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clee03m
Sep 14, 2006, 7:03 PM
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My mom gave up her career because I had major separation anxiety (unlike my older borther) at age 2 and never really came to terms with that. And I've had to live with this knowledge all my life. What I've decided from this experience is that unless I know for sure I can come to terms with the sacrifices I make for my loved ones, I won't. I don't think I can come to terms with sacrificing climbing. While it's true that I don't have kids yet, I am pretty certain I will continue to climb even if my husband decides climbing isn't his thing when I have a baby. I also don't plan to give up my career or my friends or anything I value dearly. That way my babies won't have to live with crushing guilt for the rest of their lives. And it helps that my husband is totally cool with my climbing, having a career, etc. as he should (although he does complain sometimes that he thinks I love climbing more than I love him, or that I spend 100% of my free time climbing--which is totally not true because I am going to a baseball game with him tomorrow *sigh* *ick* *sigh* *long sigh*)
So if it is a reality that women make more sacrifices then men, heck, we can change that now. Aren't there climbing mommies married to non-climbers who can tell the rest of us child-less ones that you climbed even when the babies were younger than 12 months?!
Oh, one more thing, I totally plan on pumping and breast feeding at the craig and everywhere else.
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lena_chita
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Sep 15, 2006, 8:36 AM
Post #27 of 42
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clee03m-- we can talk about it if you and I both manage to make it to Lisbon this weekend :)
I don't know what got into me to make me post about this so much... LOL, it has certainly gone way beyond the original question. But I have been thinking about it a lot lately, so...
In reply to: My mom gave up her career because I had major separation anxiety (unlike my older borther) at age 2 and never really came to terms with that. And I've had to live with this knowledge all my life. What I've decided from this experience is that unless I know for sure I can come to terms with the sacrifices I make for my loved ones, I won't.
I can relate to this, Oh, how I can relate! Yes, my Mom (electrical engineer) went to working part-time when my younger sister was born and while she continued working, she pretty much sacrificed her career. And while she was pretty good hiding it from us (or maybe I was pretty clueless about it as a child), it came out recently in our talks-- how much sadness she experienced b/c of it, and how big a sacrifice it actually was for her, and how JEALOUS she is of me b/c I have the best of both worlds-- I'm working full-time and having a succesfull career, and have kids, and one is not affecting the other.
But she has no idea how it IS affecting each other. How it gets harder and harder, instead of easier, to do both as they get older. And how I am really thinking of giving up work or scaling down to part-time, or changing profession... Not doing anything of that sort yet, but thinking... B/c the thing that looked like a big sacrifice back 8 years ago, is starting to look more and more like a good idea...
In reply to: I don't think I can come to terms with sacrificing climbing. While it's true that I don't have kids yet, I am pretty certain I will continue to climb even if my husband decides climbing isn't his thing when I have a baby. I also don't plan to give up my career or my friends or anything I value dearly. That way my babies won't have to live with crushing guilt for the rest of their lives. And it helps that my husband is totally cool with my climbing, having a career, etc. as he should (although he does complain sometimes that he thinks I love climbing more than I love him, or that I spend 100% of my free time climbing--which is totally not true because I am going to a baseball game with him tomorrow *sigh* *ick* *sigh* *long sigh*)
We never plan on giving up things we value dearly :) Do you think I was planning to give up dancing? Nope! And when I did give it up, it wasn't b/c my husbland "was not supportive" of it, like tivvis was suggesting. It all came down to the realization that K. and I were sharing equally in childcare and work-load, we had very little time left that could be devoted to leisure activities, and it just was not fair that I spent 90% of our leisure time dancing, leaving him stuck with childcare for that period of time, instead of leisure time. No matter how you look at it, it just isn't fair to say:I'm passionate about it, so I'll have 90% leisure time, and you'll have the remaining 10% b/c I can't give up my favorite activity. But dancing was an unforgiving "sport"-- I had to have at least 2 3-4hour practices a week. More before competitions, and competitions meant travel. There was just no way to reduce it to some sort of "half-way measure". Sure, I could have just said: I want to take one evening a week to go dancing at a club, but I didn't want THAT, I wanted to compete... So yes, in the end it did come to the choice: my family or my favorite activity.
