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cjsimpso
Jul 6, 2006, 5:20 PM
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In reply to: There is actually a pecking order between nut, cam and tricam, and different suituations call for different pieces, but that is for another thread.
That other thread... http://www.rockclimbing.com/topic/115838
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jt512
Jul 6, 2006, 6:42 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: ..... a nut for your first piece is usually not a good idea, although I have done it if it is the best piece to protect a move. :shock: :wtf: Your statement makes no sense... ANY pro that can be placed and is BOMBER is good for ANY piece. I personally try to sink a nut, tricam, and when carrying them, hexes as my first piece. It can save you to have that cam for later. If you lack confidence in a nut placed as your first piece, then you may have confidence placing them at all??? Pharmboy, good job on your first lead. Take the skills learned in the Anchor class and apply them to leading. Remember that you want to orientate ANY gear in the direction of possible loading. Extend it if needed, to minimize possible walking or reorientation. And don't worry about placing a nut as your first piece. If it were an RP that may be another story. Alas, a Screamer or two is also a good investment. Great for that marginal piece. :wink: You are clueless and dangerous. Jay, I'm wondering about your "clueless and dangerous" comment.
He is clueless and dangerous for two reasons. The first is that he is leading trad, but doesn't know that the first piece should be multi-directional whenever possible. The reasons for this have been explained well by saxfiend and blueeyedclimber; they are also explained in standard beginning climbing texts, such as How to Climb by John Long. Some climbers believe that if the belayer is positioned close enough to the wall that the bottom piece will not be subjected to upward or outward forces in a fall onto a higher piece, but they'll never convince me of it. I have seen first-piece cams rotate upward in response to a fall when the belayer was tightly anchored to the wall.
The other reason that he is clueless and dangerous is that he believes, and is willing to suggest to another beginner, that the skills learned in an anchor-building class can be tranferred to placing protectoin on lead. They can't; they are immensely different skills, the fundamentals of which are learned sequentially over several days in well-designed climbing courses.
There are several good ways to learn to lead trad, but trial and error isn't one of them.
Jay
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losbill
Jul 6, 2006, 8:34 PM
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Rich, congratulations on your first lead. Thanks for sharing your thrill of "entering the realm of trad"! Prompted my to enjoy thinking about the thrill and excitement of my first lead.
Also congratulations on not getting banged up. I was not as fortunate on my first fall.
Regarding "opinions", there are opinions in trad but there are also some flat out truths and basic principles. You are smart guy and will soon be able to distinquish which is which for yourself. In the meantime you are getting some excellent advice from some folks; Paulraphael, Dirt, Worm and Josh in particular.
You will learn a lot on Sunday. See you then.
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jt512
Jul 7, 2006, 5:31 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: ......the skills learned in an anchor-building class can be tranferred to placing protectoin on lead. They can't; they are immensely different skills, the fundamentals of which are learned sequentially over several days in well-designed climbing courses. Just curious as to how you believe that placing gear for an anchor is completely different from placing gear while leading?
That question is just too fucking stupid for me to waste time answering.
In reply to: A well slotted nut will hold in directions greater than 1 degree in a fall.
A well-slotted nut will not be reliable against an upward pull. Nuts are not multi-directional pieces.
Jay
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epoch
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Jul 7, 2006, 5:52 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: ......the skills learned in an anchor-building class can be tranferred to placing protectoin on lead. They can't; they are immensely different skills, the fundamentals of which are learned sequentially over several days in well-designed climbing courses. Just curious as to how you believe that placing gear for an anchor is completely different from placing gear while leading? That question is just too f---ing stupid for me to waste time answering. In reply to: A well slotted nut will hold in directions greater than 1 degree in a fall. A well-slotted nut will not be reliable against an upward pull. Nuts are not multi-directional pieces. Jay
(I've had a cam or two blow out because they rotated, and they were placed very securly for a downward pull. It was when I fell on a roof that they rotated and came out. I was held by my gear immediately below me.)
It all depends.
Pins and bolts (maybe pins) are just about it, unless you can state otherwise.
Get off your eletist throne..... And I'm gonna die :roll: . To each thier own. Refer to the comment that you should place gear in the anticipated direction of pull. If you need two, then place two. I'll wait until I am there to make a blind ignorant statement such as yours. But placing a nut (as to OP stated) as your first piece is arguably OK to do.
