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notapplicable
Oct 13, 2006, 10:55 AM
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Every person that I have ever done gear routes with has at one point in time totally flipped out at the top of a great climb or pitch, but ten min. later they are grinning from ear to ear and talking about how wonderful the climbing was. One time a guy (will remain nameless) was so pissed that I honestly think he would have kicked me off the belay ledge if I hadn't still been attached to him, he was cussin and turning red but that night he was talking about going back the next day to lead the thing. It happens for a variety of reasons, the climbing was too hard, they thought they were going to fall (that's what ropes are for), the climbing was to exposed, etc....
Has this ever happened to you and more importantly have you ever done this to anyone else? (To those who have done the flipping) - What gives, you make me feel bad :( for making you think your going to die then you all smiles later, can you give me a little window into your thought processes at these times?
To those of you out there with the flamethrowers, Yes I realize that I am the common denominator in these equations but they all continue to climb with me so they must trust me and safety is never cited as a cause for melt down so I am confident it isn't the fact that they are roped to me that is causing the problems.
I know some of the wording is a bit sarcastic but the questions are ment to be taken seriously.
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nilregrets
Oct 13, 2006, 11:15 AM
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Haven’t you ever gotten yourself into a situation where you are so scared you swear you will never climb anything that isn’t made out of wood, like stairs, if you make it down alive? Then of course you complete the climb without falling or maybe with falling but just not dieing. It takes fifteen minutes to realize how sweet it was. That’s why I climb, and ski, and ride… It just takes a little while to get you mind together after an experience like that.
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keinangst
Oct 13, 2006, 11:17 AM
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I thought you meant literally "loosing their sh*t," not "losing their sh*t." The mental imagery was outstanding.
Personally, I think sometimes 80% of the fun of climbing is looking back on the scary stuff a couple days later. This is doubly true for trad.
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csproul
Oct 13, 2006, 11:17 AM
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I think this is actually pretty common, and that "leaders" often bank on the fact that their seconds will remember enjoying themselves even after wigging out while climbing. Sometimes "leaders" do this consciously and sometimes not. I also think that for the most part, this is a poor approach to introducing new people to climbing, and that we have to walk a fine line between challenging new climbers and making it too hard/scary such that they aren't likely to want to try it again. Newcomers will already have plenty of challenges, but it is the success that will keep them coming back. I see this scenario all the time and in my mind it's the sign of a poor teacher: Leader gets second in way over his/her head. Second curses/cries/flails. Leader dismisses second's fears or even gets upset at second for being weak or scared. If the leader is lucky, the second remembers only overcoming the challenge, if not maybe they never want to climb again. Now, if these seconds are "experienced" climbers then we have a whole different story!
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csproul
Oct 13, 2006, 11:22 AM
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double post deleted
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kimmyt
Oct 13, 2006, 11:23 AM
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It's happened to me.
I know there's a rope on me. I know if I fall, I'm not going anywhere other than maybe a few feet down with rope stretch.
That does not mean I don't have the right to get scared (and usually feel really embarassed about it afterwards as well).
What pisses me off is when leaders in this situation belittle the second's fears and/or mock them for having said fears.
A little compassion in such an instance would go a long way to making the second feel a bit more secure and comfortable and possible ease their fear sooner and get them climbing again instead of freaking out.
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notapplicable
Oct 13, 2006, 11:47 AM
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In reply to: I also think that for the most part, this is a poor approach to introducing new people to climbing, and that we have to walk a fine line between challenging new climbers and making it too hard/scary such that they aren't likely to want to try it again. Newcomers will already have plenty of challenges, but it is the success that will keep them coming back. I see this scenario all the time and in my mind it's the sign of a poor teacher: Leader gets second in way over his/her head. Second curses/cries/flails. Leader dismisses seconds fears or even gets upset at second for being weak or scared. If the leader is lucky, the second remembers only overcoming the challenge, if not maybe they never want to climb again. Now, if these seconds are "experienced" climbers then we have a whole different story!
I couldn't agree more and in only one of these circumstances was I in any capacity a "teacher". All of my partners are as experienced as I am (we literally started on the same day) or more so, in no way was the partnership set up so that I was introducing them to anything new. I think it is absolutely the experienced climbers responsibility to take care of the new guys and not get them in over there head and I would never intentionally do that to someone.
