|
|
|
|
arnoilgner
Oct 9, 2006, 2:11 PM
Post #26 of 38
(6188 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 8, 2003
Posts: 366
|
Hi mturner, your comment:
"For me, it seems I'm able to push myself through the hard or scary part of a problem mostly because I don't want to do it again. In other words, I know if I come down I'm just going to have to get to that point again and I'd rather just send now so it motivates me. Not on all climbs, just the ones I start to feel sketched out on. Hey, whatever works right?"
"Hey, whatever works?" is a destination mindset. Your comment sounds like you hate climbing so better get it over with so you can go back to work, right? It seems you value the destination, the end goal. If so, then yes, whatever works. But I don't think you really like climbing that much. Spend some time asking yourself why you climb and you'll uncover your motivation. I'd suggest you look deeper into why you hate being in the middle of the stressful climbing situation. If you truly valued learning how to become a better climber you would want to be in stressful climbing situations because that is where you learn how to become a better climber. Think about it...
arno
|
|
|
|
|
arnoilgner
Oct 9, 2006, 2:18 PM
Post #27 of 38
(6188 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 8, 2003
Posts: 366
|
Hi shimanilami, your comment:
"I've actually backed up gear at cruxes (which I never used to do), checked how the fall might look and gotten comfortable with that, and then fired through with no fear."
I too back up my gear before cruxes. It helps me commit more fully to that section of rock. I don't want to be surprised by taking a bigger fall than what I've assessed. Great job on your risk assessment, falling practice, and committing.
Yes, I still experience fear sometimes, but it is less overwhelming than it used to be and seems to be more concern than fear. I don't get the opportunity to push myself on routes that challenge me so when I do it's natural to have lost some competence.
arno
|
|
|
|
|
mturner
Oct 9, 2006, 3:55 PM
Post #28 of 38
(6188 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 17, 2005
Posts: 980
|
In reply to: Hi mturner, your comment: "For me, it seems I'm able to push myself through the hard or scary part of a problem mostly because I don't want to do it again. In other words, I know if I come down I'm just going to have to get to that point again and I'd rather just send now so it motivates me. Not on all climbs, just the ones I start to feel sketched out on. Hey, whatever works right?" "Hey, whatever works?" is a destination mindset. Your comment sounds like you hate climbing so better get it over with so you can go back to work, right? It seems you value the destination, the end goal. If so, then yes, whatever works. But I don't think you really like climbing that much. Spend some time asking yourself why you climb and you'll uncover your motivation. I'd suggest you look deeper into why you hate being in the middle of the stressful climbing situation. If you truly valued learning how to become a better climber you would want to be in stressful climbing situations because that is where you learn how to become a better climber. Think about it... arno
Perhaps I wasn't clear. I don't hate climbing. I love the challenge, the thrill, the feeling of success etc etc but all I was saying is that sometimes the will to seek that destination point is what gets you to the top. Honestly, if climbers didn't have a "destination mindset" they'd just keep coming down when it gets scary and would never send. They may still have fun so that's great but putting yourself in the same stressful situation on the same climb over and over again never to succeed past that point is not how to become a better climber. You're right in the sense that stressful situations make us better climbers, but ONLY after we learn to get past them. I always thrive to push myself to my limits trying hard grades so I do seek out those stressful situations. All I was saying is that, those stressful situations are not the fun part for me (btw, I never said I HATE this part) - the fun part is getting up the courage to push past them. You're making it sound like getting to those stressful situations is enough. And if that's what floats your boat then have fun.
|
|
|
|
|
saxfiend
Oct 9, 2006, 4:31 PM
Post #29 of 38
(6188 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 31, 2004
Posts: 1208
|
In reply to: In reply to: Hi mturner, your comment: "For me, it seems I'm able to push myself through the hard or scary part of a problem mostly because I don't want to do it again. In other words, I know if I come down I'm just going to have to get to that point again and I'd rather just send now so it motivates me. Not on all climbs, just the ones I start to feel sketched out on. Hey, whatever works right?" "Hey, whatever works?" is a destination mindset. Your comment sounds like you hate climbing so better get it over with so you can go back to work, right? It seems you value the destination, the end goal. If so, then yes, whatever works. But I don't think you really like climbing that much. Spend some time asking yourself why you climb and you'll uncover your motivation. I'd suggest you look deeper into why you hate being in the middle of the stressful climbing situation. If you truly valued learning how to become a better climber you would want to be in stressful climbing situations because that is where you learn how to become a better climber. Think about it... arno Perhaps I wasn't clear. I don't hate climbing. I love the challenge, the thrill, the feeling of success etc etc but all I was saying is that sometimes the will to seek that destination point is what gets you to the top. Honestly, if climbers didn't have a "destination mindset" they'd just keep coming down when it gets scary and would never send. They may still have fun so that's great but putting yourself in the same stressful situation on the same climb over and over again never to succeed past that point is not how to become a better climber. You're right in the sense that stressful situations make us better climbers, but ONLY after we learn to get past them. I always thrive to push myself to my limits trying hard grades so I do seek out those stressful situations. All I was saying is that, those stressful situations are not the fun part for me (btw, I never said I HATE this part) - the fun part is getting up the courage to push past them. You're making it sound like getting to those stressful situations is enough. And if that's what floats your boat then have fun.
The top of a cliff isn't really a "destination" at all, as far as I'm concerned. It's just the place where the climbing experience ends because you can't climb past the top. :wink:
JL
|
|
|
|
|
arnoilgner
Oct 10, 2006, 2:35 AM
Post #30 of 38
(6188 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 8, 2003
Posts: 366
|
Hi mturner,
I guess it depends on how you define success. In my studies I've found that valuing the learning process is what causes folks to improve, not valuing the destination. You take any skill. To improve that skill you must learn it. Valuing the destination detracts from valuing learning. It devalues it. Performance is improved a little by desiring to gain the top of the climb but that desire turns into fear motivation...fear of not getting your expectation (the top) met. Once this happens you are operating out of avoidance instead of engaging the challenge.
