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htotsu
Nov 1, 2006, 2:47 AM
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You know what, someone died here. Can we please dispense with the pissing contests and the attempts at humor? This man's family, friends, climbing buddies and admirers will come here at some point in search of the climbing community's thoughts and information on what exactly happened. Is this really what you want them to see?
Please stay on topic. If you do not have something to contribute that furthers the discussion on what happened or how it can be avoided in the future, please PM one another and leave the thread to those with additional info.
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mr8615
Nov 1, 2006, 3:21 AM
Post #178 of 237
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In reply to: Regarding this terrible and unfortunate accident... Whether one agrees with putting the biner in the tie-in point or not, the fact is, if Todd had done this, he'd be alive. Do you disagree with this statement ???
Whoa, this can NOT be assumed to be fact. If his belay loop was worn enough to fail, what's to say that his tie in points weren't worn enough to fail? I'll concede that with two points to fail, the likelyhood is lower, but it is far from a fact. It's a terrible thing to make people think that anything other than retiring this harness could have prevented this accident. Anything else is pure speculation.
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rrrADAM
Nov 1, 2006, 4:27 AM
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Fair enough reply... Putting it as an unasailable(sp?) "fact" is not accurate. I should have said "...more than probable..." instead.
Lastly... I feel really wierd arguing or debating this with a thread about the death of such a great person and climber... If I'd known my statement was going to require defending and arguing I would not have posted it.
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curt
Nov 1, 2006, 4:39 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: ...Your really being foolish now... ...your not gonna convince anybody of much. Jim Thank God that you two at least have that much in common. Curt Care to enlighten me about this? Because nobody but you two are reading your posts.
Excellent. Twice as many people care about our posts than yours.
Curt
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curt
Nov 1, 2006, 4:44 AM
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In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: ...Your really being foolish now... ...your not gonna convince anybody of much. Jim Thank God that you two at least have that much in common. Curt Care to enlighten me about this? Because nobody but you two are reading your posts...
Excellent. Twice as many as those who bother to read your drivel.
Curt
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jimdavis
Nov 1, 2006, 4:51 AM
Post #182 of 237
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In reply to: Regarding this terrible and unfortunate accident... Whether one agrees with putting the biner in the tie-in point or not, the fact is, if Todd had done this, he'd be alive. Do you disagree with this statement ???
Adam, if he'd clipped into his tie in points for all the years he'd been using the harness...the exact same thing could have happened...just to his tie-in points instead of the the belay loop. The issue, as we are lead to believe, is that his belay loop failed due to it being too old and worn.
If he'd directed all those years of abuse he's put on his belay loop, to his tie in points...maybe this would have happened long ago.
Saying that clipping his tie in points would have saved his life is a bold statement. And considering all the angles here....it's something that I don't think we should be saying. Lets try and learn from this, rather than blame someone who paid a large enough price. Whether or not that's what your trying to say...that's how it comes across.
Jim
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jimdavis
Nov 1, 2006, 4:55 AM
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In reply to: Excellent. Twice as many people care about our posts than yours. Curt
Good for you Curt, you might win Prom King now!
Jim
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curt
Nov 1, 2006, 5:14 AM
Post #184 of 237
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In reply to: In reply to: Excellent. Twice as many people care about our posts than yours. Curt Good for you Curt, you might win Prom King now! Jim
That would make you the Queen, bitch.
Curt
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thimblerigger
Nov 1, 2006, 5:19 AM
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Just do us a favour and wear protection.
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justinboening
Nov 1, 2006, 6:13 AM
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This is my first post, and, although I've been warned (to the same extent as everyone else has in this conversation, I'd assume), I've decided to proceed with great caution into this nearly overwhelming RC.com world. Be gentle.
First, I wish to echo those concerns already put forth as to the direction this conversation has pointed. Although the safety issues this accident has revealed are very much worth our critical investigation, the tone, I fear, has become inappropriate. Proceed with carefully investigated information if you are actually looking for progress. And remember, we are walking in the aftermath of someone's death.
