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fmd
Oct 27, 2006, 5:36 PM
Post #126 of 237
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In reply to: backup belay loop with prussic backup prussic to harness backup harness to chest harness back both to a two rope system back up one rope to ATC backup ATC to GriGri Back anchor to your car Back up belayer to a large stone Backup fears with helmet Backup Knowledge with Skills BACKUP YOUR LIFE WITH EVERY THING YOU GOT, WHEN YOUR TIME IS UP
ALL BACKUPS ON EARTH WILL FAIL.
Prove it!!!!
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jonescd
Oct 27, 2006, 6:14 PM
Post #127 of 237
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This accident was obviously related to the amount of harness use that Todd gave to his harnesses which was alot. Harnesses should be made to withstand those sorts of abuses and even a relative amount of age. Over the years I have seen harnesses become thinner, lighter, and more stitching breaking sooner. My first harness in 1987, a misty mountain, was the best made harness I've ever owned. There are still no ripped stitches or large frays (I don't still rap on it). The point is, that I could probably rappel on it today and the rap loop would not break under my body weight or three of our body weights together. I don't like 99% of today's harnesses for that reason (i've owned several petzls and the belay/rap loops are frayed badly and multiple stitches are hanging loose within 5 months of regular use). Most of todays harnesses are built more for performance and lightness than safety. Even Misty went lighter with most of their harnesses - which I immediatly noticed and was disappointed in. I suspect a change after this accident will occur in manufacturing -hopefully. If you are Misty Mtn. guys there is a market for you to return to your bullet strong harnesses of the past - my family is one of them. The hell with saving 2 ounces of weight -- Todd's accident didn't have to occur but I suspect he trusted his manufacturer to overbuild the harness well enough to accept his body weight or he wouldn't have rapped on that old loop at all without a backup.
If the harness was truly worn and the age was the factor then why didn't the tie-in loops fail on his leader falls long before his belay loop failed under body weight. I would like to know the exact model of harness he was in and see a picture of the stitching eventually. I suspect the worn stitching or the thickness of the loop was the main factor on this one - they just were not up to taking the kind of abuse of a Todd Skinner climbing granite chimneys and cracks every day. He could probably wear out a Petzl in 5 months - pretty expensive for a full-time climber with a family of harnesses.
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jonescd
Oct 27, 2006, 6:40 PM
Post #128 of 237
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This accident was obvious related to the amount of harness use that Todd gave to his harnesses which was alot. Harnesses should be made to withstand those sorts of abuses and even a relative amount of age. Over the years I have seen harnesses become thinner, lighter, and more stitching breaking sooner. My first harness in 1987, a misty mountain, was the best made harness I've ever owned. There are still no ripped stitches or large frays (I don't still rap on it). The point is, that I could probably rappel on it today and the rap loop would not break under my body weight or three of our body weights together. I don't like 99% of today's harnesses for that reason (i've owned several petzls and the belay/rap loops are frayed badly and multiple stitches are hanging loose within 5 months of regular use). Most of todays harnesses are built more for performance and lightness than safety. Even Misty went lighter with most of their harnesses - which I immediatly noticed and was disappointed in. I suspect a change after this accident will occur in manufacturing -hopefully. If you are Misty Mtn. guys there is a market for you to return to your bullet strong harnesses of the past - my family is one of them. The hell with saving 2 ounces of weight -- Todd's accident didn't have to occur but I suspect he trusted his manufacturer to overbuild the harness well enough to accept his body weight or he wouldn't have rapped on that old loop at all without a backup.
If the harness was truly worn and the age was the factor then why didn't the tie-in loops fail on his leader falls long before his belay loop failed under body weight. I would like to know the exact model of harness he was in and see a picture of the stitching eventually. I suspect the worn stitching or the thickness of the loop was the main factor on this one - they just were not up to taking the kind of abuse of a Todd Skinner climbing granite chimneys and cracks every day. He could probably wear out a Petzl in 5 months - pretty expensive for a full-time climber with a family of harnesses.
