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sky7high


Aug 15, 2006, 6:35 PM
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Runner as pro?
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So, I've been reading some books, and one says that the water knot on a runner or cordalette can be used as pro in desperate circumstances.
I've been thinking if it would be ok to rap off when I can't reach the summit but need to get down...

So anyway, I'll let the court of public opinion decide.


veganboyjosh


Aug 15, 2006, 6:41 PM
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sometimes i like to pretend my life is worth more than a 4 X 29 cents.


sbaclimber


Aug 15, 2006, 6:42 PM
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"public opinion" is fickle, and "desperate circumstances" is very relative.

Look up the use of knots and slings for protection in areas like the Elbsandsteingebirge. Other than what bolts are there, that is the only protection you are allowed to use.

So, in answer to your question. Sure, if you know what you are doing, go for it!


ccard257


Aug 15, 2006, 6:43 PM
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you wouldn't be the first and you won't be the last, but probably not the most recomended thing to do

....now two slings with water knots...bomber :lol:


Partner coldclimb


Aug 15, 2006, 6:48 PM
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I've done it and seen it done more than a few times. Just use your head, if it's done right it's perfectly bomber.


sky7high


Aug 15, 2006, 6:54 PM
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In reply to:
sometimes i like to pretend my life is worth more than a 4 X 29 cents.
Actually, I read somewhere else that if you're priced by your raw materials, you're worth about 2.30 bucks.

Anyway, coldclimb, could you give me some advice as to how to make them bomber? will they shear? etc.

Thanks to all for your replies


veganboyjosh


Aug 15, 2006, 7:03 PM
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In reply to:
sometimes i like to pretend my life is worth more than a 4 X 29 cents.
Actually, I read somewhere else that if you're priced by your raw materials, you're worth about 2.30 bucks.

wow. much better than i thought...who should i see about this? do i get cash, or a check, i wonder?

In reply to:
Anyway, coldclimb, could you give me some advice as to how to make them bomber? will they shear? etc.

practice. go find some cracky places low to the ground, tie off some knots, and practice the shit out of placing them. obviously don't rely on them for rapping or for pro until you know wtf you're doing.

check out the place sbaclimber mentioned. using metal pro is verboten, so alot of climbers use knots and slings as pro on a regular basis. there's also some other threads about this, altho i dunno what you'd search for...


vegastradguy


Aug 15, 2006, 7:17 PM
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wait- you guys use metal stoppers???


Partner coldclimb


Aug 15, 2006, 7:51 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
sometimes i like to pretend my life is worth more than a 4 X 29 cents.
Actually, I read somewhere else that if you're priced by your raw materials, you're worth about 2.30 bucks.

Anyway, coldclimb, could you give me some advice as to how to make them bomber? will they shear? etc.

Thanks to all for your replies

Just use your head about it. Obviously you don't want to place a runner where it will run over an edge or be wedged against something sharp, but if you find yourself a nice smooth sided constriction the right size and you don't happen to have a real nut on you, a knot will work fine. I have passed knots on climbs that were cut or broken somehow and fixed, so that does happen, but I have also rapped from knots as you suggest in your original post to get off climbs, and had no problems.


Partner j_ung


Aug 16, 2006, 7:43 AM
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There's evidence to suggest that, in soft rock, knotted slings may actually be safe than metal chocks.

http://www.joergbrutscher.homepage.t-online.de/knotene.htm


keithlester
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Aug 16, 2006, 8:20 AM
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I have used a rope sling tied with a three-turn blood-knot for pro in a notch with a steep taper. It felt bomber, but I never did abseil off one. I havent used tape slings with water knots for this purpose, but I guess it could be done. I would need to be out of regular gear before I trusted that for an abseil though. Plenty of other old trad climbers will be able to tell you more about using tied rope slings for gear.


reg


Aug 16, 2006, 9:14 AM
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i'm not 100% sure of this but my gut tells me an in-line knot like a fish or water or re-traced 8 would not be as good as a say....an 8 tied in the standing ends of the tape or one end of a sling - so that the loop extending out of the crack has both pieces of the tape/runner coming away from the knot in close proximity to each other as in a regular nut - with cabels running parelle away form the nut.
also if you don't see rings or a leaver biner on the tape/runner don't re-use it - there's been a rope pulled through it and damage has occured.


dirtineye


Aug 16, 2006, 9:32 AM
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Thank you for reminding me why I stopped caring about the incessant crapola that pervades this site.


stymingersfink


Aug 16, 2006, 12:09 PM
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In reply to:
Thank you for reminding me why I stopped caring about the incessant crapola that pervades this site.

Dirt. While adding to the cricitcal mass of the incessant crapola in an attempt to initiate a fussion reaction

YEA!


Partner j_ung


Aug 16, 2006, 12:44 PM
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In reply to:
Thank you for reminding me why I stopped caring about the incessant crapola that pervades this site.

