Forums: Climbing Information: Technique & Training:
Core strength-the definitive guide
RSS FeedRSS Feeds for Technique & Training

Premier Sponsor:

 
First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 Next page Last page  View All


granite_puller


Nov 27, 2006, 11:28 PM
Post #1 of 81 (15054 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 5, 2006
Posts: 28

Core strength-the definitive guide
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Ok, i got sick of reading threads about specific exercises, and I want to know what people think about how the proper way to build core strength is. Also, lets just take it for granted that developing core strength will help your climbing no matter what, even if you could be making bigger gains training other weaknesses. So, my question is this: what is the proper way to train core strength for climbing, using exercises that are held for a period of time (tv watchers, planks, levers if you are strong as piss) and require maximum stabilization, or exercises that burn out your abs in a short burst (perhaps incline situps with so much weight that you can only do 5-8 until failure)? I have been thinking about this and it seems like what you mostly look for in your core during cliimbing is stabilization, but only for very short period of time (looking at it from a boulderer's point of view). However, it seems like workouts that hold a specific position that has all of your core firing, like a lever (lets assume that you can do it for a sustained period), would not really apply to doing moves where you need maximum strength for a short period of time (like a deadpoint move). Also, I have had considerable difficulties trying to develop a workout that does create failure in a short period of time and would be interested if anybody else had any good ideas on one that works and is somewhat climbing/stabilization specific.


rockjunkie2


Nov 28, 2006, 6:27 AM
Post #2 of 81 (14960 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 14, 2006
Posts: 16

Re: [granite_puller] Core strength-the definitive guide [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

beware of too much weight on incline sit ups I messed up my lower back with only 25 pounds. i have since changed my workout. all my exercises lead to failure before 20 reps in the third set.my favorite exercise to rest my elbows on something 4 feet off the ground and lift my legs to my chest ankle weights are key. this is for max strength. I then like to have medicine ball thrown while doing crunches. this increases power.


microbarn


Nov 28, 2006, 6:54 AM
Post #3 of 81 (14938 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 12, 2004
Posts: 5920

Re: [granite_puller] Core strength-the definitive guide [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

the most definitive guide to exercises I have is here:
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/exername.php

go to the site and search for Abdominals, Lower Back, and Middle Back.

Vary your workouts between all the exercises because realistically you will have unpredictable situations in the real world. If you work your core in different ways, then you will be ready for any situation.


lena_chita
Moderator

Nov 28, 2006, 8:09 AM
Post #4 of 81 (14865 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 27, 2006
Posts: 5861

Re: [granite_puller] Core strength-the definitive guide [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I have to admit that the more I read about "core strength" the more confused I get about it. Some people talk about core strength and mean abs, others mean back, and to me it means neither...

Why don't we start with some definitions here?

In my mind (maybe wrongly) "core strength" is produced by the working of a combination of muscles, whatever it is that makes you able to keep your legs up to climb a roof--esp. a big roof where you have to get both your hands and your feet on the "ceiling" so to speak, and be able to stabilize the body and extend for the next move. In other words, "core strength" doesn't paly much role on slabby or vertical climbs and comes into play more and more with increasing steepness of the route, culminating in being most important for roofs...

And I cannot see how sit-ups, inclined or not, will help core strength, if defined as above, b/c it seems to me that they work more of upper/outer abs muscles, and you would need to work lower abs, "inside levels" of muscles and also the muscles that go from the pubic bone or sternum to the sides, and back. Leg lifts seem make more sense (I'm thinking of a situation when you slip off a foothold and have to bring your legs back up onto the roof), some sort of twisted/side crunches/leglifts, if such thing exists (B/c pretty much every move under the roof you need to turn one hip in in order to make the move) and the L-hangs/front levers, as inadequate as they are, seem to be at least somewhat closer to what you need than sit-ups...

