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adklimber


Mar 7, 2006, 9:37 AM
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Campus Board for PE Training
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I am currently training for the upcoming Spring (using Rockprodigy's article as a guideline), and I was wondering about using the Campus Board for Power Endurance training. It seems it would certainly be a more systematic approach to the PE phase. By just climbing longer routes that almost pumps you out does not seem systematic enough for training specificity. I understand the importance of climbing routes like this, however, I do not understand why you would place it into your periodized phase.

I did not think of this myself, I read it on a Neil Gresham article. I just wonder if anyone has tried this.


adklimber


Mar 7, 2006, 9:50 AM
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To be more specific, it is my undestanding that you would choose a rung size (for me it would be a larger one) and move up and down the ladder, one rung at a time, until you almost pump out. Do this up to 60 sec. 3 - 5 reps.


mistercarnage


Mar 7, 2006, 6:37 PM
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Try reading this:

https://www.moonclimbing.com/...=school&school_id=19

There is a short section on Power Endurance training on the board which might help.


adklimber


Mar 8, 2006, 6:36 AM
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I have actually read this before. However, I have never seen or heard anyone put this into their PE phase. Any experienced feedback would be good.


tomma


Mar 8, 2006, 3:11 PM
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'just climbing longer routes that almost pump you out ' is definitely not the way to go, esp. not for the power component,

i'm also not sure if doing campus for 60s is the right one..

in fact, don't really believe that there is such a thing as power endurance;-),
but sa i remember neil gresham's article, he advocates doing 'shorter routes that pump you out' ,

and i would suggest dynamic bouldering problems of around 10-15 moves..


fluxus


Mar 9, 2006, 1:59 PM
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In reply to:
It seems it would certainly be a more systematic approach to the PE phase. By just climbing longer routes that almost pumps you out does not seem systematic enough for training specificity. I understand the importance of climbing routes like this, however, I do not understand why you would place it into your periodized phase.

I did not think of this myself, I read it on a Neil Gresham article. I just wonder if anyone has tried this.

Its true that "just climbing longer routes that almost pump you out" is not a systemic training method, but why pretend that climbing in that way is definitive of how routes are used to train anaerobic endurance when its not?

The interval structure is the heart of anaerobic endurance training when the intensity and duration of each work / rest period are well controlled in relation to either a performance goal or a training goal, intervals are a very systematic method.

Lets say that I want to train for a red point of State of Grace, a really fun 5.13a/b at a Echo cliffs here in Socal. I begin by asking, what is the nature of the route? What will I need to be able to do to climb this thing?

The route is about 80-90 feet long, very slightly overhanging.
The climbing consists of mostly of 5.11b/c, and the only rest on the route is too low to make a difference. There are three different boulder problems, one low on the route-V3, one in the middle-V4+ and one high on the route-V3+.

An ascent of this route will take about 3 - 4 minutes depending upon the pace used, but since there are no real rests, faster will be better, but the route is long enough that its unlikely that I could do it any faster than 3 minutes.

Now that the demands of the route are defined its pretty easy to imagine what the interval training for this route would look like. Myself, I would take a two pronged approach, by using both intervals on routes and bouldering 4X4s.

The goal of laps on routes would be to work up to being able to do 6 intervals on sustained 5.11c keeping the climbing time consistent at about 3 minutes, and the rest interval between laps to 3 minutes or a little less.

For the 4X4s my goal would be to work up to a level where I could mix up the difficulty of the problems so each set may look like this: V4-, V1,V3,V2.

the set times at my gym would be about 1:45 - 2 minutes because the bouldering area is not so tall. The rest interval would again be about the same as the set time or a bit longer.

In both types of workouts I would choose routes and problems that had a variety of hold types and that were similar in angle to State of Grace.
By taking this approach I train both high and mid range intensity anaerobic endurance and I should be more than fit enough to quickly send the route after I can do good quality intervals at the intensities and durations described above.


I would think that using the campus board to train anaerobic endurance would be very limiting.

1) The holds on a board simulate a very narrow range of hand hold types and joint angle positions.

2) The movement is always the same, and does not reproduce climbing movement.

