As you can see...fingertrouble suggests trying the finish by starting off going under the main loop, and MFOTH suggests going OVER the main loop....

Big difference.

Try looking at the picture with a little attention before you go on a rampage.

Wrap the tail of the retraced 8 one more time around the live end of the rope and then straight back down through the bottom of the knot and it's just as easy to untie as a bowline.

A single Bowlin is not an adequate safety knot. The big advantage (as far as untying goes) is that if you "break it's back", it will easily come undone no matter what kind of strain was placed on it. This could happen on something like a cliff edge.

There is nothing wrong with using a double bwlin though.

Never paper - it was always dot, usually purple but back then it was occasionally baby blue or orange barrels... Two FA's went up on it in '76 - the "Electric Koolaid Acid Test" and "Leaves of the Failing Faith". Almost eerily the crux hold came off each on the second ascent attempts. Both .12+/.13- range and neither would have gone without it, or at least not by me.

i recall that on acid test you broke the crux tiny knob off as you stepped on it during the first ascent...hence my subsequent ascent was "knobless."

i was there on the FA of leaves, too.

but, it's all over now, baby blue...

With colours, so the path can be accurately traced:

http://www.aracnet.com/~aradia/mfoth-yo.jpg

http://www.aracnet.com/~aradia/ft-yo.jpg

Now the explanation:

Red: Tail end immediately after forming the bight
Blue: Tail end forming the yosemite finish
Green: Bight-side loop crossed by the yosemite finish

Immediately after forming the bight, the tail in red crosses over the nip and into the round turn (the hitch). At this point it crosses underneath the bight-side loop in green. Then, in blue, it crosses over the bight-side loop in green, underneath the round turn, and exits through the bight. It's the same in both diagrams.

Under the loop, over the loop, under the knot, out the bight.

Yep, you were and I do wish that had gone down differently as I'm pretty damn sure we both could have been on "Leaves" for another 25 goes had Adam not cut his feet on it his first go. I clearly should have waited a few minutes but the "flow" was happening and I wasn't in much shape for more waiting after meditating on it for hours. I'm still sad both for that and to have never been able to get on it again myself.

As for the "Test", I could be recalling it wrong, that it was still intact, but again given the state I was in afterwards I can't say for sure. I recall it was and came off on you're first go afterwards. That climb, though - as opposed to "Leaves" - was a case of never, ever thinking in my wildest dreams that I might actually get up it. And as odd as it still sounds - I didn't. I had no willful or cognitive involvement whatsoever in managing the crux or the climbing above it; I had given up and fallen off as I always did at that point, only that time my body kept going without me. Still the damnest, most surreal climbing experience I ever had as I actually would like to be able to say "I" did it when in reality, and to be completely honest, I had little to do with it. I had definitely given up, fallen, relaxed, and the rest of the climb was like being along via remote control or watching it TV.

It was breakthrough as far as realizing that my body had way, way more to give than I had ever even thought of asking it, but it wasn't particularly satisfying as the FA's we worked so hard on and did solely by our own volition and determination. It was definitely a case of:
"Take what you have gathered from coincidence..."

I stand corrected. I f*ed up tying it the MFOTH way, and it didn't invert like the other method (that it appears both sources recommend).

The necessity for this drawing and back and forth on how to even tie the YB pretty much says it all. Again, access to a hyperbaric chamber would solve the debate, but while secure, the path and patterns associated with achieving it are simply too convoluted for a high level of repeatability under stress.

Regarding your "examples", I have yet to be able to replicate the first you posted. It appears to be a problem not associated with the yosemite finish, but rather that you simply capsized the knot by letting the hitch straighten out (which isn't even the common manner of capsizing it!).

The second example, which focuses more on the aspect associated with the yosemite finish, is a little closer to what might actually happen, but it stills points to a total lack of understanding about how to set the knot. I wasn't able to replicate it "accidentally", and finally had to make an effort to set it incorrectly.

I did to illustrate how easy it is to f* up that knot. I belive the instructions I gave were pretty clear, perhaps I should take video of it happening.

A lack of understanding is hardly what it points out. I mentioned before my experience using the bowline...I know how to use it and how to set it.

While my issue with the knot may not happen under normal circumstances...it remains a possibility that can occur. If the tie-in loop were to catch upon something climbing, or in a fall....the knot could invert into what I showed. If in a alpine situation where a storm is blowing in, and in your big mitts you only grab part of the knot to set it...it could happen.

These are issues I have with choosing the bowline as a tie-in knot. The figure 8 being easy to identify, easy to tie, and most importantly self tightening with a built in backup.....are reasons why I think the 8 is the tie in knot of choice. Aside from the bowline being easy to tie, IMO...the yosemite bowline posesses none of these qualities.

The widespread adoption of the figure-8 has more to do with the commercial liability of guides and gyms than anything else. It is in no way technically superior from either a human factors or performance perspective. I personally consider it the lowest common denominator tie-in and that doesn't refer to the knot...

This is not the first time you have posted on this thread based on your misunderstandings or inaccuracies. aradia has been commendably patient in dealing with such posts, but the onus falls on you to provide better backup for your claims, which backup has thus far been lacking.

It should be noted that ring-loading is not of major concern in most climbing scenarios. As long as nothing is clipped into the loop, it's nearly impossible to ring-load any sort of loop knot. (Edited to specify: loop knots used for tying in!)

Hmmm. Thin ice.

"As long as nothig is clipped into the loop..."

Do you actually know anything, or do you just make stuff up, based on what you read in books?

If you disagree, feel free to give a real counterargument.

I think you may have outed yourself again, Jim, by posting your concern about ring loading. The Yosemite bowline has no problem with ring loading, inversion or otherwise; had you done simple tests you would know this. Post data if you wish your claims to be considered. The figure-8 does have the ring/side loading problem, which is why the offset figure-8 has been poo-pooed for joining two rappel ropes (in favor of the simpler EDK). I recently repeated some pull tests in connection with the "Improved sliding X..." thread. I tested loops made by ring loading Yosemite bowlines and pulled to failure; the loops broke (not at the knot but at the bollards) before the ring loaded Yosemite bowline failed or deformed in any way.

This is not the first time you have posted on this thread based on your misunderstandings or inaccuracies. aradia has been commendably patient in dealing with such posts, but the onus falls on you to provide better backup for your claims, which backup has thus far been lacking.

The Yosemite bowline has no problem with ring loading, inversion or otherwise; had you done simple tests you would know this.

Post data if you wish your claims to be considered.

My diagram (and now video) shows just what I'm talking about...with your method of tieing the YF. Whether you can get it to happen in a lab when the knot is dressed and set to perfection or not, is not my point.

I got that to happen numerous times just sitting here. If I can make a knot fail in my living room, I'm not gonna hail it as the best knot for tieing in with.

this must be what happened to me last weekend. i got to the top of the climb and it looked as if the knot had flipped over on itself. :shock: i had hung once on the route.
if i hadn't used the follow-through, as i always do, i think that would have been all she wrote. needless to say, i clipped in and tied an 8.

also, it was a brand-new 9.7 rope, it felt stiff and this may have had something to do with it. the day before, i double-checked the seating of the knot. i don't think i did the morning this happened.