Second, I'll share a simple observation. The sit harness, despite what seems to be popular belief, is not redundant. The safety of this piece of equipment will almost always hinge on the integrity of the belt. If the belt of a harness breaks, then all of the weight will be placed onto the back of the climbers legs, flipping her over to spill into the void. Think about it.
Third, the safety of the "belay loop" is not up for discussion. Check out BD's web-site for up-to-date information on their incredible strength; in fact, during one of these recent tests, BD tested a belay loop cut 90% through to (I believe) 777 lbf, significantly more strength than is needed to rappel safely. Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but no one is entitled to be wrong. Research, please.
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justinboening
Nov 1, 2006, 6:13 AM
Post #187 of 237
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This is my first post, and, although I've been warned (to the same extent as everyone else has in this conversation, I'd assume), I've decided to proceed with great caution into this nearly overwhelming RC.com world. Be gentle.
First, I wish to echo those concerns already put forth as to the direction this conversation has pointed. Although the safety issues this accident has revealed are very much worth our critical investigation, the tone, I fear, has become inappropriate. Proceed with carefully investigated information if you are actually looking for progress. And remember, we are walking in the aftermath of someone's death.
Second, I'll share a simple observation. The sit harness, despite what seems to be popular belief, is not redundant. The safety of this piece of equipment will almost always hinge on the integrity of the belt. If the belt of a harness breaks, then all of the weight will be placed onto the back of the climbers legs, flipping her over to spill into the void. Think about it.
Third, the safety of the "belay loop" is not up for discussion. Check out BD's web-site for up-to-date information on their incredible strength; in fact, during one of these recent tests, BD tested a belay loop cut 90% through to (I believe) 777 lbf, significantly more strength than is needed to rappel safely. Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but no one is entitled to be wrong. Research, please.
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philbox
Moderator
Nov 1, 2006, 9:59 PM
Post #188 of 237
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Very well said justinboening.
The tone of this thread has brought to mind a very interesting concept I have come across. The notion that in investigating accidents and risk management etc. should take on the following phraseology.
Change for the future not blame for the past.
It worries me that an analysis of a tragedy such as this one can be turned into a penis size competition. Let's all concentrate on the facts people, if we don't have those yet then we need to shut up until they find the black box flight recorder. I'm sure that those who are investigating this accident will pass on their knowledge in good time and when that happens then we can have a serious discussion of the facts.
It may be that the offending belay loop (if that was indeed the cause) may never be found, that would be a pity.
Of course it is always good to discuss various aspects of safety when these types of issues arise but please keep the chest beating out of the discussion.
If someone makes a point that another user does not agree with then a proper refutation, well researched is in order. A glib STFU type of put down is definitely not the way to go. Sure it is a little more time consuming to place a thoughtful response but it will pay dividends to the climbing community as whole for ages to come.
Take the chest thumping to the community forum.
Keep this forum clear, concise and to the point. Thus we may all benefit and become safer climbers.
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g
Deleted
Nov 2, 2006, 3:06 AM
Post #189 of 237
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While I rarely venture out of Community, I decided that I would once again.
In reply to: In reply to: For me... The relatively low static loads of belaying/rappeling negate issues of cross-loading, I like the benifit of having the ATC closer to me, . Low loads negate the issue of cross-loading...? But does it negate the fact that there are plenty of accidents out there caused by this? You like the benefit of having the ATC closer? Have you ever used an extended rappel and experienced its benefits?
I could design an experiment in a lab to demonstrate that you could trip and land with your dick in my ass, but out in the real world it is not all that likely. You can worry about it if you like, really, do what ever makes you feel comfortable.
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sreiser
Nov 2, 2006, 4:42 AM
Post #191 of 237
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My deepest sympathies to Todd's wife and children, all his climbing buddies, and Paul Piana who was his sidekick on the rock, having a beer, or cracking cowboy jokes around Lander, Wyoming.