3) The durataions are very short, and have no relation to actual performance durations on routes.

anyway, that's one perspective on the issue.


namoclimber


Mar 9, 2006, 2:09 PM
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What about HIT training for a rout like that , Seems to me that training in such a method with extreme over hang and endurance, would almost do the trick for any type of slight over hang to roof climb.


sidepull


Mar 9, 2006, 2:40 PM
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namo - I disagree. I think HIT might help, but it's way too general for accomplishing the same task that flux is describing.

flux - at what point in a periodized program would you work that type of routine in? or are you suggesting that individuals categorize their projects according to phase and then use each phase as an opportunity to train for those projects? For example:

endurance phase - 5.10 100' dihedral at Indian Creek
power-enduro phase - 5.12 overhang at Maple Canyon
power phase - v8 boulder problem at red rocks

or do you just train in cycles for the project itself (note to self: I really need your book).


fluxus


Mar 9, 2006, 3:17 PM
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In reply to:
flux - at what point in a periodized program would you work that type of routine in? or are you suggesting that individuals categorize their projects according to phase and then use each phase as an opportunity to train for those projects? For example:

endurance phase - 5.10 100' dihedral at Indian Creek
power-enduro phase - 5.12 overhang at Maple Canyon
power phase - v8 boulder problem at red rocks

or do you just train in cycles for the project itself.

I don't see any problem at all with doing what you suggest.

Yes you could also train in cycles for the project itself, but when training for a specific project what you do is determined by your base level, and where the project fits in relation to your seasonal performance goals. So you need to address the specific context.

Another way to do it, the way I have done things most often, is to do a full assessment of the climber's base level and seasonal goals at the beginning of the season and to start working on red point and on-sight pyramids right away while also engaging in specific training phases. So, a climber's RP pyramid might start at 5.10c and top out at 5.11c. Its more than likely that they can work on any type of 5.10c they want to while working an endurance phase. 5.10c while necessary for base building is not challenging enough to require specific fitness gains.

As for HIT strips. while both HIT strips and campusing are good activities for training the forearms the question remains, how well does the activity simulate the demands of the performance in question? The demands of red pointing a hard route effect the entire body and movement is extremely important. HIT strips and campusing do not reproduce the intense motor demands of actual climbing movement. This means that while they may be effective supplemental activities they should not be considered primary training activities unless you face an extreme situation, such as little or no access to rock or a gym, i.e. no ability to train through movement.


diligentia


Mar 9, 2006, 4:37 PM
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In reply to:
Yes you could also train in cycles for the project itself, but when training for a specific project what you do is determined by your base level, and where the project fits in relation to your seasonal performance goals. So you need to address the specific context.

Just a couple things to add here. First, when Doug outlined the interval procedure in a previous post, he was describing a specific exercise designed to help send a specific route. If it has not already been made clear, this routine would not translate well to other routes or goals unless they are similar in nature, i.e. slightly overhung with cruxes low and high. Neither was he implying use of a periodized schedule, although if you were pursuing a periodized schedule you would want to include some interval work to improve your anaerobic endurance.

Anaerobic endurance training is usually the last period in a periodized schedule. As you move out of the strength phase you would increase anaerobic training in the form of 4X4's or timed laps which Doug previously described. It's not necessary nor desirable to perform hard interval training for more than 3 to 5 weeks. Anaerobic endurance trains fairly quickly, but doing too much can result in general fatigue.

That said, periodized training is not my preferred method of improvement. For most climbers the rigors of a periodized schedule are untenable. Periodizing produces a peak, yes, and that peak can result in climbing near your potential, but the peak is typically short lived. On the flip side, there is the valley in which performance is far below potential. You've got to slog through a lot of tedious exercises over a fairly lengthy period to produce a meaningful peak. Most climbers I know are unwilling to climb far below their potential for an extended time in order to get a few weeks of peak.

