dogs are pretty well behaved, but they have their faults. My dogs love to chase bunnies, play with other dogs, and jump up on people. When they are in play mode they don't listen to me or my wife. I almost never take my dogs to the crag, because I don't think its fair to have them lashed to my harness while I stand around belaying. I feel even worse when they whine as soon as I get 10 feet off the ground. If I do take my dogs to the crag I keep them on a leash at all times, and try my best to give them a toy, or talk a partner into petting them while I am climbing.
I have heard many times, (and in certain cases believe,) the argument that goes: "My dog is really well trained, and doesn't need to be on a leash."
I know that some dogs tend not to cause problems with others. I submit however that no dog owner can guarantee that their dog will NEVER misbehave, or cause any problems for anyone else. Here are three examples that I believe support leash laws, especially at your local crag.
Example 1: A very friendly and loving dog comes to the bouldering crag often. As I pull the crux move on my current project the dog steps on the pad so as to get a good angle to sniff my spotter's crotch. The dog doesn't know that if I fall I will either land on him, or in my attempt to avoid him I might break my ankle, kick my spotter in the face, or both. This friendly pooch didn't pass physics in high school, and doesn't particularly know that what goes up must come down. He does know however, that my partner's crotch smells good.
Example 2: I work around Police K-9's, which are highly trained and very well disciplined dogs. If you have ever seen a K-9 work you know that they are highly responsive to thier handlers commands. I consider these dogs to be better trained and more disciplined than any dog I have met at the base of a cliff. I have been bitten twice by K-9's in the last two years, because of my own mistakes. In one instance I was bitten after stepping on the dog's tail while climbing into an attic. In the second, I made what the dog perceived as an aggressive act against the dog's handler. Dogs it seems don't understand horseplay well. Most dogs will defend themselves and their owners from perceived threats, and your dog can't explain why he felt threatened in court.
Example 3: Well behaved mutt is lying at his owners feet obidiently, happily accepting praise and petting from every dog loving tourist who stops to ask, "how do you get the rope up there," and, "what happens if you fall?" Said mutt neither cares to sniff crotch, nor knows enough about handler defense to bite would-be assailants. Visting Czech dog owner sees that above mentioned mutt is allowed to rome free, and decides that he need not leash the twin mastiffs he calls Olaf and Egor. Czech dog owner gets ticket because his stallion Egor humps the leg of friendly ticket writing park ranger. Czech feels as if he has been treated unfairly because well behaved mutt is loose to do as he pleases, yet received no ticket. This example speaks to the essence of our legal system, and the idea that laws are there for a reason, and just because your dog isnt the kind of dog the law was created for, the "I'll know it when I see it" argument has been quashed in more important legal battles.
Lee G.
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tedwarski
Mar 10, 2006, 10:08 AM
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In reply to: my partner's crotch smells good |
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jkarns
Mar 10, 2006, 1:32 PM
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I really think that its all about know9ing the particulars of the place you're going. As with anything in life, there are no absolutes.
1. Are there any dog regulations? if so, FOLLOW THEM.
2. What kind of climbing will you be doing? Multipitch? leave the dog at home!
3. How crowded is it likely to be? Gunks on a fall weekend? Exploring little-known boulders in the middle of nowhere?
4. What are the weather conditions? Freezing? Blazing? Just right?
I like to take my pooch bouldering when we're going to places that see very little travel, and she LOVES it!! I often feel comfortable letting her off the leash, and I always bring a long cable with me to tie her to a tree out of the way if there are other people around. It's all about using common sense and knowing what's appropriate.
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corpse
Mar 10, 2006, 1:38 PM
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I have always been massively against dogs at the crags.. However, lately, I'm starting to reconsider some of my views. I just got a retired 9yr old Malinois which was bred and also highly trained in personal protection - the dog listens VERY well. The dog is very social, so I don't worry about her nipping strangers. However, I hear she hates female dogs, although I haven't seen this yet (until I see her around another female dog) - so this might be the reason I have to keep her away from the crag. She spent her life growing up in the back woods of TN, so to leave her at home while I go to the crag almost seems unfair for her, in that regard. I still feel that the fairness and respect of the other climbers is higher though... I suppose I will try a short partial/full day trip and see how well she does.. I believe dogs should always be on a leash, which mine would be; likewise, they should be quiet - either by nature or by queue, as not to disrupt someone climbing.. Then there's the crap - I don't like cleaning up crap, and really don't want to deal with that at the crag - so yet another reason I might opt to leave her at home.