But why not just climb roofs? That would be most climbing-specific training, wouldn't it? B/c none of the exercises I just mentioned are exactly like the combination of stabilizing the body, twisting it, and making an extension to reach the next hold. That's what I am thinking of trying right now -- making some easy sequences on the roof at the gym and trying them as part of 4x4s. Our gym is just finishing an awesome big roof that is just a few feet off the ground and can be adjusted to be severely overhanging or completely horizonal.


perionychium


Nov 28, 2006, 8:24 AM
Post #5 of 81 (14847 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jan 26, 2006
Posts: 37

Re: [lena_chita] Core strength-the definitive guide [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

lena_chita wrote:
But why not just climb roofs? That would be most climbing-specific training, wouldn't it? B/c none of the exercises I just mentioned are exactly like the combination of stabilizing the body, twisting it, and making an extension to reach the next hold.

I second this. Although building ab strength has never been a forte of mine, climbing roofs and overhangs have improved my core strength more than situps ever could.


osnium


Nov 28, 2006, 8:54 AM
Post #6 of 81 (14808 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Feb 7, 2004
Posts: 14

Re: [granite_puller] Core strength-the definitive guide [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Hey there,

Heres what I suggest. Goto the website www.dragondoor.com and check under the strength tab. Then goto body weight training. There is a list of core strenght exercises you can work up to. Obviously, no one normal person can do them all. But since ive first went to this site, i can almost do a front lever and can do flags. I am also improving my pinch strenght alot.
Since this section is you working against your body weight, your muscle mass reaches a maximum weight and size at a lower point so you dont weigh too much for climbing. called isometric training. Bruce Lee and other super fit people use and used it. John Gill was another who used it. IF you dont know who he is, go find out, hes quite a story.
MD


granite_puller


Nov 28, 2006, 8:54 AM
Post #7 of 81 (14809 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 5, 2006
Posts: 28

Re: [lena_chita] Core strength-the definitive guide [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I agree with you, climbing roofs is a very good way to build core strength. I know when I was first starting climbing I hated roofs, mostly because i couldnt keep my core tight enough to cut my feet, move efficiently, etc. Just forcing myself to climb on them did build a good ammount of climbing specific core strength. But, as I have progressed i feel like my core is at a point where simply climbing overhangs does not stress my core to the point where I am consistently getting stronger. So, I think that at this point it is important to bring in exercises that while may not be as climbing specific as "just climbing" is, are much more effective at stressing your core to the point of failure (bringing gains in strength). Also, you never know whether your progression in climbing is due to your core getting stronger or your technique/ movement skills getting better. I have found that as you progress in climbing you reach a point where gains in technique and movement skills start to have less and less effect on your progression (but I would say that this does not come until you reach a fairly high level).


lena_chita
Moderator

Nov 28, 2006, 9:40 AM
Post #8 of 81 (14761 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 27, 2006
Posts: 5861

Re: [granite_puller] Core strength-the definitive guide [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

granite_puller wrote:
I agree with you, climbing roofs is a very good way to build core strength. I know when I was first starting climbing I hated roofs, mostly because i couldnt keep my core tight enough to cut my feet, move efficiently, etc. Just forcing myself to climb on them did build a good ammount of climbing specific core strength. But, as I have progressed i feel like my core is at a point where simply climbing overhangs does not stress my core to the point where I am consistently getting stronger.

I see what you mean-- I don't really feel that my "core" is working on an overhang -- I mean it is working, sure, but other muscles -- e.i. arms, give up and fail before I start feeling that any of the "core" muscles are about to give up. That's why I specifically said that I am trying big horizontal roof sequences now -- b/c there I definitely feel that the core is working and is the weakest part of my system, LOL.

granite_puller wrote:
So, I think that at this point it is important to bring in exercises that while may not be as climbing specific as "just climbing" is, are much more effective at stressing your core to the point of failure (bringing gains in strength). Also, you never know whether your progression in climbing is due to your core getting stronger or your technique/ movement skills getting better. I have found that as you progress in climbing you reach a point where gains in technique and movement skills start to have less and less effect on your progression (but I would say that this does not come until you reach a fairly high level).

I guess I see this differently.

I don't really care if my progression is due to "increase in strength" or "increase in technique" b/c I think they are not two separate things, but rather are connected and both progress together as you get to be a better climber. You can never train "just technique" or "just strength" in a climbing-specific manner.