As an alternative try the progressive pyramid method Doug outlines below. You won't peak, but you'll sure have a lot more fun pursuing your goals. For a more detailed description and help in creating your own pyramid, see our book. :wink:

In reply to:
Another way to do it, the way I have done things most often, is to do a full assessment of the climber's base level and seasonal goals at the beginning of the season and to start working on red point and on-sight pyramids right away while also engaging in specific training phases. So, a climber's RP pyramid might start at 5.10c and top out at 5.11c. Its more than likely that they can work on any type of 5.10c they want to while working an endurance phase. 5.10c while necessary for base building is not challenging enough to require specific fitness gains.


adklimber


Mar 10, 2006, 8:27 AM
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[quoThe interval structure is the heart of anaerobic endurance training when the intensity and duration of each work / rest period are well controlled in relation to either a performance goal or a training goal, intervals are a very systematic method.
te]

So if my goal was to send 'Eon Blue Apocalypse', a V6 in Triassic which consists of 3 very stressfull overhanging moves and 4 - 5 less taxing sequences; my training should consist of 4 boulder problems that are V1, V2, V3, and V4 range that best simulate Eon Blue, and do 4*4 with 2-3 minutes rest between each set? So, is this a better alternative to actually working on the proj?

I also have the dilemma of two very different problems (which are both goals), the V6 I mentioned above, and a V8 which is much different, slightly overhanging with two big moves...much more dynamic.

JP


fluxus


Mar 10, 2006, 10:11 AM
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In reply to:
So if my goal was to send 'Eon Blue Apocalypse', a V6 in Triassic which consists of 3 very stressfull overhanging moves and 4 - 5 less taxing sequences; my training should consist of 4 boulder problems that are V1, V2, V3, and V4 range that best simulate Eon Blue, and do 4*4 with 2-3 minutes rest between each set? So, is this a better alternative to actually working on the proj?

Actually, I wouldn't use 4X4s for this unless you think the duration of your ascent will be pretty long for a boulder problem, say 2:00 or so, then some high intensity anaerobic endurance might be called for. This is usually not as much of an issue in bouldering because the durations are often so short. there are exceptions of course but you get the idea. Another idea would be to do intervals such as 2X8. do two difficult boulder problems back to back then take a 3 min. rest and do this 8 times. I would keep the rest long in this kind of workout. That would keep the intensity up, and not go very deep into the AE realm.

When working with boulderers my goal is usually to get them well established at the next level, rather than to prep them for a single project. The reason for this is that because boulderers can do so much climbing in a day they can broaden and raise their base level faster than route climbers. I see this as a real advantage and opportunity. That being said here is how I typically approach the issue:

first priority: continuous intensity repetion (C.I.R.) workouts. These consist of 10 - 15 boulder problems all at the same level of difficulty in one workout. In order to do this kind of volume you need to be working at the intensity at which you can successfully send each problem in 1 - 3 tries. you take long rests between each attempt, you should never get a pump when doing this. In your first workout your goal is to establish what grade this is, in the workouts that follow you will attempt to raise this grade by doing vairable intensity repetitions. So lets say that in your first workout you can do 13 X V3. You can do the problems in 1 - 3 tries, the early problems feel super easy but by the time you get to the last 3 problems the cumlative fatigue makes these problems feel really hard. This would be perfect. Your next workout would be vairable intensity, in that you would attempt to mix in a few V4s with the V3s so you might do 10 X V3 and 2 XV4. In each workout you attempt to add a few more V4s until you can do 10 - 15 X V4 in the workout and so on.

Second Priority: Onsights / projecting. When you climb outside, keep building your base by dividing your time. rather than spending the entire day projecting, break up your time and spend part of the day attempting to on-sight problems, or repeat problems that you have already done in one try. spend the other part of the day doing some projecting and be sure to use power spots and what not to help learn the movements faster.

Third priority: Threshold bouldering. This should take up a small portion of your time. In threshold bouldering you are attempting moves that are several V grades above what you have previously done. So if your hardest send is V5 your threshold level will be V7 or V8. each attempt will be very short probably lasting no more than about 20 seconds for 1 - 3 moves. If you can do more than 3 moves in a row on the probelm then move to a more difficult problem. Again use power spots to help you stay on and learn the moves. These workouts last up to 1 hour and thats about it. focus your attention on 3 -4 different problems and never do this with moves or holds that feel like they might cause an injury.