The first time I ever met Todd was just after sunrise one Saturday morning maybe 15 years ago near Elephant Rock at City of Rocks, Idaho. At the time, Randy Vogel (Joshua Tree guide author/attorney) had been helping us get "Friends of City of Rocks, Inc." off the ground with help form the AAC. Anyway, Todd is walking past my car and I recognized him and struck up a conversation before we started our day of climbing. I immediately noted the warm friendly smile and instant friendliness and it was like connecting with a long lost friend. Todd was not just a really good climber but he was one of the cheeriest people to be around climbing that day, staying good humor, enjoying climbing, people and cracking jokes.
As time went on, I was to meet Todd again many times, such as climbing events in Lander, Wyoming, climbing the painful crystalline pocket faces of Wild Iris, the Tetons, Devil's Tower and other climbing events as well, and most often heard him and Paul sharing tales of domestic and foreign adventures. I enthusiastically supported the North Face of Everest Expedition he was on as well, and through it all, what really sticks is how uplifting his personality was and how much Todd loved life. Everytime I saw Todd, he was always smiling and full of enthusiasm.
I am sad to hear that Todd is no longer with us, and again my sympathies to family and all who knew him.
Sincerely,
Steve
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pink_chalk
Nov 2, 2006, 4:42 AM
Post #192 of 237
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In reply to: You know what, someone died here. Can we please dispense with the pissing contests and the attempts at humor? This man's family, friends, climbing buddies and admirers will come here at some point in search of the climbing community's thoughts and information on what exactly happened. Is this really what you want them to see? Please stay on topic. If you do not have something to contribute that furthers the discussion on what happened or how it can be avoided in the future, please PM one another and leave the thread to those with additional info.
Agreed.....
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pink_chalk
Nov 2, 2006, 4:44 AM
Post #193 of 237
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In reply to: You know what, someone died here. Can we please dispense with the pissing contests and the attempts at humor? This man's family, friends, climbing buddies and admirers will come here at some point in search of the climbing community's thoughts and information on what exactly happened. Is this really what you want them to see? Please stay on topic. If you do not have something to contribute that furthers the discussion on what happened or how it can be avoided in the future, please PM one another and leave the thread to those with additional info.
Agreed.....
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g
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Nov 2, 2006, 4:53 AM
Post #194 of 237
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In reply to: In reply to: I too would like to know about "plenty of accidents" caused by belaying or rapping with a biner through the two hard points? In no accident that I'm familiarity with has that happened, and in doing a search through several years of accident reports I couldn't find an example, nor did a google search un-cover anything but talk of the dangers. I'm certainly open to looking at all these real life examples. Here ya go, 30 seconds on google brought this up. [urlCarabiner failure during rappel]http://www.caves.org/section/vertical/nh/47/uiaa2.pdf
Edit/Add: I apologize for my grammatical error above, :"I'm familiarity" I missed the mistake when I change wording before posting.
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billl7
Nov 2, 2006, 5:05 AM
Post #195 of 237
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In reply to: In reply to: I too would like to know about "plenty of accidents" caused by belaying or rapping with a biner through the two hard points? In no accident that I'm familiarity with has that happened, and in doing a search through several years of accident reports I couldn't find an example, nor did a google search un-cover anything but talk of the dangers. I'm certainly open to looking at all these real life examples. Here ya go, 30 seconds on google brought this up. [urlCarabiner failure during rappel]http://www.caves.org/section/vertical/nh/47/uiaa2.pdf
There might be 1 accident in there about a problem that occured when the locker was through both waist and leg loops. The report actually seems more oriented towards a problem with the figure-of-eight leveraging against the gate of the locker biner. And the leveraging seems able to happen whether in the waist-leg configuration or with the locker biner just through the belay loop (as is also shown in that report).
A lever like that is a much more powerful beast than simple tri-axial loading.
