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socialclimber


Jun 1, 2006, 11:44 AM
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We let Sharp die - expedition leader
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By JOANNA NORRIS

01 June 2006

Everest expedition leader Russell Brice arrived back in Katmandu from Everest yesterday and learnt of the fierce debate raging over his decision to rule out a rescue of ill-fated British climber David Sharp.

Brice is a veteran guide and runs an Everest guiding operation, Himalayan Experience. He has led expeditions up Everest for more than 16 seasons, although he no longer goes to the summit himself.

Brice said Sharp had no oxygen and was close to death. "There was nothing they could do. It was incredibly hard. We did everything we could."

His decision attracted criticism from some within mountaineering circles.

So far this season 10 people have died on Everest. The tally is the second highest in the peak's mountaineering history after 1996, when 12 people died.

For the full story, www.stuff.co.nz


skibabeage
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Jun 1, 2006, 1:05 PM
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billl7


Jun 1, 2006, 1:11 PM
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Applause for Russel Brice for facing the withering criticism head on.

Edited to delete subject material moved to this thread: Issues of Copyright.


socialclimber


Jun 2, 2006, 7:35 AM
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Re: We let Sharp die - expedition leader [In reply to]
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skibabaege, Ever since you threw all your toys out of the sandpit and stomped off, you have been nothing but pure poison. if you put nearly as much energy into being nice to people rather than constantly spitting venom and shitting on people, you would be a really, really nice person.

If you are actually concerned about issues of copyright, bring it up with site management. It might not be as much fun as grandstanding but at least you will be addressing the issue with the right person.


tradmanclimbs


Jun 2, 2006, 7:49 AM
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Re: We let Sharp die - expedition leader [In reply to]
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Plagurisim in online forums and blogs is the rule, not the exception. get over it and stick to the topic whic in this case is actualy pretty interesting. If the 20+ climbers who let sharp die had pooled their oxegen and other recorces could they have saved him?


Partner phaedrus


Jun 2, 2006, 8:03 AM
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Re: We let Sharp die - expedition leader [In reply to]
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Source cited, and no attempt to claim the article as being original was made... tends to remove it from the definition of plagiarism. Get over it and move on.


karma


Jun 2, 2006, 8:11 AM
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Without being there and understand what the mental and physical state is when at that sort of altitude, I think its impossible for any of us to make a judgement call regarding what should or should not have been done. Good point about pooling resources, but I wonder if it could only have lead to more deaths?

Given all of the trash and waste left on Everest by all the climbing parties, and the possibility that many of the people climbing Everest are not of the proper fitness (mental or physical): Should guiding even be allowed on Everest?


overzealous


Jun 2, 2006, 8:12 AM
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Re: We let Sharp die - expedition leader [In reply to]
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I don't believe I'm getting sucked into this pettiness. But I'd like to point out that there are expections to copyright that the copyright holder has no legal say over.

I doubt that posting this on an internet forum (properly credited) would really qualify as fair use (for education), but it might. In any case the poster was not making a profit on it, or depriving the owner of anything.


tradmanclimbs


Jun 2, 2006, 9:30 AM
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ZZZZZZZZZZZ we got on the one hand a whole bunch of people fit enough to summit everest but not fit enough to mount a rescue and someone is dead. on the other hand we got a few wankers worrying about the legality of quoteing or provideing links to copywrighted material on a internet blog. STFU :roll:


kiwijason


Jun 2, 2006, 9:35 AM
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Back to the climbing side of things.
Not many of the people that are attempting Everest these days are climbers, they are people with the US$25K or more to spend on a "life experience".
They often don't spend every weekend driving 10 hours to climb all day and night then drive back 10 hours to get to work Monday. Do they really have the skills and experience to effect a rescue without putting everyone in danger? Should a guide back at ABC ask clients who are not experienced to attempt a rescue? I have only been to around 6000m but I have to say even at that height everything is hard to do (8500m must be a trick), and if someone suggested I take an easy path my mind would probably agree until I got back to sea level.


rockhound71


Jun 2, 2006, 10:59 AM
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Re: We let Sharp die - expedition leader [In reply to]
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skibabeage wrote
In reply to:
It would appear you're in violation of international copyright by copying and pasting this article verbatim.

WTF!
How the hell does a discussion about leaving a man to die on Everest go to copyright shit?

karma wrote
In reply to:
Without being there and understand what the mental and physical state is when at that sort of altitude, I think its impossible for any of us to make a judgement call regarding what should or should not have been done. Good point about pooling resources, but I wonder if it could only have lead to more deaths?