Is all this an alternative to actually working on the proj? That depends on where your base is. If your base is in the V2 - V3 range then I'd say yes. if your base is V4 or higher than I think you can split your time. Another way to look at it is the number of tries it takes to do the project. If you are spending days projecting a V6, my opinion is that's too long to be projecting a single boulder problem.

I think that the most important vairable in improving bouldering performance is the amount of successful sends you do in a day of climbing or training that fall within 60 - 80% of your maximum effort. If you continually climb in a manner that provides a high volume of success each day at the intensity level, I'm confident in saying that you can improve pretty rapidly. Just get plenty of rest and pay attention if you feel any nagging pain that might be the sign of over use injuries. I do not recommend doing CIR / VIR 4 days per week. It depends upon the individual but for an old fart like me the most C.I.R. / V.I.R. I can handle is two workouts in a 8-9 day period.

maybe you could do this:

Tuesday: C.I.R.

Wednesday: endurance as active rest or just passive rest.

Thursday: 2 X 8.

Firday: active or passive rest

Saturday / Sunday: climb outside. Project on Saturday. On-sights and repeats on Sunday.

Monday: rest.

that's a lot of climbing in a week so you would need to check this against your need for rest.

In reply to:
I also have the dilemma of two very different problems (which are both goals), the V6 I mentioned above, and a V8 which is much different, slightly overhanging with two big moves...much more dynamic.

In the approach I've outlined above there is plenty of room for you to choose problems that contain similar types of movement to these two problems.

Anyway, those are some thoughts.


diligentia


Mar 10, 2006, 11:00 AM
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In reply to:
So if my goal was to send 'Eon Blue Apocalypse', a V6 in Triassic which consists of 3 very stressful overhanging moves and 4 - 5 less taxing sequences; my training should consist of 4 boulder problems that are V1, V2, V3, and V4 range that best simulate Eon Blue, and do 4*4 with 2-3 minutes rest between each set? So, is this a better alternative to actually working on the proj?

We typically don't find a major anaerobic component to boulder problems unless they're long. Are you finding yourself pumping out on Eon Blue? If not, anaerobic endurance training won't be very helpful in sending this problem.

A better exercise might by continuous intensity repetitions. This exercise results in better stamina so you can climb longer and at a higher intensity in any given day and can boost your top end as well. In your case start with V2s. Do 15 V2s in a single workout, but unlike intervals you won't be timing your rest period. Take as much rest between the problems as you want but complete 15 different V2s. I know that V2 seems light for your ability level, but this workout has a tendency to fatigue even the strongest climbers. If after completing the V2 workout you don't feel tired and very worked, up the intensity by moving to V3's or substitute a few V3's for some of the V2s. Once you find the combination of problems that create exhaustion, repeat a couple of times a week adding problems at the higher difficulty as needed to produce exhaustion. Oh, and try to match the nature of the problems in the exercise to that of Eon Blue.

Remember as well that CIR would just be one component of an overall scheme to reach your goal. Have you set up a progressive pyramid to take you from where you are now to where you want to go?


adklimber


Mar 10, 2006, 12:15 PM
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Fluxus,

Thanks for taking the time to reply with all this great information. I just ordered your book from Barnes and Noble. Looking forward to studying it.

Can this type of training also help with short powerful sport routes?

JP


fluxus


Mar 10, 2006, 2:05 PM
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In reply to:
Fluxus,

Thanks for taking the time to reply with all this great information. I just ordered your book from Barnes and Noble. Looking forward to studying it.

Can this type of training also help with short powerful sport routes?

JP

My pleasure, I hope it is helpful.

It depends, I do find that this training helps with the red point of short sport routes, but again the specifics matter and by the time the duration of the performance gets to be a few minutes long anaerobic endurance becomes just as important or more important. The devil is in the details.


sidepull


Mar 10, 2006, 5:04 PM
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this is such a cool thread! good ideas here. :)


adklimber


Mar 13, 2006, 8:21 AM
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In reply to:
That said, periodized training is not my preferred method of improvement. For most climbers the rigors of a periodized schedule are untenable. Periodizing produces a peak, yes, and that peak can result in climbing near your potential, but the peak is typically short lived. On the flip side, there is the valley in which performance is far below potential. You've got to slog through a lot of tedious exercises over a fairly lengthy period to produce a meaningful peak. Most climbers I know are unwilling to climb far below their potential for an extended time in order to get a few weeks of peak.