When we value the learning process we keep attention in the moment and having attention in the moment is the best way to assure you will perform to your potential. All climbers love climbing in their own way. I was pointing out that many climbers climb to be done climbing. They are in the midst of the stress and they want the effort to be over. Why would we do that? Well, because we value feeding our egos with redpoint/onsight ascents, not climbing in an of itself. The true value of climbing comes from being present for the stress and chaos that IS climbing. Once you get to the top it's over. How much benefit is there sitting in our comfort zone at the bottom of the climb with our ego wallowing in "success?"
Didn't mean to ruffle your feathers. Just talking here.
arno
|
|
|
|
|
mturner
Oct 10, 2006, 3:21 PM
Post #31 of 38
(6188 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 17, 2005
Posts: 980
|
arno,
I understand your view point and perhaps I was a bit over-exagerating because I didn't want to sound like I don't enjoy the process, but at the same time, you can only enjoy the process for a certain point before you have to muster up the courage to push on to the top. That's all I was saying. It may take me 10 or more tries to do that but what I've found is often times the difference between the 11th try being another fall and it being a send is just continuing to tell myself that I don't want to have to keep trying this same move over and over again. Not because I'm not having fun or I hate climbing, but because I do want to reach that goal of the top. Is that understandable? Maybe it is an ego trip but let's come our senses here, climbing is selfish, no matter why you do it.
|
|
|
|
|
arnoilgner
Oct 11, 2006, 4:11 AM
Post #32 of 38
(6188 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 8, 2003
Posts: 366
|
Hi mturner, your comment:
"Not because I'm not having fun or I hate climbing, but because I do want to reach that goal of the top. Is that understandable? Maybe it is an ego trip but let's come our senses here, climbing is selfish, no matter why you do it."
Thanks for your reply. It is understandable in that we all tend to be motivated by improving in grades, sending certain climbs, and reaching the top. It has been helpful for me to re-evaluate my motivation in that regard over the years of my climbing life. I used to be more ego driven, still am somewhat. And yes, climbing is selfish, which I don't consider a wrong orientation. But that's another subject.
arno
|
|
|
|
|
arnoilgner
Oct 11, 2006, 4:14 AM
Post #33 of 38
(6188 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 8, 2003
Posts: 366
|
Hi mturner, your comment:
"Not because I'm not having fun or I hate climbing, but because I do want to reach that goal of the top. Is that understandable? Maybe it is an ego trip but let's come our senses here, climbing is selfish, no matter why you do it."
Thanks for your reply. It is understandable in that we all tend to be motivated by improving in grades, sending certain climbs, and reaching the top. It has been helpful for me to re-evaluate my motivation in that regard over the years of my climbing life. I used to be more ego driven, still am somewhat. And yes, climbing is selfish, which I don't consider a wrong orientation. But that's another subject.
arno
|
|
|
|
|
mturner
Oct 11, 2006, 3:29 PM
Post #34 of 38
(6188 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 17, 2005
Posts: 980
|
Cool! Sounds like we understand each other even if we don't 100% agree.
|
|
|
|
|
daydreamer
Jan 10, 2007, 7:37 PM
Post #35 of 38
(3305 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 6, 2006
Posts: 29
|
Arno (a fellow tennessean!)
A close friend of mine in Oregon recently turned me on to your book...he actually gave me a copy and you had signed the inside cover. So far its been a great read unfortunately I haven't had much time to dedicate to it right now but I will soon enough. I know this post is out of place but I didn't want to start a new thread just to say cheers and that I really admire your work.
(I guess I could have just sent a private message...I'm fairly new to this site still)
(This post was edited by daydreamer on Jan 10, 2007, 7:38 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
arnoilgner
Jan 11, 2007, 5:25 AM
Post #36 of 38
(3286 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 8, 2003
Posts: 366
|
hello daydreamer,
thanks for the note. you can always contact me through my website: www.warriorsway.com; arno@warriorsway.com
arno
|
|
|
|
|
dredsovrn
Feb 26, 2007, 11:19 PM
Post #37 of 38
(3164 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 24, 2003
Posts: 1226
|
I am not sure I have developed the skill of not giving in to my occasional desire to give up and fall. Fortunately I have a great climbing partner that won't let me give up.
I was recently working on a route that would be my hardest redpoint. I always fell after the first set of moves. One day I found myself in new territory. I made a few moves and was really pumped. I was nervous about the fall and reached for a hold I didn't end up liking.
At that point I felt like giving up because I figured I was going to fall anyway. I yelled "take" to my partner and he replied "no." So I kept climbing. If fell just short of the anchor but had continued through most of the climb. I just need it to get warm again so I can redpoint.
Anyway, I have definitely given up mentally when it wasn't neccessary. I continue to try to master it, but I don't think I am there yet.
|
|
|
|
|
arnoilgner
Feb 27, 2007, 12:06 AM
Post #38 of 38
(3163 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 8, 2003
Posts: 366
|
none of us are there yet, but we can all improve, as you seem to be doing. great job on continuing to climb when your mind wanted you to "take." i would suggest some incremental falling practice to gain some familiarity with falling. also, remember, your mind will always want you to quit. to deal with this simply breathe, relax as well as you can (lower heels, loosen grip) and make one more move. that one move many times will help convince your mind that more is possible for you.
arno
|
|
|
|
|
|
