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munky
Nov 14, 2006, 5:04 PM
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I started as an outside climber and still feel that climbing in a gym isn't really climbing. With that said, I climb 2-3 days a week in a gym for "training" purposes. I will admit that most days I have fun there and always end up getting a good workout. But I feel that climbing in the gym is just monkeying around, literally. Almost every hard move requires a big pull, lock off, dyno type of trick, where as outside these moves aren't as common, with delicate more precise movements being the norm on harder routes. The point of this post is to ask how many people feel that climbing on plastic is detrimental to their climbing in the fact that it makes you lead with your arms and climb much more upper body oriented instead of leading with your feet and really weighting them out. I always feel that I get the flow back on real rock soon enough but find that it takes a few days. The first couple of days I really suck outside. I wonder if we all just climbed outside all of the time if we would get better. Or is the strengh gained in the gym irreplaceable in an outside context for the regular working joe.
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epoch
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Nov 14, 2006, 5:10 PM
Post #2 of 37
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I think that you may have answered your own question. If you have to opportunity to climb outside 5 - 7 days a week, I'd recommend that you do just that.
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ao
Nov 14, 2006, 5:12 PM
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I'm the exact opposite- started climbing indoors, and have found that after a weekend of climbing outside, the first day back at the gym, I stink. But it's never the other way around. It may have to do with what your strengths/weaknesses are. I'm stronger technically, weaker w/ upper body strength. So climbing outside will most likely work to my advantage...unless it's a big pumpy overhang! :)
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yazey
Nov 14, 2006, 5:20 PM
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My buddy and I would play a game when we worked out in the gym. We are outside climbers. I felt the gym was killing my technique as well, and being short the routes were never fun, but only frustrating. Try this for a good work out: Screw the routes. Colors mean nothing, and gym route ratings are just silly. Rule #1 Nothing over your head. Can't touch it till you are eye to eye. This will get your feet working more. Rule #2 Tell those ass gym rats to STFU and go boulder something when they start telling you you're off route. Rule #3 Best no hands rest wins. Rule #4 When you get good, take away the jugs and go smaller and smaller.
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ja1484
Nov 14, 2006, 5:21 PM
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Gym Rats do indeed perform poorly outside - because they're gym rats. This is like saying swimmers don't do well in cross country skiing. Well, no sh*t. It isn't said enough: Indoor and outdoor climbing are not the same activity. Outdoors, your route is not telegraphed with large colored ticks. You can't scope the entire route from the base. The outdoor protection system is much more involved and dependent on the skill of the climber. Outdoors climbing is a hostile environment - insects, animals, rockfall, weather, etc. all combine and can work against the climber. Now, that said, I climb indoors 2 - 3 times a week and outdoors 2 - 3 times a month as time allows. Indoor gyms allow me to train strength, endurance, and balance techniques that are very applicable to outdoor climbing in a much more feasible setting. As a full time graduate student who works part-time on the weekends, it's difficult for me to muster even half a day to make a day trip to the nearest crag, which is roughly 1hr. of driving one way. Gyms have their benefits, but don't mistake them as a substitute for outdoor climbing. They're another training aid, and that is all.
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gandolf
Nov 14, 2006, 5:23 PM
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I agree that climbing in the gym does not directly relate to outdoor climbing. But it does improve your strength, which does help outdoors. I would rather climb outdoors too, but climbing in the gym is better than spending time on a hangboard only. At least for me, at my level.
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ebonezercabbage
Nov 14, 2006, 5:32 PM
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In reply to: This is like saying swimmers don't do well in cross country skiing. Well, no sh*t. Hardly. Why do i find such snobs on the darn site. We climb. I dont care if its boulders, plastic, rock, mountain, ice, tree, metal.....climbing is climbing. Get off your high horses and admit it. You people are the kind of ppl that say climbing everest with oxygen is easy. Really pisses me off.
(This post was edited by ebonezercabbage on Nov 14, 2006, 5:33 PM)
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bizarrodrinker
Nov 14, 2006, 5:58 PM
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I can't stand climbing in the gym, and only do it as a last resort (or with the gf). Not to sound like a dick, but I love seeing the people that act like asses in the gym when they climb the red Vwhatever, outside getting tossed hoplessly off a V1- and throwing a temper tantrum like WTF that is NOT a V1. I find freakin hilarious.