Secondly, when I am thinking of "technique training" (with the caveat above-- there would be strength component to it by default) I am thinking of a way of making body move more efficiently-- use less effort, for the lack of a better word, make the move smoother, more graceful, more "intergrated". And no matter how I look at it, an L-hang or sit-ups won't make me move more gracefully though the roof.

And lastly, I think you are mistaken when you equate "technique training" with "just climbing". Just climbing is more climbing-specific training than sit-ups, but training climbing with a specific purpose in mind is more specific still. Does it make sense? Why do you need to do sit-ups to the point of failure to bring up climbng-specific core strength? Why not do roof climbing to failure? 4x4s on roof problems, or something...


dfoote07


Nov 28, 2006, 10:18 AM
Post #9 of 81 (14691 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 2, 2006
Posts: 50

Re: [osnium] Core strength-the definitive guide [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I second going to dragondoor.com and looking at body weight strength. They have some awsome stuff. I hope that help. I also found it interestng, that they have a step by step system to doing levers and panchers. I started a while ago and they are a great work out, but short and hard.

Derek


granite_puller


Nov 28, 2006, 12:15 PM
Post #10 of 81 (14621 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 5, 2006
Posts: 28

Re: [dfoote07] Core strength-the definitive guide [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Hey, i checked out the dragondoor website, but i was wondering what specific articles you guys are refering to. I read the one about dragon flags and the death wheel or whatever, but they dont really decribe the exercises just say they are described in the bulletproof abs book. Have either of you bought that book, and if if so is it worth it. This type of training seems extremely specific to the kind of stength you need for climbing as it is mostly all body weight based, failure comes at a small number of reps, and its focus is to make you more lean rather than building excessive bulky muscles. sounds like the perfect recipie for climbing to me. In regards to the discussion about technique and strength I guess what I was trying to say is that climbing overhangs (even steep ones) does improve your technique and strength but only to a point. I felt like my climbing had reached a level where just climbing was producing little gains (judging strictly from the grades I was climbing). I guess this meant I was "plateauing". When I started to do exercises that isolated cetain muscle groups (abs, arm strength, grip strength) i started to progress again. But keep in mind that I reached that piont only after climbing a whole sh## load.


lena_chita
Moderator

Nov 28, 2006, 1:41 PM
Post #11 of 81 (14562 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 27, 2006
Posts: 5861

Re: [granite_puller] Core strength-the definitive guide [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I looked at the dragondoor.com and wondered the same thing about the exercises... But OMG, Russian kettleweights, Soviet underground body-builders, Comrade this or that... Never thought I'd see that! I think I know that the death wheel is-- I remember trying to use it as a kid. It was my cousin's -- he was one of those underground body-builders, LOL. if the death wheel is what I think it is, it was a pretty cool abs exercise. And by the way, for all the talk of not bulking up and building lean muscles, have you seen pictures of those guys? They are as wide as they are tall!

Maybe I am just not at the level where the strength card becomes the ultimate thing, so I just speak rubbish. I am obviously speaking theoretically, projecting my experience so far onto higher grades. I know that everyone always brings up WOLFGANG GULLICH and Action Directe and one-fingered one-armed pull-up training that he did in order to climb it as the ultimate proof that without strength you can't be a really good climber.

I am no Wolfgang, obviously. But looking from down here where the mere mortals live, it just seems strange that as you progress through the grades you reach some magical level where all of a sudden movement training doesn't help anymore and you need to train strength only. What would you say this magical grade is? 5.12? 5.13? 5.14? Or do you think that the level is different for every person? In a way ,the fact that everyone brings up Wolfgang as example makes me think that this is an exception rather than the rule...

I am thinking of an analogy with figure-skating or gymnastics, and when put that way, it just doesn't seem right to say that once you reach Olympic-level, you don't need to practice your jumps, flips and stuff anymore, you need to bench-press and do sit-ups for strength. If anything, it seems to be the other way around, you are already strong at that level, and you need to practice activity-specific movement more to get to even more-advanced moves.


granite_puller


Nov 28, 2006, 2:14 PM
Post #12 of 81 (14541 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 5, 2006
Posts: 28

