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dbrayack
Aug 31, 2006, 2:04 PM
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So at the new(New River Gorge), certain areas generally have fixed draws. These areas, for the most part, include Summersville and the Meadow. In these areas, the land management has no issue regarding fixed draws.
However, the NRG proper is owned and operated by the park service, and they have specific rules regarding fixed draws.
Also, the general standard (with very few exceptions) for Endless Wall (in NRG proper) has been that fixed draws are not acceptable.
So, I'm walking down the Endless Wall one day and see that someone has fixed draws on a particular route: The Sweedish Taboo. My first inclination was the rap of the top, and pull the draws. I wouldn't keep the draws, but rather post around: "Its against park service rules to have fixed draws on your routes, if you want your gear, its at the local gear sho". I refrained and, instead, decided to inquire the opions of others.
Basically here's the argument:
Its against past ethics and park service regulations to fix draws on a route at Endless Wall.
Should I pull these draws? What if the park service hikes though and see's all this crap hanging from the wall, blatanly in violation of their rules, this definitely looks bad!
So what should I do, pull the draws or just say screw it?
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nnowinowski
Aug 31, 2006, 2:15 PM
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I don't believe that policy is well known or even real? There have been fixed draws on my stinking brain for years. You could climb the route and clean them on rappel :twisted:
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nthusiastj
Aug 31, 2006, 2:15 PM
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I'd leave some kind of note for the owners about the possible access issue implications (if there are any).
Maybe they just don't know. Maybe just take the first draw and leave a waterproof tag with your number.
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tradmanclimbs
Aug 31, 2006, 2:17 PM
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fixed draws suck. makes the cliff look like a freakin Xmass tree. Since it is against park rules and may affect access pull them.
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dbrayack
Aug 31, 2006, 2:36 PM
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In reply to: I don't believe that policy is well known or even real? There have been fixed draws on my stinking brain for years. You could climb the route and clean them on rappel
Like I said...there are some exceptions, but for those on "My Stinking Brain" are just draws right? They're not quicklink, sling, biner (Hole style). Also, thats off the beaten path as far as most climbers are concerned. Of all the Endless Areas, the Kaymoor slabs get the most significant traffic and the fixed draws are quite blatant.
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tradgal
Aug 31, 2006, 2:37 PM
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I personally think people ought to pick their battles carefully and ask yourself why you are contemplating waging war on ONE route!!! Possibly even ONE person!
As you have all ready mentioned the Meadows and Summersville (outside the park) have fixed draws. But what about Fern Butress--part of endless (my stinking brain was mentioned), the Glory Hole at kaymoor, what about the Cirque--also at Endless...??? Are you going to go after those too? Have you clipped any of these particular fixed draws in the past? Is the park service (who I would imagine are aware that these draws are hung) thinking of removing the draws?
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dbrayack
Aug 31, 2006, 2:46 PM
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All of these routes which have had draws fixed in the past (The Hole for example) in NRG proper are having these anchors replaced by chains which are acceptable.
I can't really think of any routes at the Cirque that have fixed draws (except Proper Soul). I think "My Stinking Brain" is just regular draws that someone left on the route.
Besides, there has never been fixed draws in any of the mainstream Endless Wall Areas....
And I'm not going to wage war :D
My options were:
1. Remove Draws
2. Don't Remove Draws
3. Educate/inform the community.
:idea: I choose 3, hence the post.
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notapplicable
Aug 31, 2006, 2:46 PM
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People seem to be pretty evenly divided on this one. I have always thought that if you want to climb on pre-hung draws you should hang them yourself and then pull them at the end of each day. I don't spend a lot of time in the sport climbing arena so I maybe unaware of what is generally considered acceptable practices. I say pull them.
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tradmanclimbs
Aug 31, 2006, 2:47 PM
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Waiting for the park service to have a problem is stoopid :roll: keep your area clean and avoid a problem with the park serice in the first place.
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dbrayack
Aug 31, 2006, 2:49 PM
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I sure hope the person who owns the draws says something, I'd love to hear their opinion.
I'm sure hanging the route is a Beeoch, and after they RP the route, they're going to pull them?
That'd be chill in my book.
-Danno
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dfoote07
Aug 31, 2006, 2:59 PM
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I think that you should pull the draws and leave a note. So far your suggestion have seemed to be the best. Good luck!
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tradgal
Aug 31, 2006, 3:02 PM
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I am not trying to wage war either...but...
You are acting as though you are comparing apples to oranges...when it's more like oranges to tangerines when talking about the type of pro that is left up whether it be a quick link or draw left behind. And also when comparing the location of these fixed draws. Fern butress is Endless and the Hole is part of the park system. That analogy wasn't the best...either way...
I just think it is a little hypocritical to question fixed draws on one route rather than all of them.
I can see this dilemna turning into the infamous and elusive "bolted crack" at Summersville and the drama that followed in Fayetteville... Danno, you know what I am talking about here...you were on the boat that day :wink:
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keinangst
Aug 31, 2006, 3:05 PM
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I say pull them...it's just like trash cleanup, IMO (of course, leave them at the base or something). If a route is accessible from the top so that draws can be hung on rappel in just a few minutes, then I see no excuse to leave them up for a multiday project. That's just lazy.
But like one of the above posters, I don't spend much time in sport areas. I just believe in taking you sh*t home at the end of the day.