This scenario happens on climbs that they have either chosen or happily agreed to go on so I am completely baffled by it. I do not get upset with or mock the seconds when they are flipping out, on the contrary I usually feel bad because I think there not having any fun and that is the whole reason we are out there to start with. I just don't understand why you would get to the top of a climb and tell the person that went before them "I hate you" that's just F'd up.
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csproul
Oct 13, 2006, 11:58 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: I also think that for the most part, this is a poor approach to introducing new people to climbing, and that we have to walk a fine line between challenging new climbers and making it too hard/scary such that they aren't likely to want to try it again. Newcomers will already have plenty of challenges, but it is the success that will keep them coming back. I see this scenario all the time and in my mind it's the sign of a poor teacher: Leader gets second in way over his/her head. Second curses/cries/flails. Leader dismisses seconds fears or even gets upset at second for being weak or scared. If the leader is lucky, the second remembers only overcoming the challenge, if not maybe they never want to climb again. Now, if these seconds are "experienced" climbers then we have a whole different story! I couldn't agree more and in only one of these circumstances was I in any capacity a "teacher". All of my partners are as experienced as I am (we literally started on the same day) or more so, in no way was the partnership set up so that I was introducing them to anything new. I think it is absolutely the experienced climbers responsibility to take care of the new guys and not get them in over there head and I would never intentionally do that to someone. This scenario happens on climbs that they have either chosen or happily agreed to go on so I am completely baffled by it. I do not get upset with or mock the seconds when they are flipping out, on the contrary I usually feel bad because I think there not having any fun and that is the whole reason we are out there to start with. I just don't understand why you would get to the top of a climb and tell the person that went before them "I hate you" that's just F'd up. |
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notapplicable
Oct 13, 2006, 11:58 AM
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In reply to: Haven’t you ever gotten yourself into a situation where you are so scared you swear you will never climb anything that isn’t made out of wood, like stairs, if you make it down alive?
Hell yeah I have scared my self so bad that I just knew the next time I looked in a mirror all of my hair was going to be completely white. And yes it takes a few moments back on the ground before I'm laughing about it but I have never once blamed or taken it out on someone else. I guess I should have been a little clearer, I don't always understand why they loose it but that's not why it bothers me what bothers me is when they cuss me (I have literally been told "I hate you" and "I ought to kick your a$$") when all I did was take them up a climb they wanted to do. Having the thought "this is going to end poorly" is one of the hallmarks of a great climbing experience but freak out on your self not me.
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notapplicable
Oct 13, 2006, 12:05 PM
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In reply to: What pisses me off is when leaders in this situation belittle the second's fears and/or mock them for having said fears
I would never do that unless I have been climbing with them long enough to know they are just being a crybaby.
In reply to: A little compassion in such an instance would go a long way to making the second feel a bit more secure and comfortable and possible ease their fear sooner and get them climbing again instead of freaking out. |
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climbinginchico
Oct 13, 2006, 12:08 PM
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I hauled my regular climbing partner up Snake Dike on Half Dome for his second day of climbing ever.
Then on his seventh day of climbing I hauled him up Royal Arches.
He's never had a problem, and actually really likes following the harder stuff I've led with him. The hard cracks are a problem for him because he has ankle problems, but I really like how he loves to push himself, and isn't afraid to throw himself at a 10d on TR after I've led it.
I think this is partly due to me explaining in relatively simple terms how safe the gear is, how strong it all is, and I explain safety measures he's not familiar with both before I do them and while I'm doing them. He's told me that he really appreciates that aspect of climbing with me. Not only does it reassure him we're being safe, but it helps him learn more quickly.
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climbingaggie03
Oct 13, 2006, 12:08 PM
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why would the second be scared? they're on top rope.
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csproul
Oct 13, 2006, 12:15 PM
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In reply to: why would the second be scared? they're on top rope. |
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notapplicable
Oct 13, 2006, 12:18 PM
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Yeah I love climbing with people who can open up new routes to me and I get to work climbs on top rope that would basically be an exercise in futility for me to try and lead. Also, we aren't talking high end climbs here I rarely lead anything harder than 5.9 on gear.