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lena_chita
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Oct 27, 2006, 6:57 PM
Post #129 of 237
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The thought that occurred to me while brushing teeth this morning:
If everything is getting so "fool-proof in these days that even toothbrushes have 'indicator bristles" that progressively discolor to let you know when it is time to replace the toothbrush, shurely it would be possible to devise some sort of "indicator thread" to run along the edges/over the belay loop& tie-in loops. Something that would change color with sunlight exposure, for example... or something that could be an indicator in another way, as in: "if you have rubbed through this thread, the harness needs replacing"
It will probably be useless b/c many people won't check it, or won't follow up on it (case in point-- my 2 months old toothbrush supposedly needs to be replaced. I will, really, I will do it soon. Just not TODAY)
--so don't flame me please. It was just an idle thought.
but still, it would be nice if there were some sort of a quantitative way of judging how good a harness (or any other gear) still is, vs. just "inspecting it regularly for signs of excessive wear" b/c let's face it, most people can't tell by looking just when there is a line crossed from "broken-in but still completely safe" into "potentially dangerous". Just saying X many years won't work for everyone b/c there is such a range of how people use it, whether they take a lot of lead falls or belay someone who does, climb on sharp rock, wear harness while walking, or whatever.
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epic_ed
Oct 27, 2006, 7:31 PM
Post #130 of 237
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Out of respect for Todd's family and friends it would be appropriate that the topic of this thread be left to just to commemorate Todd's life and to help share the stories of those who are grieving from his loss. Undoubtedly, we're all wondering how this happened and what could have gone wrong, but this thread -- as it is -- has become kind of a sacred spot in the ether for friends and family to come and try to cope. Maybe we can best honor that quest by taking up the discussion of the accident, itself, in another thread at another time.
My condolences to Todd's friends and family. I wish I could have known him.
Ed
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nomuse
Oct 27, 2006, 8:14 PM
Post #131 of 237
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"Indicator thread" was the first thing I thought of, too, when I heard that this had been a badly-worn belay loop. Heck, they've been putting similar stuff in tires for decades.
An odd note...did a theatrical show recently with Flying By Foy...and every harness I saw them using for flying actors or for the "Foy" himself was quarter-inch _leather_.
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knudenoggin
Oct 27, 2006, 8:23 PM
Post #132 of 237
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In reply to: A friend of mine had one fail. Fortunately in a spot where nothing bad happened. No fault to the harness company...this was also an old, ratty, worn out harness that should have been replaced.
In reply to: This accident was obviously related to the amount of harness use that Todd gave to his harnesses which was alot. Harnesses should be made to withstand those sorts of abuses and even a relative amount of age.
of the broken gear--which broke at a force orders of magnitude less than it was
designed to endure.
.:. I'm skeptical that the loop could've been so worn that an experienced
climber would continue to use it (and, presumably, for more than merely holding
body weight on rappel).
*knudeNoggin*
ps: It would be nice of Kate ("holdplease2"?) of SuperTopo could retrieve her
just-retired harness and send its belay loop to someone (SterlingJim or Grimbo)
for testing, so we can have a hard datapoint on what something which to at
least ONE user appeared to be roughly "95%" of full strength.
--rather than continue in guesswork. (The UIAA has tested old, ratty climbing
ropes, e.g., and found that they all held one severe (UIAA test) fall.)
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yankeebama
Oct 27, 2006, 8:23 PM
Post #133 of 237
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Well, I got a new harness after just 5 years because the waist webbing was fraying...so I'd cut it back/burn tight the endges...eventually it just got to short... Now I have a black Diamond..which I hate....whatever you call the mini loop that is none weight bearing but centers the rope...use to be permanent...but BD's needs to be double back...but it keeps coming out and then catching on the rope...which shifts my off center ...which leaves all my weight on one leg.
Any suggestions
thanks
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macherry
Oct 27, 2006, 8:42 PM
Post #135 of 237
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In reply to: backup belay loop with prussic backup prussic to harness backup harness to chest harness back both to a two rope system back up one rope to ATC backup ATC to GriGri Back anchor to your car Back up belayer to a large stone Backup fears with helmet Backup Knowledge with Skills BACKUP YOUR LIFE WITH EVERY THING YOU GOT, WHEN YOUR TIME IS UP ALL BACKUPS ON EARTH WILL FAIL.
humour attempt :?
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eaglesfn68
Oct 27, 2006, 8:47 PM
Post #136 of 237
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why not just have one harness for just belaying and one for climbing. so they dont get worn out that much.
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eaglesfn68
Oct 27, 2006, 8:47 PM
Post #137 of 237
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why not just have one harness for just belaying and one for climbing. so they dont get worn out that much.
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leezerdgirl
Oct 27, 2006, 9:07 PM
Post #138 of 237
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In reply to: why not just have one harness for just belaying and one for climbing. so they dont get worn out that much.
Either you're being funny or you're a sport climber.