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hirvimaki
Nov 14, 2006, 6:15 PM
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I climb both indoors and outdoors - mostly indoors because I live in a city and have a job. Sure it'd be great to be able to climb outside anytime I want, but it doesn't work that way. And although there is certainly a difference in real rock versus plastic, my climbing on plastic is not detrimental to my outdoor climbing. In fact, the gym is a perfect place to work on specific weaknesses since it is such a controlled environment. I find that improvement I make on real rock or on plastic translates very well to the other.
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olderic
Nov 14, 2006, 6:27 PM
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A lot depends on the quality of the routes inside. If they are set by people who are outside climbers - especially if thay are outside climbers who have projects that they strive to recreate - then the inside experience can be pretty realistic and transferable. Likewise if the setter is tying to force a move/techniqe/swquence (at least a more subtle one then lock off and crank) then learning that indoors may be a good way to add it to your bag of tricks.
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konaboy
Nov 14, 2006, 6:33 PM
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I started climbing at the local gym this past February when I moved to Washington, at the time I didn't know anyone who climbed so I just bouldered solo for the first three or four months before I started meeting people in the gym and going on trips to climb outside with them. The time in the gym was definitely beneficial as it clued me in to the different types of holds you can expect to see when climbing and the different ways in which you can grab them, there's also no doubt that the strength gained from climbing in the gym helped me to enjoy climbing outdoors as I was more capable. Would I have gained the same knowledge and muscle climbing outside instead of inside each of those days? Perhaps, but there's something to be said for the mileage you put in climbing in a gym and the myriad of different positions and moves you become exposed to. And to those wielding their flamethrowers -- some folks enjoy gym climbing as an activity unto itself and don't care for real rock. What's wrong with that? Nothing IMO.
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bizarrodrinker
Nov 14, 2006, 6:45 PM
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In reply to: And to those wielding their flamethrowers -- some folks enjoy gym climbing as an activity unto itself and don't care for real rock. What's wrong with that? Nothing IMO. Word So many good points in the past couple of posts I almost forgot I was on RC.com
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j_ung
Nov 14, 2006, 7:17 PM
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In reply to: We climb. I dont care if its boulders, plastic, rock, mountain, ice, tree, metal.....climbing is climbing. I couldn't agree more. The difference between gym climbing and other styles is like the difference between crack climbing and other styles. It's still climbing. It's just very different. I suspect that the OP doesn't spend as much time on steep routes outdoors as he does in, hence the specific differences he's noticed in his climbing.
(This post was edited by j_ung on Nov 14, 2006, 7:18 PM)
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lena_chita
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Nov 14, 2006, 7:29 PM
Post #16 of 37
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Who do we need to generalize everything? I happen to know a few guys who climb like we all dream to climb-- both inside on plastic and outside on real stuff. They are often the ones who do the least talking and putting people down, online or in real life, LOL.
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zeke_sf
Nov 14, 2006, 7:29 PM
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if all they do is climb inside, then that nifty generalization is probably true. probably they are going to suck (like I do) at the trickier crack climbing. the really good ones will probably school you on some overhanging crap. I feel like my gym has decent routesetters, so the grades I climb in the gym and outside are fairly commensurate. your gym may suck or you have better access to outdoor routes. it's an easy distinction to make to feel superior to somebody else.
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ja1484
Nov 14, 2006, 9:22 PM
Post #18 of 37
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In reply to: Hardly. Why do i find such snobs on the darn site. We climb. I dont care if its boulders, plastic, rock, mountain, ice, tree, metal.....climbing is climbing. Get off your high horses and admit it. You people are the kind of ppl that say climbing everest with oxygen is easy. Really pisses me off. I think your problem is that you assume too much. Either that, or you're stupid. The ensuing events will tell us which one. a) I never said gym climbing wasn't climbing or that it was somehow less noble than rock climbing. I said that indoor and outdoor climbing do not directly correlate. You're right in that the distinction between indoor and outdoor climbing is much like the distinction between bouldering and trad, or face and slab. b) I never said anything about Everest. I don't mountaineer. c) Untwist your panties. All I'm saying is that indoor wall climbing and outdoor rock climbing are different. I wouldn't presume to claim one's superiority over the other because that's entirely subjective. Calm down.