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ter_bee
Mar 10, 2006, 2:08 PM
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In reply to: It's kind of funny how it works. People who have their dogs on leashes get annoyed at those whose dogs are off leashes. I on the other hand almost never have my dog on a leash, and get annoyed at people who bring there dogs to the crag only to tie them up. What's the deal with that anyway? If the lab was so mellow, why the leash?
weirdly, this was the response i sympathized most with. i spent that day feeling really sorry for my friend's tied-up dog.
in the woods it's hard to get anywhere with a dog on a leash. they're constantly getting tangled on things. but i really think you can't ignore the politeness and especially safety issues they can create.
my parents are paying their karmic debt for raising dear smelly irving by parenting two of the best trained border collies on earth. those two don't need a leash. they wouldn't move if we didn't release them to, and they aren't enormous and scary. so maybe there is an intermediate path.
only get border collies?
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seric
Mar 10, 2006, 2:10 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: i used to defend anyone who brought dogs to the crag. what kind of nature lovers don't like dogs, honestly? and why should humans claim rights to wildernesses that animals don't have? It's not that some of us want to claim the rights to wilderness. It's about being curteous to others and respecting their spaces. And just because one loves nature doesn't mean one has to like dogs. I don't like dogs or cats. Does that mean I hate nature? No. It means I don't like cats or dogs. Do you like every creature that walks the Earth?
Thank Mowz for spelling that out. The original post starts with a wrong assumption.
[rant] Why would I have a nice day out with a peeing, pooing, barking, drooling, invasive (add more here) specie that I cannot communicate with, and which will eventually snap at me for a random reason? (not to talk about their owners who pretend to TALK to their animal -often in a ridiculous voice- ridiculous).[/rant]
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ter_bee
Mar 10, 2006, 2:17 PM
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ps to olib: point taken (belatedly). nice dogs without leashes might encourage stallion-owning czechs to take theirs off the leash. bastard czechs.
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tanderson
Mar 10, 2006, 2:56 PM
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Blah, Blah, Blah complain all you want. Whatever... I take my dog "Elmo" in the woods with me everytime and guess what... He's usually not on a leash. Don't be a jerk about my dog or its your problem. NOT mine. "Elmo" is a 100lb pitbull that loves most, but hates annoying climbers that complain about dogs! He's always got a ragin' red rocket and thats just the way it is when he's happy. Just like most of us! People need to worry about more important things.... My climbing days are always good. There's nothing anyone can say that'll change Elmo's mind. We're going climbing. See ya in the woods!
:lol:
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tanderson
Mar 10, 2006, 2:59 PM
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O yeah and dog crap in the woods... How horrible is that. Give me a break!
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corpse
Mar 10, 2006, 3:33 PM
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In reply to: O yeah and dog crap in the woods... How horrible is that. Give me a break!
dog crap in the WOODS in not a big deal, anyone thinking so should stay out of the woods however, dog crap at the base of a climb or on a trail IS.
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fallingup
Mar 10, 2006, 3:50 PM
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Dogs, even good ones in my opinion, are too much to handle while you are belaying or climbing for that matter. I own 2 dogs and would never think of taking them climbing with me. One is a husky (Zoe) the other is a samoyd mix (Julius). Both are wonderful, happy, adjusted dogs but I would never take the leash off Zoe for the obvious reasons. Julius I might let hem off the leash but since he is a rescue we don't know what might set him off. I'll take them for long walks, day hikes, biking on paved trails and eventually camping but never to a crag where I would have to leave them tied up or running loose.
-fallingup
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tanderson
Mar 10, 2006, 4:32 PM
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Why IS it a problem Corpse? You afraid of a little poo? Ohhh nooo the pooo got me!! Its a problem because YOU think it is. No problem otherwise :cry: Every other animal in the woods craps there too. As well as YOU when you're out there. Who cares where it is. Step over it and get climbing! It'll be dry and gone in no time!
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justthemaid
Mar 10, 2006, 4:43 PM
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Oh Goodie- another dog thread.
I like dogs. In general, I find that most crag dogs are pretty well behaved . You do run into the occasional problem dogs, who make me really wish everyone would just leave their dogs at home.