I agree that we shouldn't make judgments unless we were there or have been in the same situation. Walking in another person's shoes is never as easy as it looks. Right now I would say, I wouldn't have left him, despite the possible cost of losing my life. But currently I'm down here and not at 8500m.

From the article, Brice is a veteran guide (i.e. he should know what he is doing). As a guide, his job is to get his client up and down safely and make the tough calls if things go bad. True, he probably gets a better tip if his client makes it up to the top, but he still has to make the tough call. How many of us have had to make such a decision?


Partner drector


Jun 2, 2006, 11:25 AM
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Re: We let Sharp die - expedition leader [In reply to]
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In reply to:
How the hell does a discussion about leaving a man to die on Everest go to copyright s---?

Because someone else's copyrighted material was posted without their permission.

At least now that it has been posted on a public forum, I won't have to pay a news service, who pays reporters, for that information. I wonder what I will do when they go out of business because they can't seel their product.

But on the climbing side of things, I'd like to give the climbers and guide the benefit of the doubt. There are many situations where a rescue is not possible. One of those is when you are near the top of a very high mountain and can hardly keep yourself alive. the effort of a rescue might easily have killed a rescuer and if the guide says he thought a rescue was not possible then that's the way it was. He knows more about high altitude resuce more than any of use (appologies to the one or two readers who might actually know about these things).

Dave


tradmanclimbs


Jun 2, 2006, 11:29 AM
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Re: We let Sharp die - expedition leader [In reply to]
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How many people disobey orders that they can't moraly support? how many people obey orders that they know are wrong?? Not saying that the orders are right or wrong just pointing out that you still have to live with your own concience and you may not be able to comvince yourself that because you were following orders that you have a clean slate.


tradmanclimbs


Jun 2, 2006, 11:40 AM
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yet rescues have been performed near the top of verry big mountains. Just last week there was a sucessfull rescue?


billl7


Jun 2, 2006, 11:45 AM
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Re: We let Sharp die - expedition leader [In reply to]
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In reply to:
How many people disobey orders that they can't moraly support? how many people obey orders that they know are wrong?? Not saying that the orders are right or wrong just pointing out that you still have to live with your own concience and you may not be able to comvince yourself that because you were following orders that you have a clean slate.

Right. Choosing to not obey, that's Joseph Campbell's "hero". Nobody should demand someone to be that hero (as many do here). That hero lives with the consequences of his choices which can be equally serious/catastrophic. If I were a client on a team then I wouldn't want just anyone to choose the hero's path - even if it were my life that was threatened.

I think of a group of clients and a guide(s) as quite like being in the military where disobeying those in charge is only done under the highest total certainty or total stupidity.

Edit: all of us who weren't up there do not have total certainty.


fitzontherocks


Jun 2, 2006, 2:17 PM
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Re: We let Sharp die - expedition leader [In reply to]
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It's a no-win situation for the survivors/summiters and the victim. Tragic for all. Hillary's comments reflect his own (high) ethical standards. Can't fault him there. You can only agree or disagree with him. I tend to agree. But then, I have no intention of getting that high or that cold. Ever.

Gotta love that rc.com, though. The very first post after the OP was someone with wadded panties over copyright. For your consideration:

"Section 107 [of the U.S. Copyright Act-- title 17, U.S. Code] contains a list of the various purposes for which the reproduction of a particular work may be considered “fair,” such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research."
--http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html

The OP looks and smells to me like news reporting.


dirtineye


Jun 2, 2006, 4:19 PM
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In reply to:

Gotta love that rc.com, though. The very first post after the OP was someone with wadded panties over copyright. For your consideration:

"Section 107 [of the U.S. Copyright Act-- title 17, U.S. Code] contains a list of the various purposes for which the reproduction of a particular work may be considered “fair,” such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research."
--http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl102.html

The OP looks and smells to me like news reporting.



Don't worry about it, Skihag's been mad ever since that house fell on her sister.*


































*see "Wizard of Oz", what happens to the w w o t w's sister!

"Oh we love the old one!" (sung by the flying monkeys, commonly mis-heard as oweo weoooo weo)


ddt


Jun 3, 2006, 9:24 AM
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Re: We let Sharp die - expedition leader [In reply to]
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Heya all,

Rockclimbing.com will not willfully violate the law or infringe upon anyones rights. Unfortunately the topics of copyright, fair use and such are neither black and white, nor consistent across the globe. Despite some arguments that it's really simple, it is in fact not simple, at least not as far as my understanding goes!

We are currently seeking advice to better understand what is legal and what is not in terms of reproducing news stories on this site. In the mean time we will be modifying these articles such that they're excerpts or quotes only, with a link to the full story. If we determine that it's safe to post the whole story (with appropriate credits) we will revert to the way we've been doing it before.

