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traddad


Nov 16, 2006, 5:36 AM
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Jim Webb
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....Is talking like a "Conservative Democrat" I can support:
In reply to:
America's top tier has grown infinitely richer and more removed over the past 25 years. It is not unfair to say that they are literally living in a different country. Few among them send their children to public schools; fewer still send their loved ones to fight our wars. They own most of our stocks, making the stock market an unreliable indicator of the economic health of working people. The top 1% now takes in an astounding 16% of national income, up from 8% in 1980. The tax codes protect them, just as they protect corporate America, through a vast system of loopholes.
Incestuous corporate boards regularly approve compensation packages for chief executives and others that are out of logic's range. As this newspaper has reported, the average CEO of a sizeable corporation makes more than $10 million a year, while the minimum wage for workers amounts to about $10,000 a year, and has not been raised in nearly a decade. When I graduated from college in the 1960s, the average CEO made 20 times what the average worker made. Today, that CEO makes 400 times as much.

In the age of globalization and outsourcing, and with a vast underground labor pool from illegal immigration, the average American worker is seeing a different life and a troubling future. Trickle-down economics didn't happen.

Good stuff.


(This post was edited by traddad on Nov 16, 2006, 5:36 AM)


bobd1953


Nov 16, 2006, 7:38 AM
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Re: [traddad] Jim Webb [In reply to]
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The average American worker has lost wages and quality of life over the last 20 years.

Productivity is up and wages are down. The gap between the hard working middle class is growing with no end in sight.

Maybe just maybe things will change in the near future.


collegekid


Nov 16, 2006, 4:49 PM
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Re: [bobd1953] Jim Webb [In reply to]
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In reply to:
The average American worker has lost wages and quality of life over the last 20 years.

Productivity is up and wages are down. The gap between the hard working middle class is growing with no end in sight.

Maybe just maybe things will change in the near future.

Things will change if WE make them change. All I know is that we have 2 years to make some real changes to this country.

Let's all make sure the dems pull through on their promises of fixing this country's (above mentioned) problems.


Partner rrrADAM


Nov 16, 2006, 5:22 PM
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Re: [collegekid] Jim Webb [In reply to]
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Its not too dificult to see the future...

We (the US) buy more than we sell, mostly from China... Money can be exchanged for Gold... He who has the Gold makes the rules.


We've had the 'Gold' for a long time, and we used that to get our way in the world, but there will come a time, when we are the one's looking up to China with a hand out.


I hate to say it, but that's what's gonna happen is we stay on the present course. I am NOT bashing China in any way, they as a people value education more than we do (not all can get it, but there's alot of em), are more industrious, as we have comparitively grown fat and lazy. Math and Science is going to be dominated by Asia, primarily India and China, as their students are becomming todays scientists and doctors. Pretty soon, the only jobs left here willbe service and construction oriented, as not enough of us, compared to Asians, will be qualified for the 'high-end' jobs, and the 'lowest' end jobs will have already been outsourced.

The problem is the choices we make... We want cheap goods, so we pay for them, and that money leaves the US, because it costs too much to produce it here cheaply as Americans will not work 'cheaply'. Its a 'catch-22', as the only way to keep the money here is for us to pay for the cost of American wages to produce the goods.




There was a time when the American work ethic was 'take pride in your work', and if he made a mistake he'd more than likely stay on his own time to fix it... Now, it is to make the highest wage possible, for as little work possible, with as many benifits as possible, and you sure as hell better pay him overtime or he'll fix his mistake the next day... This translates to expensive products or services... Ask youselves why all the airlines in the US are constantly going bankrupt, and losing billions a year... Where do you think those billions are going, maninly into the pockets of the employees, at all levels not just the management ???


We have been, and still are greedy and lazy as a whole, and we will pay for it if we don't wise up.