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notapplicable
Oct 13, 2006, 12:21 PM
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In reply to: And I could definitely show you climbs where following was potentially just as unsafe as leading.
Sounds like you'v climbed at Seneca before. :twisted:
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chossmonkey
Oct 13, 2006, 12:41 PM
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My wife has gotten rather upset with me. Mostly at the Gunks where she would have a lot of trouble pulling the roofs. Erect Direction being the most memorable.
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kimmyt
Oct 13, 2006, 12:46 PM
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In reply to: - have you ever freaked out on someone else after you freaked your own damn self out?
Yes, but it was not a cut and dry situation in which i was just scared. It was because my leader basically laughed at me and mocked me while I was in the midst of freaking out and did some other things I won't get into which did not help the situation at the time.
I think, in many instances, the 'I hate you' thing is just some of that remaining fear (irrational as it may be) of dying in that situation. Yes, the second may be on toprope and in a safe instance, however at the point in time in which they are freaked out, they are wound up, adrenaline going, blaming the person who put them in that situation (you) even though they probably asked to be brought up in the first place.
Like someone else said, it is not a rational thing, but it happens. I would try not to take offense when people say things like that (although if you really get that reaction alot, maybe you should be able to better gauge your second's abilities and suggest maybe you try an easier route or something). Unless they are still cursing you days later, let it roll off your back or gently remind them that they wanted to go on this route, or apologize for scaring them or something.
Getting back to how you seem to get this reaction alot, perhaps you are judging your second's abilities poorly, overestimating their abilities, or maybe there is some other reason they are angry at you by the end of the route that you don't realize. Some communication with them to ask them why they are angry at you might ease things a bit, but of course you might want to wait until the throb of adrenaline and fear has subsided and they can act like a human being again instead of a cornered animal. You have said that you have had this experience with almost everyone you climb with... has that decreased the amount of people who continue to climb with you or does it seem like they are just scared for the moment but then are okay with climbing with you in the future?
K.
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clarki
Oct 13, 2006, 12:58 PM
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In reply to: why would the second be scared? they're on top rope.
Because for some people, infact , the vast majority of people on this planet, being 30, 50 or even 100 feet off the deck is scary as hell--make a mistake and it's GAME OVER!!! Maybe you feel comfortable risking your life? Maybe you have been climbing long enough that you can calculate the risks and respond accordingly and in a rational way. If I hear you say you never get scared I will be first to step up and cry BULLS**T!!!!
Consider this: Do you implicitly trust your partner? What if there is a human/gear/rock failure, you slip and both of you plummet to your deaths? Sh*t happens, all the time. Just look around.
I have spent precious moments (that's how I remember them, AFTER they are over!) totally gripped and damn near dropping my load ON TOP ROPE! I've also had glorious moments on lead, at my limit, above sketchy gear where I felt like everything was alligned and I could do no wrong. It's called being human and it is a very dynamic process. Please don't be an asshole and put others down for being scared---my guess is that soon enough (if you actually climb, that is) you'll be vowing to yourself "Please just let me survive this and I'll never do it again", only to tell your friends later, over a beer, how cool that pitch was.
Check yourself Hoss, before you wreck yourself.
John
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caughtinside
Oct 13, 2006, 1:22 PM
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Number Two drops Number Two? :P
Honestly, it sounds like this happens to you a lot because you are climbing with n00bs a lot.
Myself, I choose to do fun, challenging climbs with people I like, and who know how to climb. So these freak outs are infreakquent.
If I wanted to drag along a non climber or a beginner climber, I can see how this would happen more often.
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happiegrrrl
Oct 13, 2006, 1:26 PM
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In reply to: why would the second be scared? they're on top rope.
haven't read the whole thread, so sorry if this has already been dealt with...
There are damned legitimate reasons a second can be scared, and I am, frankly, a bit tired of people pretending that TR is a foolproof cord.
- Not all leaders protect traverses well for the second.
- Sometimes people don't pay as much attention as they might, when belaying. Now, I take 100% full responsibility for myself and with whom I rope up with, but my leader's attitude DOES affect my ability to climb with confidence. If a leader doesn't lock off when the second falls, it will hurt the second just as much as if they dropped the leader on a fall.....That TR don't mean squat if it isn't there. I have climbed with people(leaders and seconds) who I trusted implicitly on belay, and my climbing is more bold than if I have even the slightest hesitation. Doesn't mean the belayer ISN'T focused, but.... it's the thought that counts.