Two things on this:

1. The question I have is improvement over a long period, say 5 years. You admit that periodization creates peaks and "valleys", and the thought is that even with the lows over time there will be overall gains in performance; a steady increase from one peak to the next. I definitely agree that a periodized schedule is not for every climber, most climbers I have talked to took up climbing to get away from strict training routines found in the sports they grew up in (including myself). However, it seems one would still have ups and downs with any training regime including fluxus' interval training methods.

2. I am not questioning which is the more fun approach, but I am wondering if getting away from climbing movement for a time, while still training for climbing, could be an advantage. In my short and humble experience as a climber, I find it good, mentally, to be seperated from the grades and even climbing movement itself for a time to be 'recharged' (for lack of a better term). Maybe this is just my experience, but I think it is nice to get away from the the boulder wall at the gym (especially in winter) and focus on hanging or campusing for a time. Can anyone else relate?


jto


Mar 13, 2006, 10:44 PM
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Indeed a nice thread.

Ok, the 4x4 is always introduced as the greatest tool for PE training as I think it very well might be. I was wondering why it couldnīt be 6(sets)x3(boulders) or 5x5 or what ever around the desired time/goal range? Fluxus introduces 8x2 (or 2x8, which ever way reps x sets are written. I use set x rep) which is a pointer in the direction Iīm talking about.

I mean if one wants to work on the power end of the endurance, he might do fewer reps on boulders but maybe do more of them. And if he wants to train the endurance part more, there might be more boulders in a row per set.

PE training is time dependant so if I do 4 reps on 3-4 move boulders (if there arenīt longer ones or if the space is limited) that take me only less than 2 minutes to complete why shouldnīt I do 1-2 more to get the desired amount of time needed for a given set?

As a strength coach a usually hate... well, dislike, all the number mantras as they serve usually only memory and not purpose. The excact set and rep numbers take something away from the training too, I think.


fluxus


Mar 14, 2006, 1:32 PM
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In reply to:
Indeed a nice thread.

Ok, the 4x4 is always introduced as the greatest tool for PE training as I think it very well might be. I was wondering why it couldnīt be 6(sets)x3(boulders) or 5x5 or what ever around the desired time/goal range?

PE training is time dependant so if I do 4 reps on 3-4 move boulders (if there arenīt longer ones or if the space is limited) that take me only less than 2 minutes to complete why shouldnīt I do 1-2 more to get the desired amount of time needed for a given set?

Yep, I'd say that's exactly right. Its about duration and intensity more than it is the exact number of reps. The 4X4 is easy to remember and is a great all purpose AE workout, but naturally intervals can and should be done in different configurations to meet the climber's needs.


diligentia


Mar 15, 2006, 6:26 AM
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In reply to:
I was wondering why it couldnīt be 6(sets)x3(boulders) or 5x5 or what ever around the desired time/goal range?

PE training is time dependant so if I do 4 reps on 3-4 move boulders (if there arenīt longer ones or if the space is limited) that take me only less than 2 minutes to complete why shouldnīt I do 1-2 more to get the desired amount of time needed for a given set?

The famous New Zealand running coach Arthur Lydiard was once asked about the specifics of his interval training program - how many reps, sets, duration, rest interval. Lydiard responded that he didn't much care about any of those parameters. He said that as long as his runner was truly fatigued at the end of an interval session nothing else really mattered.

I use and prescribe the 4 X 4 because it's easy to contruct and follow and, if done right, meets Lydiard's goal of fatiguing the climber. But this is not to say that other interval programs won't work just as well.


rockprodigy


Mar 15, 2006, 7:40 AM
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Agreed.

I use the term "4x4" to describe my PE workouts, but I rarely, if ever actually do four sets of four boulder problems. When I do a workout, I will have five or six problems that I can choose from, then I use a stopwatch to time the set for a prescribed period of time, say 3:30 for example. I will go through the boulder problems until I've climbed for that period of time, or I reach failure. If I have to, I'll re-climb problems to reach the time goal.

The number of sets also depends on how I feel on that given day, but I probably do 5 sets more often than I do four.


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