(This post was edited by rrradam on Nov 16, 2006, 5:26 PM)


atg200


Nov 16, 2006, 8:34 PM
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Re: [rrradam] Jim Webb [In reply to]
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I really don't buy in to the "the world is flat" style nonsense. i've done a lot of IT consulting for huge companies - mines like rio tinto, newmont, anglo, defense contractors like lockheed martin and northrup grumman, railroads like burlington northern and union pacific, etc. offshore outsourcing at those places has always been for very unskilled positions. i have never, ever dealt with a programmer from india or china who wasn't trained in the usa and expecting usa wages that could do anything like the work a good usa trained programmer can do. higher education, the culture of innovation, and resources are just nowhere near what we have, and it totally shows. i think this is a costruct of journalists and politicians who don't actually understand a thing about the tech industry.

our corporate culture is not lazy - quite the opposite. we are most definitely greedy and that is a huge deal, but lazy? i've worked on 6 continents and over 20 countries, and american workers by far and away work harder, longer, and just expect to work harder than anywhere else i've been to. doesn't buy as much except for stress and unhappiness though.

the thing that kills us is our blindness to the financial realities of what is happening around us. we hear all this talk about companies having to ruthlessly cut costs and benefits to be competitive, yet these same companies are posting record profits and executive compensation packages are through the roof. WTF? the large company my wife works for is cutting benefits across their entire company, yet just posted a 2.5 billion dollar profit last year - double what they had the year before. the people who decided to cut the benefits programs should go to jail and have their personal fortunes turned into benefit funds for being fear mongering liars.

CEO packages are just insane. these assholes are making many millions of dollars a year merely because they have the reputation to become a CEO. their pay scale is basically agreed upon by boards of directors made up of people who are or want to be CEOs, and have a vested interest in seeing CEO compensation packages go through the roof. there are CEOs making ten of millions of dollars a year while their companies are breaking even or even doing worse while slashing employee benefits. could these companies not find someone just as qualified to lose money for a few million dollars a year less? giving a CEO a one million dollar a year paycut(for a guy who already may make around 17 million - look at asshole in chard of pfizer http://www.forbes.com/...0autofacescan06.html) still means this guy makes more money than god, yet 840 average employees wouldn't have to pay that $100 a month health insurance premium hike.

here is my proposed CEO compensation plan reform: if a company cuts benefits to employees and the CEO give himself a raise, the CEO immediately goes to a federal pound me in the ass prison for a year at his own expense and the rest of his fortune is split between all employess of the company. after that the CEO must spend a year working as a janitor in the same company for the minimum wage, keeping in mind that his personal fortune has been distributed among the other employess of the company so he truly has to live at the minimum wage level. do you think you would see much more insane corporate thievery if something like this happened?

the asshole corporate robber barons really need to start suffering if anything about this culture of insane greed is going to change.


Partner rrrADAM


Nov 16, 2006, 8:40 PM
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Re: [atg200] Jim Webb [In reply to]
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Good points on capitalism run ammok.


Love the 2nd to last paragragh Andy... Very creative, and I think it would be equally effective.

Are you in the US now ??? Last I remember you were in one of the 'ztans... Uzbek I think.


(This post was edited by rrradam on Nov 16, 2006, 8:41 PM)


atg200


Nov 17, 2006, 7:42 AM
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yeah, i am in the usa, and it sucks. haven't left the country since june - my longest stretch in country in about 6 years and its driving me nuts.


bobd1953


Nov 17, 2006, 7:47 AM
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Re: [rrradam] Jim Webb [In reply to]
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In reply to:
Andy wrote: the thing that kills us is our blindness to the financial realities of what is happening around us. we hear all this talk about companies having to ruthlessly cut costs and benefits to be competitive, yet these same companies are posting record profits and executive compensation packages are through the roof. WTF? the large company my wife works for is cutting benefits across their entire company, yet just posted a 2.5 billion dollar profit last year - double what they had the year before. the people who decided to cut the benefits programs should go to jail and have their personal fortunes turned into benefit funds for being fear mongering liars.


The average American worker has lost wages in the last 6 years.

Productivity has risen, profits has risen and CEO pay has risen.

Wages are down, no insurance, less paid time off...wtf?

Reno thinks things are great.Wink


curt


Nov 17, 2006, 9:02 PM
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Re: [atg200] Jim Webb [In reply to]
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Nice post, Andrew--I agree completely.

Curt


unabonger


Nov 18, 2006, 7:42 AM
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I'm pissed at Dominion Power right now, (they sent a power surge through my house that ruined my clothes dryer) so I thought I'd offer this disgusting tidbit. Here's a government sanctioned monopoly that is busy ruining the environment and raping their customers, employees, and stockholders:

from: http://www.citizen.org/...ionCorpProfile04.pdf


in 2003, compensation for Dominionís top five executives increased by 174 percent to $17.7 million, more than 5 percent of Dominionís net income, compared to their 2002 earnings of $6.5 million or half a percent of Dominionís net income. Dominion executives experienced this extraordinary windfall in a year when the financial performance of the company was less than stellar: net income in 2003 dropped 77 percent from the previous year.


reno


Nov 18, 2006, 9:32 AM
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Re: [bobd1953] Jim Webb [In reply to]
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Reno thinks things are great.