Come to think of it, not much difference, is there? :)
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leezerdgirl
Oct 27, 2006, 9:08 PM
Post #139 of 237
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Double post. Gotta love the phantom error messages.
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cracklover
Oct 27, 2006, 10:17 PM
Post #140 of 237
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In reply to: ps: It would be nice of Kate ("holdplease2"?) of SuperTopo could retrieve her just-retired harness and send its belay loop to someone (SterlingJim or Grimbo) for testing, so we can have a hard datapoint on what something which to at least ONE user appeared to be roughly "95%" of full strength. --rather than continue in guesswork.
Knude, I think you may be referring to my harness, not Kate's. Anyway, I estimated my belay loop to be 95% good. But I tossed it, and it's probably been picked up by the trash collection people already.
GO
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jimdavis
Oct 27, 2006, 10:42 PM
Post #141 of 237
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Ok guys....time to climb off the short bus...take out your harnesses, and follow along with me here.
Look at the side profile on your belay loop...what do you see? Two full loops of webbing? Stitching going through 3 layers? Good, that's two independant layers of webbing...your belay loop is redundant!
Now, here's some info from the BD site
http://www.bdel.com/scene/beta/qc_kp.php
this link seems to be acting up...click SCENE> then BETA/ INFO > then KP.
In reply to: From the Black Diamond Harness Instructions: ♦ A Black Diamond harness belay loop can withstand 15 kN (3372 lbf) of force. CE requirements The CE required testing is a bit difficult to desribe, but basically, the belay loop must withstand 15 kN for a period of 3 minutes. Actual Black Diamond Test Data * Though our inline batch test rating is 3372 lbf, we regularly see belay loops test to over 6000 lbf, with a historical average of over 5000 lbf. ** Note: I've tested several other manufacturer's belay loops and they all are in the same ballpark for ultimate strength.
also from the bd site: http://www.bdel.com/..._al_detail.php#usage
In reply to: # When using belay and rappel devices, they should only be attached to the belay loop.
also on that page, a belay loop with a 75% cut tested to ~3k lbs!
this belay loop tested to 4800 lbs
http://www.bdel.com/images/scene/web.jpg
And the final work from Kolin P...
In reply to: A Final Word Is this incident going to cause every climber out there to start wanting two belay loops, or tieing a backup supertape belay loop in their current harness or throw their harness away altogether and buy a new one immediately? It shouldn't. Reputable manufacturer's make burly harnesses—bottom line—and don’t forget that there are some negatives/concerns about using two belay loops at once in some situations (i.e. tri-axial loading carabiners, etc.)—not good. Harnesses, and belay loops in particular are super strong for sure, but we can't forget that gear does wear out. Every climber is responsible to know the history of his or her gear and act accordingly. When people ask me about worn gear, or gear that's been dropped, or has undergone a strange or peculiar event, I always have to play the conservative card of "when in doubt, retire it"—because the last thing you want to be thinking of in the back of your mind when you're 20 feet above your last piece of sketchy gear is... "geez, I wonder if that's that biner that I dropped that time," or "I sure hope my harness is in good enough shape to withstand this monster whipper I'm about to take." It's not worth having to worry about—I personally have a hard enough time worrying about trying NOT to fall… Climb safe, KP
For more info about tri-axial loading on biners....aka: why you shouldn't clip biners into you tie in points....
http://www.rockclimbing.com/topic/118883 from this thread...
In reply to: If I remember correctly, the UIAA (I think) published a report in the last few years detailing several deaths that occurred due to belaying and/or rappelling using the harness points instead of the belay loop. Essentially, what happened is that the biner rotated, became stuck such that the gate was facing directly upward, and when the rope was weighted it pulled through the gate. In each of the cases locking biners were used, and in at least one case, the locking sleeve failed in shear. Using the belay loop is absolutely imperative in my book.
Loading a biner at 3 points, can esentially do the same thing as loading a biner over an edge...biners must be able to align themselves with a pull. Biners break all the time when they get loaded over an edge, or get torqued...there are numerous reasons to only clip a biner around 2 things.
The USMGA had a great article about this a while back...but they haven't renewed their website. If folks still want to see that article, I can scan it and get it back up online for a bit.
I really can't belive how you guys can disregard everything in you harnesses instruction manual, and your biners instructions....fail to see that your belay loops are redundant....etc.
It's kinda shocking that so many of you don't really understand how your gear works, and how it breaks.
