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theicemoose
Oct 13, 2006, 2:13 AM
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Anyone know who the first American to flash 5.13 and first to solo 5.13 as well? Bonus points for knowing who established the world's first 5.13 in 1977.
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curt
Oct 13, 2006, 2:40 AM
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In reply to: ...Bonus points for knowing who established the world's first 5.13 in 1977.
1977? How about John Gill in the Tetons, 1959. What do I win? 8^)
Curt
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theicemoose
Oct 13, 2006, 3:03 AM
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Keep Trying. Also, 5.12 and 5.13 ARE different. So I hear. Not to belittle Gill, but we're talking roped, shoed climbs. Gill probably has problems in his HOUSE that won't get repeated this century, but I'm looking for historical facts. I'm psyched that anyone actually checked this out (new poster), and not so surprised that this question didn't get a first try answer...everyone's going to think Bachar, or Yaniro, or Michael Reardon, or Chris Sharma...we are climbing in the Magazine Age, you know. If at first you don't succeed...and if you need a clue, how about: short, and survivor of a nasty accident. And no, NOT Bachar (best wishes, though, man).
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happiegrrrl
Oct 13, 2006, 3:06 AM
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first American to flash 5.13John Long on Hangover at Taquitz
first to solo 5.13Scott Franklin on Survival of the Fittest, the Shawangunks
Bonus points for knowing who established the world's first 5.13 in 1977.Ray Jardine on Phoenix in Yosemite
.....from A Hitory of Free Climbing in America by Pat Ament
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fracture
Oct 13, 2006, 3:06 AM
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Curt's talking about the V8/V9 boulder problem Gill did. V8 is about 5.13b. Excluding it just because there was no rope is nonsense.
But the answer you're probably looking for is Ray Jardine's ascent of Phoenix.
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theicemoose
Oct 13, 2006, 3:09 AM
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Yaniro's Grand Illusion was '79, it was put up without sticky rubber, he is the man, but nope, nope, and nope. Bachar has soloed 12d, according to his sponsors put up 12d onsight solo FAs in spain, but he didn't nab the first ascent of Fish Crack (Valley 12b, FA: Henry Barber), and he wasn't the first American to establish, flash, or solo 5.13. Any other guesses?
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happiegrrrl
Oct 13, 2006, 3:14 AM
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In reply to: Curt's talking about the V8/V9 boulder problem Gill did. V8 is about 5.13b. Excluding it just because there was no rope is nonsense. But the answer you're probably looking for is Ray Jardine's ascent of Phoenix.
or shoes! hahaha....
Question for Curt, as I assume he'll know the answer - How long is the boulder problem(s) you're thinking on that Gill did in the Tetons, as compared to the Phoenix in Yosemite? Is Phoenix a sustained 13? Or a few 13 moves?
I think it bears repeating, an saying I made up a while back, when someone was dissing the old guys, saying they followed the path of least resistance in route-finding.... I said something like "Yeah...that Gill, he was so old school, following the path of...oh wait, for him it was the path of least existence!
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theicemoose
Oct 13, 2006, 3:17 AM
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Interesting plot twist! I looked up Hangover in Ament's book, and according to that, Happie is right...and Ray Jardine has been getting some major sloppy seconds high-fives for a long time! Even having read the book twice, that bit didn't stay with me, so nice job! So, the answer to country's first established 13 has been being misrepresented by the climbing media for some time now, apparently-I had always thought it was Jardine's Pheonix(chipped climb) as well. But as to first flash and first solo, it was Scott Franklin (the accident was paragliding, he got JACKED, still climbs hard, too). The flash I can't remember which, but the solo was Survival of the Fittest, Gunks, NY, which he FA'd and then later soloed. That climb was onsighted by Brit Steve McClure not too long ago. Drowning in information.....