What an idiotic statement.


bobd1953


Nov 18, 2006, 10:21 AM
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In reply to:
Reno wrote: Economy: New records seemingly every other day for the Dow, unemployment at 4.4%, low inflation, near-record home ownership, controlled interest rates.... Yep, that's it: Worst. Economy. Ever.

You wrote the above on another thread stating that everything rosie. You have no idea what the big picture looks like.

Wanker! Wink


curt


Nov 18, 2006, 11:08 AM
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Reno thinks things are great.

What an idiotic statement.

Since it appears to reflect your opinion, that goes without saying.

Curt


reno


Nov 18, 2006, 11:36 AM
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Re: [bobd1953] Jim Webb [In reply to]
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Reno wrote: Economy: New records seemingly every other day for the Dow, unemployment at 4.4%, low inflation, near-record home ownership, controlled interest rates.... Yep, that's it: Worst. Economy. Ever.

You wrote the above on another thread stating that everything rosie.

ANOTHER idiotic statement.

Nothing in the above says "everything rosie" [sic]

Just when I think I've heard the most idiotic and uneducated thing possible, Bob says something else.


bobd1953


Nov 18, 2006, 12:41 PM
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Re: [reno] Jim Webb [In reply to]
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Reno's world....the war is good.
Iraq had/has WMD's
Iraq and al-Qaeda were connected before 9/11/01
Mission Accomplished in Iraq
Democracy will prevail in Iraq
The economy is great.
Republican will prevail in the elections
and so and so on

Wink


(This post was edited by bobd1953 on Nov 18, 2006, 12:58 PM)


reno


Nov 18, 2006, 2:28 PM
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Re: [bobd1953] Jim Webb [In reply to]
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3 posts, 3 idiotic statements.

If you were playing baseball, you'd have 3 strikes and be out.

Go sit on the bench now.


Partner rrrADAM


Nov 18, 2006, 2:46 PM
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Re: [bobd1953] Jim Webb [In reply to]
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I agree with much of what you write Andy, my post is the way things are trending and shifting... In 10-20 years, I think that the 'gold' will be in Asia, and as I said, "he who has the gold makes the rules".


We kinda had this discussion a couple years ago in Community about education...

My sister in law worked in academia in bio-med, and she noted that almost 1/2 of her coworkers were from Asia or Asian decent. She is now in the private sector of bio-med, as academia doesn't pay, and same thing.

Go to hospitals, as we are starting to see more and more doctors of asian decent, same with engineers, scientists, mathmeticians, etc...

Yes, we do have some of the best educational institutions in the world, and in the previous discussion it was brought up that over 1/2 of graduate student at the top 5 universities for science are NOT from America... This was disputed by some, only to have graduate students on this site working on their PhD's only reply to confirm this. It has nothing to do with quotas or money, it has to do with who scores higher and is a better student.

The fact is, they tend to have a culture that values education much more than our youth currently does... Our youth tend not to take an advanced calculus course in highscool as an 'elective', and will NOT normally choose to say on a friday night, "no, I can't go hang out with you guys, since I'm going to stay home and work on my advanced studies". The culture is different, and I believe we will pay a price for it.

Even people who get their degrees in other countries often come here to work, as they can make more here than at home, since so much $$$ is involved in corporate medicine/bio-med/research, etc... in the USA compared to the same in less 'capitalistic' (read greedy) societies... Even in Canada, where niversity is free, doctors will work in the states since they can make more money. Does all that money stay here ??? Nope, some of it is sent to the families of those working here who emain in their home countries... More 'gold' leaving.


I am NOT saying we (USA) are stupid, I am saying that we are trending down in science and technologies education as compared to where we were 20 years ago, and Asia, or Asians studying here or in other western countries, is trending up in the same areas, comparitively spreaking, and that in 10-20 years the effects of that will be dramatic.


(This post was edited by rrradam on Nov 18, 2006, 2:51 PM)


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