Jim
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jonescd
Oct 27, 2006, 11:28 PM
Post #142 of 237
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Jim,
Some decent points made. Again when biners are clipped into tie-ins there still needs to be operator error to allow the biner to load on the gate. The possibility of triaxial loading breaking a biner with body weight is nonexistent - especially the way that biners are loaded when rappelling - not very triaxial with most harnesses. When you can give me a litmus test of when to retire a harness based on belay loop wear, I will change my personal strategies for rappelling. However, as posted earlier, not all lightweight harnesses are redundant and if they are it is often with inadequate resistance to even early wear for those climbing rough rock and chimneys on a frequent basis. Belay loops rub the rock more often than not when climbing. We can analyze this one but the fact is something wasn't beefy enough here - with a good harness it wouldn't happen- they stopped making those years ago with exception of a couple on the market. People are tradding in sport harnesses not very well designed to withstand the abrasions that take place in big wall. Yes the manufacturers want to say that these are overbuilt with their tests, but they should still test out to body weight even at 10 years to be worthy of buying - not that I would rappel on one that old but to give they safety buffer needed for extreme use situations like Skinners. No fingers pointed to single manufacturers but this emphasis has definitely been on thin and light the past 10 years - ropes have been on the same course and you now hear about more ropes failing than when 10.5 was the standard rather than 10.2 or 9.8. Climbers wanting to push harder and harder numbers have been sacrificing beefy nylon for light and thin - that has been the demand.
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tradmanclimbs
Oct 27, 2006, 11:48 PM
Post #143 of 237
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Anyone who thinks that rapping only exerts body weight forces on the gear is delusional. yes rapping down a smooth slab is pretty soft but backing over huge roofs near the start of your rap can cause a near leader fall situation. haveing your feet slip when getting started on the rap can cause a shock load. haveinge a serak or ice ledge break out from under you etc. I had a perfectly good rock ledge fall out from underneath myself and partner while standing at a rap station 500ft off the deck. you can bet that we both shock loaded that system. haveing your biner crossloaded over the buckel of your harness caus you were to paranoid to use the thing the way it was designed is just plain FCKN stoopid :roll:
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knudenoggin
Oct 28, 2006, 1:14 AM
Post #144 of 237
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In reply to: In reply to: ps: It would be nice ... for testing, so we can have a hard datapoint on what something which to at least ONE user appeared to be roughly "95%" of full strength. --rather than continue in guesswork. Knude, I think you may be referring to my harness, not Kate's. Anyway, I estimated my belay loop to be 95% good. But I tossed it, and it's probably been picked up by the trash collection people already. GO
May I recommend (call it counterbalancing your higher exploits :lol: ) some
dumpster diving? Oh, well ... opportunity lost.
The used-gear testing that has been done by various people with the means & smarts
sheds useful light on evaluation (nb: KP's check of exposed draws, e.g.!).
Maybe there should be some effort to collect retired harnesses to gain some
insight into residual strength (since that seems to be an item not so usually
checked?). The oft'-given advice "if you don't trust it, or doubt ..." really isn't
helpful; one needs to have a basis for such doubt/trust better than myths.
Perhaps this might be the sort of thing that could be organized under some The Lab
topic.
---------------
To the focus of this thread--Skinner's failed belay loop--, esp. after reading
KP's discussion, we really need good info on that particular loop. The usual
construction of these loops should leave a significant amount of material protected
from surface damage (abrasion, heat, UV), and be well strong enough to hold.
Where is that piece, now?
*kN*
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mr8615
Oct 28, 2006, 1:23 AM
Post #145 of 237
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In reply to: having your biner crossloaded over the buckle of your harness cause you were too paranoid to use the thing the way it was designed is just plain FCKN stoopid :roll:
Brilliant, my thoughts exactly. If you clip the biner to three things from three directions, it WILL cause triaxial loading. Triaxial loading is bad. Solution, use your gear in a way that jives with the manufacturer's specifications, use your belay loop. Back up your rappel, by all means. Be safe, as safe possible given circumstances. Be responsible for your actions, make the best decision possible given your situation. It's that simple.