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reg
Jul 7, 2006, 7:07 PM
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In reply to: The second issue, and more important one, is what to place for your FIRST piece. THe first piece not only protects the early moves of a climb, it also is responsible for keeping the rope in line so as not to zipper pieces above it, which is an extremely dangerous situation. Where a belayer stands is also important in this regard. If your first piece is not multidirectional, which a nut most of the time is not, an outward or upward pull could pull a nut out, causing a chain reaction from one piece to another. A nut CAN be a good first piece and I have done it on occasion, but you need to know when it is ok, and it is always good to oppose it if possible. Josh
PHARMBOY read above - this IS very important and IMHO the basses for this discussion!
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epoch
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Jul 7, 2006, 7:27 PM
Post #33 of 59
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Oh...
While it is on my mind... There are many, many, many climbs where it is impossible to place a piece in opposition as your first piece, Such as pocketed routes, or small vertical cracks.
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couchwarrior
Jul 7, 2006, 7:27 PM
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This thread is why I love climbing - the anarchy! Half the posters are saying "NEVER place a nut first" and the rest are saying "It's FINE to place a nut first!" We can't agree on anything.
Corn on the cob is good, isn't it?
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scrapedape
Jul 7, 2006, 7:36 PM
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In reply to: This thread is why I love climbing - the anarchy! Half the posters are saying "NEVER place a nut first" and the rest are saying "It's FINE to place a nut first!" We can't agree on anything. Corn on the cob is good, isn't it?
STFU n00b!
Creamed corn is the only way.
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epoch
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Jul 7, 2006, 7:51 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: This thread is why I love climbing - the anarchy! Half the posters are saying "NEVER place a nut first" and the rest are saying "It's FINE to place a nut first!" We can't agree on anything. Corn on the cob is good, isn't it? STFU n00b! Creamed corn is the only way.
Corn is useless, don't bother...
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pharmboy
Jul 7, 2006, 8:01 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: This thread is why I love climbing - the anarchy! Half the posters are saying "NEVER place a nut first" and the rest are saying "It's FINE to place a nut first!" We can't agree on anything. Corn on the cob is good, isn't it? STFU n00b! Creamed corn is the only way. Corn is useless, don't bother...
I was told that those BIG time Russian climbers use corn cobs as chock stones??? So I shouldn't bother saving those cobs from our family gatherings? This trad stuff is soooo confusing, I'm going back to needle point. Anyone interested in a hand-sewn chalk bag? :lol:
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dirtineye
Jul 7, 2006, 8:36 PM
Post #38 of 59
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In reply to: Oh... While it is on my mind... There are many, many, many climbs where it is impossible to place a piece in opposition as your first piece, Such as pocketed routes, or small vertical cracks.
So, you really think it is impossible to place two pieces in opposition in a small vertical crack?
Or from one pocket to another?
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jt512
Jul 7, 2006, 8:59 PM
Post #39 of 59
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In reply to: Cams aren't multidirectional either...
You're really an idiot.
Jay
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jt512
Jul 7, 2006, 9:09 PM
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In reply to: This thread is why I love climbing - the anarchy! Half the posters are saying "NEVER place a nut first" and the rest are saying "It's FINE to place a nut first!" We can't agree on anything.
This is what's wrong with the beginner's forum. The beginners have no way to judge who knows what they are talking about and who doesn't.
Jay
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cracklover
Jul 7, 2006, 9:31 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: This thread is why I love climbing - the anarchy! Half the posters are saying "NEVER place a nut first" and the rest are saying "It's FINE to place a nut first!" We can't agree on anything. This is what's wrong with the beginner's forum. The beginners have no way to judge who knows what they are talking about and who doesn't. Jay
With all due respect, Jay, I disagree. Anyone with a good head on their shoulders can tell the difference.
In reply to: I'm a new climber and a very new leader (less than 12 leads) so I'm interested in the information posted on this thread. Jay, I'm wondering about your "clueless and dangerous" comment. I just read the article in the April 2006 Climbing magazine by Mark Synnott, page 66, Tech Tips Trad - Rack Managment. He has a paragraph titled Nut first, cam later. He suggests placing a nut as the first peice of protection on climbs where one doesn't know what to expect.
Cindy - I'm quite curious - can you give a synopsis of Synott's argument? I'm quite curious. I suspect there's something more than meets the eye, here.