No amount of "support" from a husband can come up with extra 12 hours a week of free time. A day is 24 hours, and that's that... deciding to have a child is deciding to sacrifice --hopefully a little bit of each of your fabvorite thing-- less time with friends, less time for reading, less time for parties, etc. etc. The things that can be broken down into small increments are more likely to remain. The things that can't be broken down into small increments... well...
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rmsusa
Sep 15, 2006, 10:02 AM
Post #28 of 42
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In reply to: So if it is a reality that women make more sacrifices then men, heck, we can change that now.
Can you, really? Isn't this whole thing part of the nature/nurture debate? My suspicion is that breeding and care of offspring is pretty far over on the nature side.
And, can you really call prioritizing your time to care for your offspring a sacrifice? Isn't life a process of continual re-prioritizing where you "sacrifice" something in order to have the time to take on something new? Can't species level biological imperatives be deeply satisfying at a really visceral level? Might care of offspring provide a satisfaction that you can't imagine till you're there; that completely overpowers the satisfaction you get from some recreational pursuit?
None of us (men or women) should underestimate the power of several million years of primate evolution to determine behavior. All of us know deep down in our bones that men and women behave differently. Some of it's cultural and will change with culture. Some of it's genetic and doesn't lend itself to self-improvement exercises. I don't believe any of us know where the line is drawn. Certainly we're all different, with different inclinations and characteristics, but we're all animals to start with. We just have more choices about whether we'll breed at all.
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lena_chita
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Sep 15, 2006, 10:35 AM
Post #29 of 42
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In reply to: Aren't there climbing mommies married to non-climbers who can tell the rest of us child-less ones that you climbed even when the babies were younger than 12 months?!
If there are any, they aren't stepping out to tell about it for some reason... Or maybe there really aren't any here.
I think it is pretty doable to climb in a gym once a week with a young baby. Twice a week is REALLY pushing it-- b/c if you take 2 evenings for yourself, and your husband takes 2 evenings for himself, that leaves only 3 evenings for "together time"... And during those evenings when you or your husband are taking care of the baby alone, you are in a "holding pattern"-- you do the essential things that have to be done, and leave all the non-essential things for latter... But by the time you each are done with your 2 evenings each of personal time, all those non-essential things have piled up so much that they became essential, and so instead of spending the remaining 3 evenings together as a family doing family leisure activities, you find yourself doing laundry and stuff like that :) I do think that a weekend trip alone without husband or kids is a luxury that you may be able to afford once in the first year and even then the "mommy guilt" will be pretty bad.
In reply to: Oh, one more thing, I totally plan on pumping and breast feeding at the craig and everywhere else.
Oooohhhh. I promise you'll laugh at this one later someday. You are bringing electrical pump to the crag? Do you know many wired climbing places? Or you mean you'll use a manual pump at the crag? You know how long it takes with a manual pump, and how inefficient they are? There is SOOO much comical moment potential in here... I promise I'll tell you some pumping and nursing stories later :)
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kostik
Sep 15, 2006, 11:06 AM
Post #30 of 42
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In reply to: In reply to: Oh, one more thing, I totally plan on pumping and breast feeding at the craig and everywhere else. You are bringing electrical pump to the crag?
I think she meant breastfeeding at the crag and pumping elsewhere.
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lena_chita
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Sep 15, 2006, 1:46 PM
Post #31 of 42
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In reply to: I think she meant breastfeeding at the crag and pumping elsewhere.
Thank you for clarification, dear. I knew you were reading! :lol: :wink:
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lhwang
Sep 15, 2006, 3:16 PM
Post #32 of 42
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In reply to: Oooohhhh. I promise you'll laugh at this one later someday. You are bringing electrical pump to the crag? Do you know many wired climbing places? Or you mean you'll use a manual pump at the crag? You know how long it takes with a manual pump, and how inefficient they are? There is SOOO much comical moment potential in here... I promise I'll tell you some pumping and nursing stories later :)
Manual expression, my dear. If done properly, it only takes about 20 to 30 minutes.
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lena_chita
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Sep 19, 2006, 10:34 AM
Post #33 of 42
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lhwang, I'll wait for your first-hand report after you use one of those manual pumps for 30 min at the crag. :) Heck, you don't even have to use them at the crag-- just try it in the privacy of your own home. Then we can compare notes. And if you ever want advice on pumps in the future-- let me know. I've tried quite a few of them in my ~4 years of nursing babies. Most of the manual pumps aren't worth the cardboard box they come in.