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percious
Nov 14, 2006, 9:42 PM
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I'd say your gym is only as good as those who set the routes. I set 5.6-5.11 at my gym, and I definitely have some 11s that aren't reachy, but do require some strength. Most of my 7s and 8s are all about balance. How many hand-foot matches do you encounter at your local gym? How tall are the setters? Do they climb outside? Are there other alternative gyms? -percious
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nutstuffer
Nov 14, 2006, 9:57 PM
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First let me say I am lucky, I live 15 min from a crag. Even so, often times, I cannot get to the crag every time I need to. Solution is a simple systems board, that will easily produce a workout necessary to keep your fingers strength. I have climbed in a few gyms over the years, and it was ok. But a system board in my opinion is a far better use of time, to increase finger strength. As far as learning to climb rock, there is no substitute. You can not learn to climb in a gym. Vertical mileage on different stone is required. The best way to learn to climb rock is top roping on real rock.
(This post was edited by nutstuffer on Nov 14, 2006, 10:00 PM)
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docburner
Nov 14, 2006, 10:12 PM
Post #21 of 37
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Maybe my gym is pretty good. I find that my ability in the gym directly correlates to my ability outside. (even cracks!) But I find that people that don't climb at least once a month outside probably don't have a similiar correlation. I would say they are 90% the same and as long as you do both often enough to figure out that 10% then it should correlate alright. The major difference I see is route finding, but most routes have a ton of chalk on them so it isn't that hard for most climbs.
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coolklimber
Nov 14, 2006, 10:45 PM
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I find that I use my legs more when climbing outside, and have to resort to my arms more inside. This may be just because of the types of climbs, or the routes I do. >Cam
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zeke_sf
Nov 14, 2006, 11:01 PM
Post #23 of 37
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"Crack Climbers suck on Overhangs" "Sport Climbers suck at Cracks" "Sandstone Climbers suck on slick Granite," etc. all these statements may or may not be true, but they are largely just meaningless generalizations. I believe OP is trying to say a climber's ability will vary on different terrain, but the original statement that gym climbing is not climbing is as inflammatory as it is untrue.
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musicman1586
Nov 14, 2006, 11:35 PM
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In reply to: ] Almost every hard move requires a big pull, lock off, dyno type of trick, where as outside these moves aren't as common, with delicate more precise movements being the norm on harder routes. I think this may be a problem with the gym you go to and the route setters there. I've climbed in gyms that the problems were just as you described: long powerful moves. That's kinda how inexperienced route setters make hard routes. You get a good group of setters together though and you can find some fairly technical and enjoyable routes/problems. My biggest problem with gym climbing is not that, as our staff has gotten pretty good in my opinion at setting fairly "realistic" moves, but that the feel and shapes on plastic are nothing like what you find outside IMO, especially when it comes to stuff like smearing, "small" crimps, things of that nature. I work in a climbing gym, so my endurance stays pretty good, as does my technique, but whenever I go long periods without being able to climb much (like this damn semester) when I get back on real rock it's hard to trust my feet and hands on stuff that I know is good, it's just not "plastic good". I climb primarily on limestone, and you don't find many holds that represent the usual features I find out at my crags, so maybe it's just the nature of the type of rock I climb on though.
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fancyclaps
Nov 14, 2006, 11:37 PM
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It may not be the OP's beef with gym climbing, but MY beef with gym climbing is that it does not correlate enough to outdoor climbing. I know that they will always remain fundamentally different, but I feel that most of the problems in the gym are the same thing. Especially in the harder grades. Basically, the harder the grades get the smaller the holds you have to lock off on to make a reach. There is very little technique or finesse involved. Granted the gym I climb in is relatively small, and they set very few routes per semester. I dont climb in a gym for the sake of climbing in a gym. I climb in a gym so that I can improve my technique, control, and strength for outdoors. S o I guess my gripe is that my gym sets for power dudes who want to sit around and have campusing contests on the overhung juggy routes and not for the weekend warriors who are dreaming of real rock.
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