As a general rule, absolutely - getting a first or second piece that can handle an upward/outward pull is important. But general rules must get broken when other considerations are more important in certain specific situations. I suspect that's what's going on in Mr. Synott's article.
GO
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dirtineye
Jul 7, 2006, 9:50 PM
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LOL, rack management!!
The best rack management is to drag as much gear as you can up to the crux, then hang the stuff you won't be needing for the rest of the pitch for the second.
THAT is good rack management, and it helps the second get a better appreciation of how easy they have it most of the time.
There, you just heard one of the dirty secrets of trad climbing.
THey'll probably come take away my trad decoder ring for this.
REMEMBER, too much is ALWAYS better than not enough.
This applies to gear placement very well.
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losbill
Jul 7, 2006, 11:09 PM
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Notch and Pharmboy on second thought and Dirt's good advice I'm bringing my rack on Sunday as well. Get ready to haul about 80 pounds of stuff up to the ridge!!!! Think Sherpas!
Notch better bring the big boy pack for the approach!!!
And Pharmboy you show up with any damn corn cobs you're going to find yourself soloing the bastard!!!!
I have been way too easy on my seconds way too long!!! I feel like a new man. Thanks Dirt!!!!
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jt512
Jul 7, 2006, 11:10 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: This thread is why I love climbing - the anarchy! Half the posters are saying "NEVER place a nut first" and the rest are saying "It's FINE to place a nut first!" We can't agree on anything. This is what's wrong with the beginner's forum. The beginners have no way to judge who knows what they are talking about and who doesn't. Jay With all due respect, Jay, I disagree. Anyone with a good head on their shoulders can tell the difference.
Should that comment upset couchwarrior?
Jay
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ambler
Jul 8, 2006, 1:37 AM
Post #45 of 59
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In reply to: In reply to: Jay, I'm wondering about your "clueless and dangerous" comment. I just read the article in the April 2006 Climbing magazine by Mark Synnott, page 66, Tech Tips Trad - Rack Managment. He has a paragraph titled Nut first, cam later. He suggests placing a nut as the first peice of protection on climbs where one doesn't know what to expect. Cindy - I'm quite curious - can you give a synopsis of Synott's argument? I'm quite curious. I suspect there's something more than meets the eye, here. As a general rule, absolutely - getting a first or second piece that can handle an upward/outward pull is important. But general rules must get broken when other considerations are more important in certain specific situations. I suspect that's what's going on in Mr. Synott's article.
This advice seems less relevant for Kiddie Crack or other familiar, short climbs. Adventure climbing, on the other hand, more often brings trade-offs between different kinds of safety.
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brutusofwyde
Jul 8, 2006, 1:53 AM
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Let me see if I can contribute in any meaningful way to this thread, recapping some points and adding others.
First --
Your first placement when starting a lead off the deck, all other things being equal, should be a multi-directional placement, able to resist loading in all directions in which it might reasonably be loaded.
Come to think of it, additionally, whenever the rope changes direction significantly, such as when starting and ending a traverse on lead, or when placing multiple pieces in line along a horizontal traverse where the pieces must protect both the leader and the follower (direction of loading can change up to 90 degrees depending on whether the leader or second falls) these loading directions must be taken into account and your placements constructed accordingly.
Second:
If that first piece on an upward lead is solidly multi-directional, able to resist outward and upward forces as well as downward, that piece can serve to protect subsequent pieces from outward and upward loading (which results in back-zippering.) If so protected, the subsequent pieces can often then be placed to resist only downward loading from the leader fall, given no unusual changes in rope direction thereafter.
Third:
No particular clean climbing piece is inherently multi-directional. Even well-placed pitons and bolts have stronger and weaker axes, ranging from shear to pullout. Cams have the ability to sometimes rotate and hold, however trusting your life to this generalization rather than to construct each placement based on the rock, the equipment available to you, and the equipment you may need later in the pitch, is foolhardy. Keyhole nut placements, though rare in many kinds of rock, can be very resistant to multi-directional loading. Every placement is unique. That said, when possible a properly constructed placement incorporating opposition is an extremely valuable and powerful tool in resisting multi-directional loading. Sometimes this kind of placement is the only thing that will work safely, be it constructed of cams, hexes, nuts or a combination.
Fourth:
Given equally spaced pieces and all other factors being equal, protection placed at the start of a pitch will see far higher forces if they catch a fall than pieces placed later in a pitch.