- Some leaders don't belay well for the situation. A second needs slack going through a roof, gentle rope management as they are tarversing so they don't get pulled off and a tigher line when getting off a ledge with dicey moves that may be at (or beyond!) their limit. Ankles break with falls of only a few feet, and I HAVE had rope stretch falls that would have had me hit if I wasn't paying attention, and curling myself up to avoid the hit. Someone with leass experience(I am not all that far along myself, either) may not comprehend "how" they can improve safety in falls, but they probably do get a gut feeling. That "might" account for that fear.....
It is a disservice to tell new climbers that there's nothing to worry about on TR.
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saxfiend
Oct 13, 2006, 1:29 PM
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Maybe you need a new partner(s). :roll:
It's just about impossible for me to imagine a situation where I would be screaming at the person I was seconding. It's not the leader's fault that the climbing is difficult and/or scary. And I sure wouldn't put up with crap like that if I was the leader. I have zero interest in climbing with a whiner who's going to spoil a great experience for me.
JL
EDIT after reading posts from clarki and happiegrrrl:
Clarki -- I don't think the OP was being an asshole. He was not reacting to the second being scared (which is understandable), but to the second yelling at him at the belay (which is inexcusable).
Happie -- good points. But as noted above, the way to deal with stuff like this is to talk about it calmly and get the belayer straightened out, not get in a fight on a belay ledge!
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shimanilami
Oct 13, 2006, 1:40 PM
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Two weeks ago, I was watching this guy second up the first pitch of a six pitch 5.7, shaking and swearing, dropping two cams along the way. I waited to see what would happen. He got to the belay. The leader took off again. I walked over and picked up a brand new yellow tcu and almost new orange tcu.
So I got to see a second guy lose his shit, and then lose some of the other guy's shit. I didn't witness the first guy losing his shit about the lost shit, but that shit would have been funny to see!
And I scored new shit!
Good shit, huh?
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shimanilami
Oct 13, 2006, 1:51 PM
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Two weeks ago, I was watching this guy second up the first pitch of a six pitch 5.7, shaking and swearing, dropping two cams along the way. I waited to see what would happen. He got to the belay. The leader took off again. I walked over and picked up a brand new yellow tcu and almost new orange tcu.
So I got to see a second lose his shit, and then lose some of the other guy's shit. I didn't witness the first losing his shit about the lost shit, but that shit would have been funny to see!
And in the end, I scored new shit!
Good shit, huh?
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iamthewallress
Oct 13, 2006, 2:02 PM
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Very cute. :lol:
Actions speek louder than panic attacks, and people don't usually do what they don't like for very long. This is true for people with a history of taking freakers out up climbs as well as for those that repeatedly freak their way up them.
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notapplicable
Oct 13, 2006, 2:20 PM
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In reply to: Getting back to how you seem to get this reaction alot, perhaps you are judging your second's abilities poorly, overestimating their abilities, or maybe there is some other reason they are angry at you by the end of the route that you don't realize. Some communication with them to ask them why they are angry at you might ease things a bit, but of course you might want to wait until the throb of adrenaline and fear has subsided and they can act like a human being again instead of a cornered animal
Every time I ask them why they are so pissed the response is usually along the lines of "that was hard as hell" or "why did you place gear during the crux, I couldn't it out?" ect.... Your probably right I don't usually think to much about anything other than if I can successfully lead the thing, mostly I operate under the opinion that if your grown and have been climbing for more than a year then I don't need to talk you out of things you want to do.
Your situation was different because you were struggling and being belittled because of it (not cool) but these guys and girl continue to climb with me to this day. Four of them have only done it once but one has lost it three times, like its a ritual or something. What confuses me is that they have all done it but never been mad for any period of time so I honestly don't think it is me. I think its bizarre, but that is why I asked to see if its very common.
In reply to: Unless they are still cursing you days later, let it roll off your back or gently remind them that they wanted to go on this route, or apologize for scaring them or something.
That is what I do but it just strikes me as odd behavior.
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