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lhwang
Sep 19, 2006, 5:24 PM
Post #34 of 42
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If you're doing it right, pumping should only take about 15-20 minutes, although there are definitely variations. Lena_chita, did you ever try the Avent Isis breast pump? It's a manual pump which is as effective as a hospital-grade electrical pump. I don't have personal experience with it, but the fifty or so women I've met who use this pump love it.
I was actually referring to manual expression of breast milk without any kind of pumping device... just using the fingers. If done correctly, it takes about 15-20 minutes. About the same as a breast pump.
There are also breast pumps that plug into cigarette lighters. No outlet needed.
As a family med resident, I've tried very hard to find out as much as I can about breastfeeding because we routinely encourage women to breastfeed for at least one year if at all possible, and because there appear to be so many social and cultural barriers to doing so. Ultimately, I've learned so much from the breastfeeding moms that I've met, many of whom are juggling career, family, kids, sports. If you're keen to share your experiences with me, that would be great too... just shoot me a PM. Kudos for breastfeeding for 4 years (several different kids, I assume!).
Anyway, I guess the long and short of it is that I really do believe it would be possible to go cragging as a breastfeeding mom. Again, not based on personal experience, but from a few years of interacting with hundreds of breastfeeding moms.
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teth
Sep 20, 2006, 7:22 AM
Post #35 of 42
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I think that lena_chita’s analysis of couple 1, 2, and 3 is realistic. Sure there will be exceptions. Lhwang, sure if she is a doctor her husband might quit work and stay home with the kids. How many doctor’s have spouses that work? How many doctor’s marry someone who won’t ask “how high?” when their spouse tells them to jump. How many families that do not include doctors can afford to have someone stay home with the kids?
Silka, It can work without him climbing (if he is a decent and secure guy) but it works much better if you can get him interested in climbing. Be carful how you approach it though. My wife took me to a workout gym once and I saw all these guys with musicals walking around and I felt insecure. Then I got on some sort of mechanical thing (I think it was an elliptical?) and got tired real quick and felt like a weakling and was embarrassed, even though I could climb V6 and do a one handed chin-up. I never wanted to go to a workout gym again! Don’t make that mistake with your guy. Take him climbing with a bunch of novices so that he does not feel inferior. Also remember that you are experienced and he might not want to look incompetent or weak in front of you, but if there are others there who are in the same boat he will have something more realistic to compare his progress to. Make it a positive experience for him, not a negative one. If he is fit it will only take him a couple of climbing days to get through the initial steep leaning curve and you will be climbing 5.8 together in no time. Just make sure he feels good about himself and the experience on the first couple of outings.
Teth
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lhwang
Sep 20, 2006, 9:48 AM
Post #36 of 42
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Is it just me or does teth's post remind anyone else of that article in the 1950s women's weekly magazine about how to be a good wife... you know, have dinner ready, cater to his comfort, listen to him talk first... in general, coddle his fragile ego?
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jpdreamer
Sep 20, 2006, 11:38 AM
Post #37 of 42
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Yes, because women never need to have their ego coddled. It's perfectly acceptable to ask a woman if she's feeling alright because she looks tired.
That said, I think the post was more along the lines of take a novice climbing were there are other novices so they don't get frustrated that everyone else can easily do problem A but they can't even string the first two moves together.
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teth
Sep 21, 2006, 11:52 AM
Post #38 of 42
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Yeah, I read that one recently. I thought it was funny considering how society has changed since then. Then I realized that I try to do all those things for my wife (maybe not every day, but at least once or twice a week) and then it did not seem as far fetched any more.
Jpdreamer got the gist of what I was saying. If someone feels uncomfortable the first time they try something, they will not want to try it a second time. However, it would be a mistake to underestimate how fragile a man’s ego may be. I feel fairly comfortable in my own skin, but put me in a completely alien environment like a workout gym and suddenly I become insecure.
