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Partner j_ung


Jun 7, 2006, 6:23 AM
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Welcome to the Lab!
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A while back I started a thread to serve as a clearinghouse for information on climbing gear tests. I called it Online Climbing Safety Test Results. “RC.com users often post online test results to prove or disprove points in safety-related threads,” I reasoned. “These tests are all over the Internet and usually a Google search will yield results, but not always.”

Now after much discussion with Sterling Rope’s Jim Ewing and the other RC.com managers and mods, we’ve decided to open a whole forum dedicated solely to climbing safety tests: The Lab. Many questions were answered in the course of said discussions. Why wouldn’t we just put such threads in Gear Heads? Would we allow threads like the Toy Biner Test? Would we be encouraging unsafe behavior in the name of science? How crazy will the signal to noise ratio be? Just what types of testing should we include? And just what is really the overall goal of this thing?

I’ll tackle the last question first…

What’s the goal of this forum?
The Lab exists to serve as a clearinghouse for any and all serious climbing safety test information (not limited to gear testing). Currently, no such clearing house exists, at least, not like this. By putting all of this stuff into one forum, we get a searchable database devoted solely to this topic – a one-stop shop, so to speak – to which average users like you can contribute in an open discussion.

Why not just put such threads in Gear Heads?
And lose them amongst the what-shoe-should-I-buy and what-should-my-rack-contain threads? That wouldn’t even come close to meeting the prime objective (see above). Besides, this isn’t just for gear testing. Let’s say some enterprising young grad student writes a thesis on altitude sickness and includes objective data. Welcome home, thread.

What about joke threads like the Toy Biner Test?
Sorry, no. While we all enjoy a good joke and a sense of humor will be welcome in this forum, its goal is to promote safety, not laughs.

Doesn’t this just encourage unsafe behavior in the name of science?
Only in the sense that this entire website encourages unsafe behavior in the name fun! The fact of the matter is that the sum total of the world’s climbing know-how consists of hard knowledge backed up by objective experimentation AND assumptions and speculations that circulate long enough to be mistaken for fact. I cite the ADT and EDK as examples. Pretending that everything we think we know is correct will not encourage safety. In fact, the opposite is true.

Obviously, if users want to conduct their own tests, we highly encourage them to post here first to run their ideas by the community. Becoming one’s own crash-test dummy… now that would be stoopit.

How will we limit the signal to noise ratio?
By moderating this forum actively. Much like Injuries & Accidents, we intend step in when necessary. Rest assured, we will continue our newest policy of transparency in any moderation we undertake. You’ll know what happens and why.

What, precisely, will be included in this forum?
• Threads that direct us to test results that already exist on the web. These should be in the form of a quicky quote or two and a link to the website. Please do not copy and paste wholesale.
• Threads posted by gear makers (and others with real live lab equipment) to highlight safety issues.
• Question by users that can be answered with a little lab work (no guarantees a gear maker will step up).
• Home testing done by users to compare like equipment or techniques.
• Proposals for tests, posted for feedback before beginning.
• Peer review of testing methods and data.
• General questions regarding scientific method and how it applies to climbing experimentation.

There may be more, but that’s all I can think up off the top of my head.

In conclusion, we don’t expect this forum to always contain only the most accurate information. But I do expect it to be a place where ensuing discussion will help all of us understand what the most accurate information might be, why or why not it isn’t accurate and how to go about getting the most comprehensive objective, data-backed answers to safety-related questions we can find.

FYI: The Lab resides in the Climbing Specialty forum section. And just so there's no confusion, this is a moderated forum. By posting in the Lab, all users agree to keep their tone respectful to each other and to abide by the RC.com Terms of Service.

(This post was edited by j_ung on Dec 1, 2008, 1:10 PM)


Partner j_ung


Jun 8, 2006, 5:19 AM
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Bumperoo. I'm taking questions if anybody has any. I don't expect this to be a highly active forum, considering its intended content. FYI: I just moved the sliding X thread in here.


bill413


Jun 8, 2006, 6:49 AM
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J - One question/suggestion - would product recalls be posted in here also? Not necessarily the whole discussion / angst / speculation (a la a certain camming device) but the facts themselves?

A nice idea for what I hope is a useful section!


reg


Jun 8, 2006, 6:50 AM
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i got one for ya - probably elementary but i was lookin a picture and the movie at omega pacific about link cams and was wondering if they are ment to cover every mm of range (2.51 - .96) in other words at some position of retraction/expansion are they weak?


Partner tattooed_climber


Jun 8, 2006, 8:33 AM
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Wow...killer sweet idea for a forum J_ung (or whom ever's brain child)

i may be posting up in here a bit soon...since i'm becoming a machinist, and i currently have full access to a Heat treatment and tempering lab, brazing, not to mention basic machinist equipment (milling machines, lathes, precision grinders, etc, etc.)...AND my good friend (who's also a climber) who works at a wire rope company just got a pull-tester

are all those cch testing threads gonna get moved into here or you not wanting to re-awaken them? :lol:


overlord


Jun 8, 2006, 8:56 AM
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sweet. i was actually toying with the idea about going through the GH forums during summer rainy days and making a collection of all safety links.

anyway, this is even better and very welcome.


Partner j_ung


Jun 8, 2006, 12:34 PM
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In reply to:
J - One question/suggestion - would product recalls be posted in here also? Not necessarily the whole discussion / angst / speculation (a la a certain camming device) but the facts themselves?

A nice idea for what I hope is a useful section!

I think... probably not initially. Unless they evolve into a discussion of actual test data, Gear Heads will probably be their home.