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theicemoose
Oct 13, 2006, 3:28 AM
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Oh, and by the way...if bouldering WAS in fact climbing...wouldn't you just say 5.13b boulder problem? -But it's not, so you don't. Not to ignite the fire of that old controversy, boulders are people too, they just aren't rock climbing in the same sense. Getting out of bed the other day after two full nalgenes of rum and coke the night before felt like 5.13, but I didn't put a rope on, so it doesn't count. I'd also like to take this moment to inscribe forever in print the fact that Alvaro Perez cannot outdrink me, even when I'm way out of practice. Thank you for your support.
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curt
Oct 13, 2006, 4:37 AM
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In reply to: Oh, and by the way...if bouldering WAS in fact climbing...wouldn't you just say 5.13b boulder problem? -But it's not, so you don't. Not to ignite the fire of that old controversy, boulders are people too, they just aren't rock climbing in the same sense. Getting out of bed the other day after two full nalgenes of rum and coke the night before felt like 5.13, but I didn't put a rope on, so it doesn't count. I'd also like to take this moment to inscribe forever in print the fact that Alvaro Perez cannot outdrink me, even when I'm way out of practice. Thank you for your support.
Jesus, you're a fucktard. In terms you may understand: If you had a brain, which you clearly don't, your opinion would at least matter in some small way. But you don't, so it doesn't. :boring:
Curt
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curt
Oct 13, 2006, 6:25 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Curt's talking about the V8/V9 boulder problem Gill did. V8 is about 5.13b. Excluding it just because there was no rope is nonsense. But the answer you're probably looking for is Ray Jardine's ascent of Phoenix. or shoes! hahaha.... Question for Curt, as I assume he'll know the answer - How long is the boulder problem(s) you're thinking on that Gill did in the Tetons, as compared to the Phoenix in Yosemite? Is Phoenix a sustained 13? Or a few 13 moves?
The Center Route on Red Cross Rock is only a few moves--whereas the Phoenix is a sustained route. However, that really isn't the issue if the concept of overall difficulty is the relevant metric. I'm willing to bet that there are more people who can climb Phoenix than there are people who can do the Center Route. Why? Because it is at least as difficult.
Curt
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eddie_munster
Oct 13, 2006, 11:36 PM
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I'd be willing to bet that there are a lot more people that can climb V8 than the phoenix, for sure. V8 is easier than .13b IMO, and more people probably crank out midnight lightning in the valley than phoenix crack. So it could be easier than 5.13a in this case.
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devkrev
Oct 14, 2006, 1:44 PM
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The only reason Jardine was able to climb the Phoenix was because he cheated by using his "then unknown" crazy springy protection devices.
dev
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fracture
Oct 14, 2006, 2:23 PM
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In reply to: I'd be willing to bet that there are a lot more people that can climb V8 than the phoenix, for sure.
That's trivially true, since Phoenix is an individual route, unless "can" is interpreted in a very general sense.
In reply to: V8 is easier than .13b IMO
This is like saying "8a is easier than 13b". Sure, it's fuzzy at the edges, but in general it is basically the same grade. Even if more people do one than the other, your conclusion doesn't necessarily follow.
If you put 60 feet of 5.7 in front of a three-move V8 and bolt it, you'll have a 5.13b.
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bobd1953
Oct 14, 2006, 3:58 PM
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In reply to: theicemoose wrote: Oh, and by the way...if bouldering WAS in fact climbing...wouldn't you just say 5.13b boulder problem? -But it's not, so you don't. Not to ignite the fire of that old controversy, boulders are people too, they just aren't rock climbing in the same sense. Getting out of bed the other day after two full nalgenes of rum and coke the night before felt like 5.13, but I didn't put a rope on, so it doesn't count. I'd also like to take this moment to inscribe forever in print the fact that Alvaro Perez cannot outdrink me, even when I'm way out of practice. Thank you for your support. Jesus, you're a fucktard.
I'll second that !!!