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jimdavis
Oct 28, 2006, 2:40 AM
Post #146 of 237
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In reply to: Jim, The possibility of triaxial loading breaking a biner with body weight is nonexistent - especially the way that biners are loaded when rappelling - not very triaxial with most harnesses. When you can give me a litmus test of when to retire a harness based on belay loop wear, I will change my personal strategies for rappelling.
not all lightweight harnesses are redundant and if they are it is often with inadequate resistance to even early wear for those climbing rough rock and chimneys on a frequent basis. Belay loops rub the rock more often than not when climbing. We can analyze this one but the fact is something wasn't beefy enough here - with a good harness it wouldn't happen- they stopped making those years ago with exception of a couple on the market. People are tradding in sport harnesses not very well designed to withstand the abrasions that take place in big wall. Yes the manufacturers want to say that these are overbuilt with their tests, but they should still test out to body weight even at 10 years to be worthy of buying - not that I would rappel on one that old but to give they safety buffer needed for extreme use situations like Skinners.
Your really being foolish now.
You trust a belay loop to catch lead falls...but not to rap on?
As mentioned above, there are plenty of ways to generate lots of force when rapping. Again, your being stupid to use gear in a way you know isn't compatable with its design.
People tradding in sport harnesses? Your showing how green you are with this statement...you obviously buy more into marketing hype than anything else, here.
If it was a good harness it wouldn't have happened? Oh...really! How's that? You know how long that harness was used for? How intensively it'd been used? Your making bold statments, with no involvment with the accident, and no proof to backup your claims.
I can trash a harness fast, grinding it into rough chimneys as hard as I can...and you think the measure of a good harness is on that can take years of abuse of grinding it against rock 50+ days a year, for 10 years? Why, do you wanna climb in 5 inch webbing, covered in 3 layers of kevlar?
Belay loops rub the rock far more often than not? Not in all the time I've spent climbing, nor seen the harnesses of more expereienced climbers than me. Provide me with 5 pics of climbers grinding their belay loops against the rock, and I'll give your argument some merrit.
Harnesses, like all soft goods, have a usuable life. Retire then when you wear them out. Depending on whether you climb chimneys all day long, and grind your leg loops against slab sitting belays, or whatever...you'll wear your harness out faster than other. Just like you would a rope.
If you can't deal with retireing your harness when you wear it out...then you deffinitly shouldn't be using a rope either.
Lastly, you say they need to design a harness to withstand extreem use, like Todds uses....I guess they need to design extreeeeeeeem ropes too that last for years and years of hard use, and belay devices, and slings. With all this stuff that wears out after a few years of hard use...it's a wonder that more people haven't died with all this faulty equipment floating around! What do they expect us to do...retire it when it gets worn out???
If you can provide more than just a personal opinion, to go against the manufactures instructions of use for harnesses and biners...and more than silly claims about how you should be able to take a belt sander to a harness for 10 years....then I'll consider your points.
Until then, your not gonna convince anybody of much.
Jim
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jimdavis
Oct 28, 2006, 3:04 AM
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In reply to: the reason that most people give for placing your backup BELOW the belay device is because you can shockload your backup and depending on the device, damage your rope.
I've never heard such a claim before.
If you hav a device in...on rappel, above your device...and you fall on it...you won't shock load anything. #1 your probably on dynamic rope. #2 you by definition, can't take anything larger than a factor 1 fall on the backup.
So, since your talking about mechanical backups...like the Petzl basic or something...check out their manuals. They recommend it for use along a fixed line, as long as you don't climb past it....ie: don't create more than a factor 1 fall on it.
Now, most climbers don't use mechanical backups for rappeling. Most use friction hitches. The reason to put it below, is it never sees full weight...thus it's easier to release once weighted....it won't get out of reach either...and it lets you use both hands to control your descent (both below device).
Having a backup above a rope isn't gonna damage it....period.
Jim
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curt
Oct 28, 2006, 3:06 AM
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In reply to: ...Your really being foolish now... ...your not gonna convince anybody of much. Jim
Thank God that you two at least have that much in common.
Curt
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jimdavis
Oct 28, 2006, 3:13 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: ...Your really being foolish now... ...your not gonna convince anybody of much. Jim Thank God that you two at least have that much in common. Curt
Care to enlighten me about this? Being that your always correct...as we all know by now.
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jimdavis
Oct 28, 2006, 3:16 AM
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In reply to: yah -- i back up every rappell, and i trained my wife to do so as well. its a petzl shunt... a mechanical prussik... used for backing up a rappell or as an ascender in an emergency... bla blah blah!
Trained her to backup her raps, huh? When you gonna train her to roll over and play dead?
So you'd rather carry a large, metal, single purpose piece of gear....rather than...i dunno...say, a sling? there might be a reason people keep asking you what that speckled metal thing is...
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