Fifth:
When the opportunity presents itself, it is a good idea to double up pieces before obvious cruxes, before obvious runouts, where the pro is marginal, and in other situations where either the likelyhood of a fall is high or where the consequences of falling are more serious. It may also make sense to double up on pro after long runouts, where the failure of a single piece may result in extreme consequences. If concerned about "rationing" pieces, take into account that 1) if you fall and die, you won't need the rest of the rack anyways; 2) if you're looking at a runout ahead, the runout itself will ration your pieces; and 3) if you've just finished a runout, you have some extras that you would have otherwise placed. That said, always maintain an awareness of what is on your rack, what you may need for the rest of the pitch (including the belay anchors) and look for the opportunity to place pieces accordingly.
Sixth:
Always be aware of the potential consequences of a fall. Many many times in Trad climbing, whether just stepping off of a spacious ledge onto a crux, seconding a traverse with the protection a long ways away, finding yourself in difficulty with poor to non-existant protection, or running it out on easy ground, you are, in effect, soloing. Learn to recognize these situations and climb accordingly.
Seventh:
Trad is a different beast than sport. The ability to place effective protection, sometimes when in strenuous, scary, or otherwise stressful situations, is a completely different skill than the ability to climb hard technical moves, sometimes when in strenuous, scary, or otherwise stressful situations. Competent, safe traditional climbing requires a high degree of skill in both of these areas. Never challenge yourself in both areas at once. And be aware that poor routefinding can quickly put you over your head in both.
Eighth:
Routefinding is more than following dotted lines in a guidebook. It is a multifaceted skill ranging from being able to "read" the rock in terms of protection, rest stances, hard moves, probable ratings, and downclimbing opportunities; to being able to envision the entire route including the descent, from a distance, and translate that into competent decisions when presented with the limited, extremely foreshortened view when actually climbing the route.
Ninth:
Trad falls, especially when learning the ropes and climbing easier routes, are particularly dangerous, due to the nature of the terrain typically found on easier routes. Even good protection is no guarantee of injury-free falls with ledges and footholds to flip you upside-down or sprain or break an ankle on low-angle terrain. (Nearly every year, someone breaks an ankle on Nutcracker in Yosemite.) Traversing, pendulum falls for both the leader and the second are more common on trad terrain, develop as much momentum as vertical falls, and expose vital organs to impact. Add to all of this, inexperience at placing gear, and the rule "the leader must not fall" is a good policy to live by, particularly in the first year or two.
hth,
Brutus of Wyde
Old Climbers' Home
Oakland, California
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cindylou
Jul 8, 2006, 2:09 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Jay, I'm wondering about your "clueless and dangerous" comment. I just read the article in the April 2006 Climbing magazine by Mark Synnott, page 66, Tech Tips Trad - Rack Managment. He has a paragraph titled Nut first, cam later. He suggests placing a nut as the first peice of protection on climbs where one doesn't know what to expect. Cindy - I'm quite curious - can you give a synopsis of Synott's argument? I'm quite curious. I suspect there's something more than meets the eye, here. As a general rule, absolutely - getting a first or second piece that can handle an upward/outward pull is important. But general rules must get broken when other considerations are more important in certain specific situations. I suspect that's what's going on in Mr. Synott's article. Synnott's "Nut first, cam later" advice refers to pitches where you can see the first part of the lead but don't know what to expect higher up. By using nuts early, wherever possible, we might save cams for later in case there is a crack that will not take nuts or any of the remaining cams. This advice seems less relevant for Kiddie Crack or other familiar, short climbs. Adventure climbing, on the other hand, more often brings trade-offs between different kinds of safety.
Thanks Ambler - That's the gist of the paragraph. It doesn't sound like Kiddie Crack fits the type of climb he was referring to.
Edited to add: Thanks for showing me that anchor Gabe. I've been spreading the anchor love here in CO.
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c4c
Jul 8, 2006, 2:34 AM
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In reply to: Corn on the cob is good, isn't it?
Corn is about the most worthless food out there. Its hard to digest and has very little nutritional benefits. Besides it gets stuck in my teeth :D
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blueeyedclimber
Jul 8, 2006, 3:04 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Let me see if I can contribute in any meaningful way to this thread, recapping some points and adding others. OMFG! Thank you... I wish I could rate today. :x
Yes, will someone please give Mr. Wyde a trophy. I think he needs to know we appreciate him. Good stuff, Brutus!
Josh
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