Bill L
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overlord
Nov 2, 2006, 8:12 AM
Post #196 of 237
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In reply to: There might be 1 accident in there about a problem that occured when the locker was through both waist and leg loops. The report actually seems more oriented towards a problem with the figure-of-eight leveraging against the gate of the locker biner. And the leveraging seems able to happen whether in the waist-leg configuration or with the locker biner just through the belay loop (as is also shown in that report). A lever like that is a much more powerful beast than simple tri-axial loading. Bill L
well, for some reason, i cant access the pdf. anyway, if there is one accident involving tri-axial loading of a biner and one that was the result of belay loop failure... without any further data, it follows that they are both equally dangerous. and if you assume that the biner was safe and the belay loop wasnt (we know it was worn), it follows that the biner triaxial loading is more dangerous.
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g
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Nov 2, 2006, 2:33 PM
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In reply to: In reply to: There might be 1 accident in there about a problem that occured when the locker was through both waist and leg loops. The report actually seems more oriented towards a problem with the figure-of-eight leveraging against the gate of the locker biner. And the leveraging seems able to happen whether in the waist-leg configuration or with the locker biner just through the belay loop (as is also shown in that report). A lever like that is a much more powerful beast than simple tri-axial loading. Bill L well, for some reason, i cant access the pdf. anyway, if there is one accident involving tri-axial loading of a biner and one that was the result of belay loop failure... without any further data, it follows that they are both equally dangerous. and if you assume that the biner was safe and the belay loop wasnt (we know it was worn), it follows that the biner triaxial loading is more dangerous. |
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fitzontherocks
Nov 2, 2006, 2:51 PM
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Tried to post this last night, but it wouldn't take. FWIW, Petzl also recommends tieing in through waist band and rodeo bar, but rapping and belaying from the belay loop. See here: http://en.petzl.com/petzl/SportProduits?Produit=160. Check either "Advice on harness use" or the .pdf "Climber's sit harness general notice."
What I wanted to voice last night was echoing htotsu's comments. I see this terrible tragedy as an opportune reminder for all of us--regardless of experience level-- to step back and re-examine both gear and practices. For myself, I immediately checked my harness thoroughly. It's fine, so I don't need to destroy it and rush out and buy another. As for practices, I've re-examined my hesitation to rap off the belay loop, and have decided to go with what the manufacturers recommend. I think.
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fitzontherocks
Nov 2, 2006, 2:54 PM
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http://en.petzl.com/petzl/SportProduits?Produit=160
Sorry-- didn't do a good cut and paste on the link.
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karlbaba
Nov 2, 2006, 4:38 PM
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It will be interesting to know how old Todd's harness was. Sometimes old shoes and harnesses become so comfortable, familiar and lucky that we just keep using them when they seem like medical waste to everyone else.
I'm for the "perfect storm" theory since belay loops are so bomber. Here's my list of factors.
1. Chemcial corrosion. The belay loop is right near where the piss hits the sky. God knows how many leaks a guy like Todd took without removing his harness.
2. UV weakening. Whether nylon is inside or outside makes a big difference. I've ripped 1 inch tubular webbing in half with my bare hands when it was left outside on a climb for too long, and even on the shady side of the valley, like on Space Babble and Church Tower. Todd was outside for very long and repeated exposures by anybody's standards.
3. Friction weakening from girth hitching the daisy to the belay loop and probably hang doging or at least hang belaying from it over and over.
4. Belay loops might not have been as bomber in the days when Todd bought his harness, which could have been a free prototype for all we know.
5. Slight shock loading from coming to a stop on a static rope.
6. Yada yada
For me, a very important lesson in this is
LISTEN TO YOUR GUT!
It's no accident that Jim and Todd were discussing the weak harness a few days before the accident. Last time I was on El Cap I just started thinking "I almost always manage to take one stupid fall on C2 on El Cap, this would be a perfect place for me to screw up cause it's so steep and clean...." Five minutes later...I'm in space. Ripped a screamer halfway through.
Todd had already ordered a harness so I guess he was listening to his gut. Sometimes it's just your time. So sorry that Todd had to leave loving folks behind on his new grade 8 journey.
Peace
Karl
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