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theicemoose
Oct 14, 2006, 5:14 PM
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They call me 50/50...cause half the people love me, and the other half are haters! -Obe Carrion
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curt
Oct 14, 2006, 5:20 PM
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In reply to: They call me 50/50...cause half the people love me, and the other half are haters! -Obe Carrion
Still, 100% of us have correctly identified you as a moron. Perhaps you ought to take the time to actually learn something about climbing from people who know what they're talking about? Alternatively, you should probably give up climbing and take up an activity more fitting to your limited abilities--like tiddlywinks, maybe.
Curt
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theicemoose
Oct 18, 2006, 2:47 AM
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'Learning something about climbing from someone who knows what they're talking about'...ahh, the hubris is getting thick, I think I'll roll down another window. In any case, to my detractors' joy, I am pleased to announce my retirement from climbing, at some asinine poster's request. Since I will no longer be rock climbing any more, I have decided to forgo my rope etc., and, after careful consideration of several ladies' sewing circles, I have chosen the lamest, most non-sport, spray-filled activity of all. I've got a little foam pad and a bucket of powdered panty drier, and I'm now going to hang out under overhangs, doing more talking than climbing, saying things like "dude..gill!", and generally being lame. So I guess I'll see you "fellas" at the boulders this week-I'll bring the weak sauce, though it doesn't sound like you are running out anytime soon!
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curt
Nov 6, 2006, 1:19 AM
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Please do us a favor and take a couple of minutes to remove all that irritating sand from your delicate little vagina.
:boring:
Curt
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blazesod
Nov 6, 2006, 4:02 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: Oh, and by the way...if bouldering WAS in fact climbing...wouldn't you just say 5.13b boulder problem? -But it's not, so you don't. Not to ignite the fire of that old controversy, boulders are people too, they just aren't rock climbing in the same sense. Getting out of bed the other day after two full nalgenes of rum and coke the night before felt like 5.13, but I didn't put a rope on, so it doesn't count. I'd also like to take this moment to inscribe forever in print the fact that Alvaro Perez cannot outdrink me, even when I'm way out of practice. Thank you for your support. Jesus, you're a f---. In terms you may understand: If you had a brain, which you clearly don't, your opinion would at least matter in some small way. But you don't, so it doesn't. :boring: Curt
I couldn't have said it better myself, next drink is on me. (trophy)
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rockprodigy
Nov 17, 2006, 6:41 PM
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Although I hate to mean, I'm going to have to lean towards the opinions of the two lifetime achievement award deserving fellas who think you're a moron. You might do some research on who those guys are.
Anyway....
A far more interesting question would be:
Who actually got the FA of the Phoenix?
Quoting from Ament's book (previously referenced):
In reply to: Many attempts were made on Phoenix, including a successful top-rope of it on May 14, 1977. The effort involved "working" the route, in a style tha was a precursor to future "sport climbing." The lead then was done with three rests on gear. Jardine was mostly interested in pushing hard climbs, and was not always very rigourous about style. A climb with three hangs was not the purist's idea of a free ascent (ed: nor mine) and the route is an endurance feat that is much more difficult when climbed continuously. At the same time, there were others who didn't mind calling Jardine's ascent a first free ascent (ed. apparently this icemouse fella is one of those). .... Jardine orgininally rated Phoenix 5.12, but it was later upgrded to 5.13....
So, it seems as though not only did Jardine not "redpoint" the Phoenix in the current sense of the word, but he didn't rate it 5.13, because the way he "climbed" it, it would not warrant that rating.
So who did do the first 5.13??
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fracture
Nov 17, 2006, 11:22 PM
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If he toproped it without hangs, that's good enough for me. First free ascent still goes to Jardine, even if the first free lead goes to someone else.
But the first 5.13 still appears to belong to Gill, as discussed above.
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quiteatingmysteak
Nov 18, 2006, 1:29 AM
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this thread makes my head hurt.
and the smileys dont work the same as they once have...
-Greg
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curt
Dec 2, 2006, 5:10 AM
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fracture wrote: If he toproped it without hangs, that's good enough for me. First free ascent still goes to Jardine, even if the first free lead goes to someone else. But the first 5.13 still appears to belong to Gill, as discussed above.
Indeed.
Curt
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