I appreciate the lively debate and the different opinions. Those that have specific complaints or concerns with the way Rockclimbing.com is being managed are welcome to post it in our forums, but I also encourage you to reach out to me directly to get your issue addressed and resolved more efficiently.

Thanks,
DDT


Partner tgreene


Jun 3, 2006, 9:58 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
skibabeage, saying it would "appear you are in violation ...." is not helpful. Now, you or someone needs to post the international copyright rules here to support/discount your claims of violation.

Bill,

Unless this is for your personal edification, that won't be necessary. Copyright law, whether from Timbuktu or South Dakota, is the same across the board. If the word "copyright" appears anywhere near the copy (or photo) in question, that means someone owns the right to either allow or deny another the chance to copy/publish it, but it's usually not accomplished without permissions or some sort of monetary exchange.

This is not a new debate on this website, but rather has been going round and round for years. In spite of copious threads and opinions and research and decisions, the folks who run this gin joint continue to thumb their noses at the rights others have to their intellectual property, be they creator or employer. Regardless, anytime someone pilfers something copyrighted the author/owner of the intellectual property gets screwed.

Most recently, the discussion came up regarding a "stolen photo." You'll note the administrative opinions regarding copyright as it applies to photography.

Another violation.

And text from the agency:

In reply to:
Copyright

1. This Television New Zealand Limited website is protected by copyright. You may print out individual articles or pages for your private use but no form of distribution or making available to the public (whether in print or electronic form) of any of this website's content is permitted.

Yet another blatant violation

And text from AP News:

In reply to:
Copyright 2006 The Associated Press. The information contained in the AP news report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or otherwise distributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press.

I certainly don't understand either the lack of awareness on the part of those involved herein, or the apparent blind eye turned to this matter.

No matter. The penalty for copyright violation, at least of print material, runs around $10,000 per page.
Does anyone else see the irony here..? She goes off on a tirade about Copyright infringement, then immediately proceeds to do the very same thing, by COPYING a snippet of text, direcly from the source website.

I mean really, what are the chances that she had already received written authorization to re-publish that copyrighted statement..? :lol:


tradmanclimbs


Jun 3, 2006, 1:50 PM
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STFU about the plagurisim crap will ya :roll: we are trying to bash the Evrest wankers here :D start your own damn thread if you want to whine about copywright stuff 8^)


obsessiveclimbingdisorder


Jun 3, 2006, 3:57 PM
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I agree that the guide should be given the benefit of the doubt, being near the summit of Everest would take immense physical and psychological ability. I would also like to know the weather conditions that this, and the successful rescue took place in.


xgecko


Jun 3, 2006, 6:05 PM
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I don't buy it...you go that high you are dying (it's called the deathzone for a reason) you go that high without support? well you are dying faster. from all that i have read he was pretty much a gonner before anyone else got to him though he was lower than the Lincoln Hall who was rescued he wasn't responsive at all unlike Hall. Hall was in much better condition after a night on Everest than Sharp was but but then people got to hall 12 hours later not 48 (from what I've read) that Sharp was hanging out in the Death Zone with no assistance (another problem with not being part of a team). Everest is really just an endurance race with death and not a technical mountain (like for instance K2) so it attracts a lot of people who don't belong there unlike most of the other 8K mountains which require mountaineers to summit. So expecting those nubs (non usefull bodies) to pull off a rescue of someone who was almost dead anyway is like expecting a pig to fly...sure it can happen but the pig will likely die in the process


deltav


Jun 3, 2006, 6:22 PM
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"they did everything they could"..."there was nothing we could do"...

Does this make sence to anyone?
Seems assinine to me


socialclimber


Jun 4, 2006, 5:29 AM
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In reply to:
"they did everything they could"..."there was nothing we could do"...

Does this make sense to anyone?
Seems assinine to me

As you quoted it has been paraphrased. You need to hit the link to read the complete phrase. But to be honest, the complete phrase doesn't make much sense either.


thegreytradster


Jun 4, 2006, 6:59 PM
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The thing that I can't get over is that other than one sherpa no one thought to at least stop and comfort him in his last moments. True, it may have been a lost cause, but at least as described there was an inhumane lack of compassion. What must it have been like to wait out your last moments watching an unconcerned parade pass on the way to the summit?


Ski, Buy some bran flakes. Have a bowl every morning for a week and I'm sure you will feel better.

Here's a guy with a REAL! copyright issue!


http://www.michaelyon-online.com/wp/dishonor.htm

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