Teth
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aimeerose
Mar 11, 2009, 1:07 PM
Post #39 of 42
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[quote]Oh, one more thing, I totally plan on pumping and breast feeding at the craig and everywhere else.[/quote]
Oooohhhh. I promise you'll laugh at this one later someday. You are bringing electrical pump to the crag? Do you know many wired climbing places? Or you mean you'll use a manual pump at the crag? You know how long it takes with a manual pump, and how inefficient they are? There is SOOO much comical moment potential in here... I promise I'll tell you some pumping and nursing stories later :)[/quote]
They have pumps these days that run off of batteries, my friend. And I have to tell you I pumped at the crag ALL THE TIME when I was still nursing. The only bummer part about is was how heavy the pump was to carry, but it's all training. And you can't beat pumping out a few ounces of weight before the redpoint attempt.
BTW, I climbed A TON before the baby was 12 months. And when she was exactly 12 months we took her to Spain so we could climb for 3 weeks. It was awesome. I also sent my first 13a when she was 9 months old.
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caliclimbergrl
Mar 11, 2009, 9:00 PM
Post #40 of 42
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You're freaking me out. You're right ... for the most part I think. But I'm girl #2. I'm okay with it. I love my boyfriend. The relationship is new and he has taken a little bit of an interest in climbing. He's been to the gym with me a few times and is getting into it. I have yet to take him outside. We'll see how that goes. But it's never going to be his passion ...
It's fine now -- I'm okay with the first scenario you described for us, which is pretty much how things are going. So far. But when/if we last long enough to have kids and assuming I'm right and he never really gets into climbing ... I'm sure I'll be climbing a lot less. Scary. But I think he's worth it. And I'll never stop climbing completely. It just may not be every single weekend and every single day in the summer like it was before I met my boyfriend. And it probably won't even be 2-3 weekends a month like it is now. But I'll always be a climber.
Still, you're scaring me. Because I know you're right.
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clausti
Mar 12, 2009, 7:23 AM
Post #41 of 42
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aimeerose wrote: [quote]Oh, one more thing, I totally plan on pumping and breast feeding at the craig and everywhere else.[/quote] Oooohhhh. I promise you'll laugh at this one later someday. You are bringing electrical pump to the crag? Do you know many wired climbing places? Or you mean you'll use a manual pump at the crag? You know how long it takes with a manual pump, and how inefficient they are? There is SOOO much comical moment potential in here... I promise I'll tell you some pumping and nursing stories later :)
They have pumps these days that run off of batteries, my friend. And I have to tell you I pumped at the crag ALL THE TIME when I was still nursing. The only bummer part about is was how heavy the pump was to carry, but it's all training. And you can't beat pumping out a few ounces of weight before the redpoint attempt.
i'm sure you noticed when you were replying, but lena's post was almost 2.5 years old! and her kids' breastfeeding years are farther back than that. so maybe they stared making better battery pumps recently? i know i feel like i've been reading more about breastfeeding (and not just here) lately.
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obsessed
Mar 14, 2009, 7:08 AM
Post #42 of 42
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[quote/] "lena_chita"]Nice (albeit wrong) analysis of my relatioship with my DH, tivvis. I'm going to analize you and say that you are probably partnered with someone who doesn't climb, your relatioship is still "young" (less than 5 years), you do not have children, and you are relatively young yourself :wink: Let's see how many of those points I've scored wrong.
And you tell me, HAVE you ever seen a non-climber guy hang out by the crag all day watching his wife climb? I am pretty sure that it is a very rare sight.-- b/c I have never seen it.
But the other way? Plenty! If you ever got to the New, esp. an area like Summersville, you'll see them pretty much any weekend. It usually involves a group of guys and a couple of girls in bikinis that arrive by boat and the girls spend their time sun-tanning, reading, chatting, giggling and taking pictures of their climbing guys... Or a girl in snow-white shorts and stylish hiking boots with blow-dried hair lounging on top of her boyfriends backpack while he climbs...
This is what made me say that "wife climbs/guy doesn't" is not symmetrical to "guy climbs/wife doesn't" situation._____________________________________________
Very true lena. My husband has never seen me climb...except for in pictures. He hasn't ever come to the crag to hang out nor would I ask him to. I have seen non climbing girlfriends though.
edit to try to fix the quotes..
(This post was edited by obsessed on Mar 14, 2009, 7:09 AM)
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