Thank you for returning the favor.


veganboyjosh


Aug 16, 2006, 1:09 PM
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Thank you for reminding me why I stopped caring about the incessant crapola that pervades this site.

this from someone with a daily average of 4.5 posts since he's been here.


havard


Aug 16, 2006, 1:14 PM
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Does anyone have additional links to runners/knotted slings as pro resources? I found this very interesting..


c4c


Aug 16, 2006, 1:27 PM
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its better than an old 1/4" bolt with a home-made hanger


fng


Aug 16, 2006, 2:34 PM
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The knot I would use first would prob be a 'monkey's fist'(aka monkey's head) knot. Very bomber and I would have no prob using it in a pinch. The only prob is that you would not be able to tie one while climbing unless you had a really solid rest spot or were getting ready to rap and had both hands free. There are also a lot of other knots out there that would be affective in diff situations. Run an internet search for climbing knots and you will get sites with lists and diagrams for hundreds of knots.


sky7high


Aug 16, 2006, 6:02 PM
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In reply to:
Thank you for reminding me why I stopped caring about the incessant crapola that pervades this site.

Dude, it's just a question damnit, if you really want to stop reading "crapola", stop writing it

In reply to:
its better than an old 1/4" bolt with a home-made hanger

That's for sure, but I think I'll still prefer a 10kn nut than this, unless I'm bailing of course. About the sandstone thing, it makes a great deal of sense, maybe I'll experiment a bit.


stymingersfink


Aug 16, 2006, 6:41 PM
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there's much to be said for experimentation. That said, don't be dumb about it.

One method i've employed outside of aid climbing, (not the best way either) would be:

While on TR, place the piece, clip with runner of length (x), provide enough slack in the TR to fall directly on it the peice of pro, then do so when the piece is at your waist (or feet, if you're into punishing yourself).

Needless to say, nylon slings are a little more forgiving than spectra, and even better would be a section of dynamic climbing rope.

In reply to:
Dude, it's just a question damnit, if you really want to stop reading "crapola", stop writing it
:lol:


sbaclimber


Aug 16, 2006, 6:51 PM
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While on TR, place the piece, clip with runner of length (x), provide enough slack in the TR to fall directly on it the peice of pro, then do so when the piece is at your waist (or feet, if you're into punishing yourself).
Not a good idea! Chances are, the equipment will probably take it, but your spine and internal organs are not going to like you for this. There is a reason why the ropes you use to catch a fall are dynamic!
Worst case scenario is your harness can't take it, and the very thing that is supposed to keep you from cratering blows apart! :shock:

In reply to:
That said, don't be dumb about it.
That right there is the only advice you should take from the above post :wink:

Edit, yes, the dynamic rope suggestion is 'better', but a really short section has about as much stretch as a nylon sling, i.e. not much.


veganboyjosh


Aug 16, 2006, 6:58 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
While on TR, place the piece, clip with runner of length (x), provide enough slack in the TR to fall directly on it the peice of pro, then do so when the piece is at your waist (or feet, if you're into punishing yourself).
Not a good idea! Chances are, the equipment will probably take it, but your spine and internal organs are not going to like you for this. There is a reason why the ropes you use to catch a fall are dynamic!
Worst case scenario is your harness can't take it, and the very thing that is supposed to keep you from cratering blows apart! :shock:

i think sba climber meant to do this while on toprope, but also with a lead rope...at least, i hope that's what s/he meant. i still wouldn't advise taking such a fall...i like my kidneys too much...


sbaclimber


Aug 16, 2006, 7:13 PM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
In reply to:
While on TR, place the piece, clip with runner of length (x), provide enough slack in the TR to fall directly on it the peice of pro, then do so when the piece is at your waist (or feet, if you're into punishing yourself).
Not a good idea! Chances are, the equipment will probably take it, but your spine and internal organs are not going to like you for this. There is a reason why the ropes you use to catch a fall are dynamic!
Worst case scenario is your harness can't take it, and the very thing that is supposed to keep you from cratering blows apart! :shock:

i think sba climber meant to do this while on toprope, but also with a lead rope...at least, i hope that's what s/he meant. i still wouldn't advise taking such a fall...i like my kidneys too much...
No, actually I meant exactly what you did. Falling while clipped directly to a piece of pro (with a runner, as stymingersfink suggested) is a very bad idea!

Edit, the harness comment probably confused you. What I was pointing out there was, if you are on toprope and clipped directly to a piece, being on toprope will only keep you from falling to the ground, when something blows, if your harness isn't what blows.

If your harness is what blows, then you are stuffed no matter what. That is what I was trying to say.


Partner coldclimb


Aug 16, 2006, 8:01 PM
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The knot I would use first would prob be a 'monkey's fist'(aka monkey's head) knot. Very bomber and I would have no prob using it in a pinch. The only prob is that you would not be able to tie one while climbing unless you had a really solid rest spot or were getting ready to rap and had both hands free. There are also a lot of other knots out there that would be affective in diff situations. Run an internet search for climbing knots and you will get sites with lists and diagrams for hundreds of knots.

Monkey might work, but an overhand works fine. No need to overcomplicate things... :?

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