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nnowinowski
Aug 31, 2006, 3:08 PM
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If you wanted bolted cracks just go to the Meadow I am starting to wonder if that area was kept low profile to keep the ethics there under the radar. I got on two bolted crack 12a's there which would make awesome trad lines as well as one 13 which was wretchedly glued -- " boomerang" and one which I believe was blatantly drilled after the first ascent "Eye of Mordor" , which if it truly went clean without those pockets is a super proud line and they should be filled ASAP.
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marc801
Aug 31, 2006, 3:14 PM
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In reply to: However, the NRG proper is owned and operated by the park service, and they have specific rules regarding fixed draws. ... Its against past ethics and park service regulations to fix draws on a route at Endless Wall. Should I pull these draws? What if the park service hikes though and see's all this crap hanging from the wall, blatanly in violation of their rules, this definitely looks bad!
One poster in this thread mentioned that they "...don't believe that policy is well known or even real." It's interesting that other than being relatively buried in the 200 page Climbing Management Plan Environmental Assessment Draft of 2003 in "Preferred option B",
http://data2.itc.nps.gov/...cuments/NERI_CMP.pdf
there are only some very general "leave no trace" statements but nothing specific regarding fixed draws at Endless in either the climbing regulations and guidelines page:
http://www.nps.gov/...mbing.htm#Guidelines
or in the NPS Climbing Information Brochure (PDF document):
http://www.nps.gov/...eri/pdf/climbing.pdf
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j_ung
Aug 31, 2006, 4:05 PM
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I think I can clear a lot of this up. First, the NPS Climbing Information Brochure, though I'm certain you can still find copies around, predates the new Climbing Management Plan. (Note the mention of Blue Ridge Outdoors, instead of Water Stone! haha!)
The Plan specifically bans fixed draws in all NPS-managed areas, which, as I understand it, actually includes the Meadow. The Park does know about the fixed draws and removal of all of them is underway, though admittedly, it won't finish quickly. NRAC has been charged with that removal and it falls under our rebolting permit. In many cases, fixed draws will be replaced with chains, which are not in violation of the Plan. The Hole is a good example of this project. Many of those routes have already been attended to. The Coliseum, though it does not fall under the Plan, is another example.
It's not actually a good idea to remove fixed draws on your own. Rather, pease be patient and let us get to them on scheduled rebolting and replacement days. If, however, you'd like to volunteer to help out, give Kenny a shout at Water Stone: 304-574-2425.
Recognize that there is a difference between fixed draws and project draws, which are not forbidden by the Plan, nor by commonly accepted area style. Removing project draws, however, is not commonly accepted. How to tell the difference? Ask around. Ask at Roger's. Ask at Water Stone -- Kenny Parker and Gene Kistler are probably the most knowledgeable about this and both serve on the NRAC Board of Directors. If you hang project draws, please be reasonable. A weekend? No problem. An entire season left hanging unused? Could be a problem.
In closing, there is no "battle" here and NRAC and the Park are on the same page with all of it. We are all bound by the Climbing Management Plan, end of story. If anybody has questions about other parts of the Climbing management plan, I'm happy to either answer them or go find the answers for ya.
Jay
NRAC
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dbrayack
Aug 31, 2006, 4:17 PM
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Ah the voice of reasonality....though check it out, its 17 to 17...thats pretty amazing!
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j_ung
Aug 31, 2006, 4:22 PM
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18-18 now! :lol:
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dbrayack
Aug 31, 2006, 4:30 PM
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sheeeeesh 20 to 20...talk about a splitter, I wanna jam that stuff!
-Danno
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nthusiastj
Aug 31, 2006, 4:33 PM
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Looks like a bug in your poll.
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dbrayack
Aug 31, 2006, 4:44 PM
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That would be a total bummer! Can an admin fix it? (watch its like 50-2 CHOP!)
-Danno
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marc801
Aug 31, 2006, 4:52 PM
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In reply to: I think I can clear a lot of this up.
There you go, short circuiting pages of spray, malcontent, ill-conceived arguments, and pompous sermonizing with facts, logic, and reason.
Man, you're no fun at all!!!
8^)
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cintune
Aug 31, 2006, 4:52 PM
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If the NPS is already on it, best to stay away. You could bet busted for interfering, or accused of having put them up yourself in the first place. "If they're not yours, sir, why are you disturbing them?"
Putting up chains seems to contradict the whole no-trace reason for not wanting the draws. Unless the reason is long-term safety, which I suppose it would be as far as the park guys are concerned.
But why haven't they been bootied already? Whoever hung them must not care if they get swiped or not, so they probably would just put up new ones if the old ones go missing. Climbing ethics is a really strange kind of ethics.
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dbrayack
Aug 31, 2006, 5:03 PM
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Well, they actually had draws on them before and they got swiped (it wasn't me).
So they went back and used quick links with webbing and a biner. More on the "permanent" side.
If i had my project draws stolen off something and I wanted to keep project draws on it, I'd do the same thing!
This is definitely an interesting discussion. FYI I have no intentions of removing them.
-Danno
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nnowinowski
Aug 31, 2006, 5:42 PM
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maybe this should be a different thread but really what is the deal with bolted cracks, drilled pockets and glue at the meadow. NB. I didn't notice any fixed draws.
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