Partner j_ung


Jun 8, 2006, 12:37 PM
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In reply to:
i got one for ya - probably elementary but i was lookin a picture and the movie at omega pacific about link cams and was wondering if they are ment to cover every mm of range (2.51 - .96) in other words at some position of retraction/expansion are they weak?

Start the thread, reg! If we don't get an answer right away, I'll email OP and see what they have to say.

(Although, I assume that if the cam angle remains constant (it should) then the only variable on the cam side of the equation will be spring tension, which more affects time until the unit is fully engaged time, than force.)

:)


Partner j_ung


Jun 8, 2006, 12:43 PM
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In reply to:
Wow...killer sweet idea for a forum J_ung (or whom ever's brain child)

i may be posting up in here a bit soon...since i'm becoming a machinist, and i currently have full access to a Heat treatment and tempering lab, brazing, not to mention basic machinist equipment (milling machines, lathes, precision grinders, etc, etc.)...AND my good friend (who's also a climber) who works at a wire rope company just got a pull-tester

are all those cch testing threads gonna get moved into here or you not wanting to re-awaken them? :lol:

I've always wanted something like this, but had long since settled for the OCSTR thread. Then, one day while all those daisy-chain-death-trick threads were active, Jim Ewing from Sterling emailed me with this idea. I tweaked it a little to include user-generated content and non-gear-related testing and presto. But even the name, The Lab, was his idea. Thanks Jim!


Partner j_ung


Jun 8, 2006, 12:44 PM
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Oh, and NO on the CCH threads. Just 'cause. :)


Partner j_ung


Jun 8, 2006, 12:45 PM
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In reply to:
sweet. i was actually toying with the idea about going through the GH forums during summer rainy days and making a collection of all safety links.

anyway, this is even better and very welcome.

Rasto, old buddy, you are more than welcome to do so, anyway. PM me links to any thread you think should be here. If I or another Lab mod agrees, we'll do the deed.


scrapedape


Jun 9, 2006, 8:08 AM
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I think this is an absolutely excellent idea for a forum, and long overdue. Well done rc.com, and thanks Jim for the idea.


sterlingjim


Jun 10, 2006, 9:42 AM
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Well COOL! I’m glad to see people are psyched about this forum. My hope is this forum will be a good resource for people to share information about tests they’ve done, formal or not, backyard or laboratory. I was amazed at how much traffic the cordelette and sliding x threads received and thought there should be a forum dedicated to such things. I also hope this forum will generate some good ideas for tests or experiments that will contribute to climber safety. Perhaps it will also cool off my email box a little not that people aren’t welcome to email me directly with questions about rope.

Cheers,
Jim

ps: I know it's against rc.com policy but I do hope threads here will be moderated in such a way to keep the threads on topic and not turn into flame wars.


dirtineye


Jun 10, 2006, 3:41 PM
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NO FLAME WARS????

WTF good will it be then?

Hmmmph.

BUT good job, and high time for it.

Now if only sterlingjim and that Curt guy will behave....


fenix83
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Jun 14, 2006, 10:10 AM
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In reply to:
Now if only sterlingjim and that Curt guy will behave....

Now if that isn't the pot calling the kettle black! :lol:

I've said it before and I'll say it again, great idea Jim, great work Jay. You are a credit to out community and our staff.

-F


knudenoggin


Jun 25, 2006, 3:37 PM
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In reply to:
Well COOL! I’m glad to see people are psyched about this forum. My hope is this forum will be a good resource for people to share information about tests they’ve done, formal or not, backyard or laboratory. I was amazed at how much traffic the cordelette and sliding x threads received and thought there should be a forum dedicated to such things.
I concur in the thanks for this Lab forum,
but disagree that it's the place for the very threads that motivated you to
conceive it (!): rather, I think that such threads as those, and the ones on
knots & anchors, would better fall under a Rigging forum (and not under
GearHeads or Technique & Training).

*knudeNoggin*


Partner epoch
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Feb 13, 2008, 4:00 PM
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I re-stickied this FAQ. If there are any questions or issues the moderator list is at the bottom this forum.

Cheers and happy testing.

Jay


Partner j_ung


Feb 14, 2008, 10:27 AM
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epoch wrote:
I re-stickied this FAQ. If there are any questions or issues the moderator list is at the bottom this forum.

Cheers and happy testing.

Jay

Edited the OP to update the TOS link.


stymingersfink


Apr 17, 2008, 9:19 PM
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Re: [j_ung] FAQ -- Welcome to the Lab! [In reply to]
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j_ung wrote:
What about joke threads like the Toy Biner Test?
Sorry, no. While we all enjoy a good joke and a sense of humor will be welcome in this forum, its goal is to promote safety, not laughs.
So... remind me again why you even let Major Sorebutt even in this forum?


Partner j_ung


Apr 18, 2008, 5:12 AM
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I don't let him in anywhere. Wink


majid_sabet


Apr 18, 2008, 4:11 PM
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when was the last time miss stymingersfink actually contributed anything directly to RC LAB. I mean performed any type of testing on his own and posted his results and discovery in LAB?

so far

none


stymingersfink


Apr 21, 2008, 12:35 PM
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majid_sabet wrote:
when was the last time miss stymingersfink actually contributed anything directly useful to RC LAB. I mean performed any type of testing on his own and posted his results and discovery in LAB?

so far

none
fixed that for ya. Wink

oh, and pot? this is kettle...


Partner epoch
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Dec 2, 2008, 6:36 AM
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Just moving this to the #1 position in the forum.

[Don't mind me]


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