Random example: I'm sitting watching a friend belay. A scruffy dog, no leash, no owner, comes up and sniffs me. I go to let him sniff my hand, and I get yelled at. The owner ( who finally hikes up) yells "don't do that- he bites." I'm thinking WTF? Why bring your unfriendly, biting dog with no leash to a climbing crag full of people? I'm not sue happy, but if that dog had bitten me I would have sued that guy for everything he owned.
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ccox
Mar 10, 2006, 4:55 PM
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Dog's behavior reflects the owner. If your dog is annoying, so are you for bringing him/her to the crag. Some breeds are more annoying than others, like the mastifs that essentially are masterless. If your dog has no boundaries or sense of respect for other beings, that is a reflection of the owner. If the owner doesn't have confidence/experience that their animal can peacefully co-exist with other dogs and climbers, then they should make the decision to leash the dog or leave it at home. This is especially true for people with more than one dog. If your dog likes to fight, leave em home, a leash won't solve the problem because other leashless dogs may wander too close. I would prefer that only very well behaved dogs be allowed to run loose at the crags, which is generally the case. You're taking climbing too seriously if you think all dogs should be left home. Every person who has ever met my dog Ty (a pit bull/boxer mix) has loved him and been glad to meet him at the crag. He's been a nuisance only when there are many other dogs running around. If I sense any problems, I immobilize him with a leash until conditions change. Be the master, and let your dog have fun too.
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j_ung
Mar 10, 2006, 5:00 PM
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I have a 25 lb. Cocker Spaniel who is well-behaved at the crags, likes people, and doesn't steal food, bark, bite children or shit on the trail. The one time I had trouble was when another climber was expressed that she was very allergic to dogs. In that case was I happy to put mine on a runner far away from her. And everybody, including my dog, had a great day. My dog will not love me for leaving her at home, although she will love me in spite of it, which is why I don't bring her to overly crowded areas or multi-pitch crags.
I'll repeat what I've said many times prior: the problem isn't dogs at the crag, it's idiot and inconsiderate dog owners. And the solution isn't to implore people not bring their dogs (I, for one, will never agree to it), but rather to educate people on what is and isn't acceptable crag-dog behavior.
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csproul
Mar 10, 2006, 5:07 PM
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In reply to: I have a 25 lb. Cocker Spaniel who is well-behaved at the crags, likes people, and doesn't steal food, bark, bite children or s--- on the trail. The one time I had trouble was when another climber was expressed that she was very allergic to dogs. In that case was I happy to put mine on a runner far away from her. And everybody, including my dog, had a great day. My dog will not love me for leaving her at home, although she will love me in spite of it, which is why I don't bring her to overly crowded areas or multi-pitch crags. I'll repeat what I've said many times prior: the problem isn't dogs at the crag, it's idiot and inconsiderate dog owners. And the solution isn't to implore people not bring their dogs (I, for one, will never agree to it), but rather to educate people on what is and isn't acceptable crag-dog behavior. |
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maldaly
Mar 10, 2006, 5:28 PM
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Lots of good comments here. Zacho is about as well behaved and mellow as any dog that exists. What I can't control, however, is what the canine conditions may be at any given hour of any given day at any given crag. I lover her and cherish any time that I get to spend with her. I choose to leave her at home, rather than taking her to the crag, because most of the time, the dog situation is uncomfortable. Sometimes it's aggressive behavior; sometimes it just tripping over leashes when you're belaying and, often, there's some wing-nut yelling at their dog trying to impress others with how well they control their dog. It sucks. The dog situation at some of the popular crags at Indian Creek, Eldo, Table Mountain, Shelf Road is so out of control I try to climb elsewhere.
If I'm going bouldering or cragging to a place where I'm pretty sure there won't be others around Zacho will accompany me. Otherwise she gets to chase squirrels in the back yard.
Mal
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plund
Mar 10, 2006, 5:40 PM
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"More on dogs" OR "MORON owners"??
A well-behaved crag dog who stays put, stays mellow, and STAYS OUT of people's stuff can be great company...always nice to have a fuzzy pal...
A poorly-behaved dog can be a major buzz kill for everyone around...
Unfortunately, one can't always determine the above before arrival at the rock, so if there's any doubt, please leave 'em home!
It's not the dog's fault for behaving like a canine...unless said canine drove itself to the crag...
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