Re: [lena_chita] Core strength-the definitive guide [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Ok, this is my opinion, and should be taken as such. I am not trying to say that there is this illusive turning point where all movement training becomes superfluous, there is only a point where you can make bigger gains more quickly by training strength. I am mostly a boulderer, and I have noticed that as moves get harder they often force you into one specific type of beta. For instance, say on a V3 boulder problem you have a number of holds, and numberous differnt betas. Some people find it easier to make lots of moves off smaller holds while others prefer to make bigger moves off the larger holds available. Now think of a V10 boulder problem where there is a blank section of wall with a huge lockoff required to go from one hold to the next. I think that if you dont have the strength required there are two approaches to doing that move. One, you try and try and try until your lockoff strength improves. But (provided you can hold onto the holds) your strength will not increase that fast as you are not directly stressing that one area (your lockoff strength) to failure (because you have your feet taking weight off etc). Now if you went into the gym and committed yourself to training your lockoff you could directly address that one specific weakness without involving any other factors (in this case your feet). Then when your lockoff improved you would probably be able to do the move and it would probably take less time than just trying the move over and over. But, in the end it all comes back to self examination. If you cant hold the holds on the problem then you have no buisness training to do the lockoff, likewise if your technique is so horrible your feet always fall off technique is limiting you, not strength. But I do believe that there are instances where strength training will give you bigger benefits faster than climbing alone will, which I assume that most people in this forum have already realized and that is why they train in the first place.


jt512


Nov 28, 2006, 4:38 PM
Post #13 of 81 (14474 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21893

Re: [granite_puller] Core strength-the definitive guide [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

granite_puller wrote:
Ok, this is my opinion, and should be taken as such. I am not trying to say that there is this illusive turning point where all movement training becomes superfluous, there is only a point where you can make bigger gains more quickly by training strength. I am mostly a boulderer, and I have noticed that as moves get harder they often force you into one specific type of beta. For instance, say on a V3 boulder problem you have a number of holds, and numberous differnt betas. Some people find it easier to make lots of moves off smaller holds while others prefer to make bigger moves off the larger holds available. Now think of a V10 boulder problem where there is a blank section of wall with a huge lockoff required to go from one hold to the next. I think that if you dont have the strength required there are two approaches to doing that move. One, you try and try and try until your lockoff strength improves. But (provided you can hold onto the holds) your strength will not increase that fast as you are not directly stressing that one area (your lockoff strength) to failure (because you have your feet taking weight off etc). Now if you went into the gym and committed yourself to training your lockoff you could directly address that one specific weakness without involving any other factors (in this case your feet). Then when your lockoff improved you would probably be able to do the move and it would probably take less time than just trying the move over and over. But, in the end it all comes back to self examination. If you cant hold the holds on the problem then you have no buisness training to do the lockoff, likewise if your technique is so horrible your feet always fall off technique is limiting you, not strength. But I do believe that there are instances where strength training will give you bigger benefits faster than climbing alone will, which I assume that most people in this forum have already realized and that is why they train in the first place.

I don't climb V10, but I have redpointed 5.12d and performed all the moves on a handful 5.13a-b's. On none of these routes can I remember a static lock-off being the key to doing any of the hard moves. Every hard move I can think of required a coordinated application of strength, balance, movement, and timing. Harder routes tend to by more dynamic, not less, and so timing and coordination tend to gain importance relative to lock-off strength.

A problem of training lock-off strength in isolation is that, you won't be accurately replicating the body positions and movements used in climbing. A lock-off done on a bar with your feet hanging is different than a lock-off done with the assistance of the feet on the rock, with momentum generated from the pelvis, and ending with latching a hand hold; that is, a lock-off done while climbing.

I suspect that you are falling into the classic error of believing that the reason you fail on moves is that you aren't strong enough, when, in reality, you lack the complex combination of movement skills needed to complete the move. Rather than doing lock-offs to failure, boulder to failure.

Jay


collegekid


Nov 28, 2006, 6:11 PM
Post #14 of 81 (14433 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jul 6, 2002
Posts: 1852

Re: [granite_puller] Core strength-the definitive guide [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

I don't have a definitive guide, but here's a glimpse at how I've been training.

lately i've been doing exercises that combine complex movements that require core stabilization.

Example: T-Pushups.

Holding two light dumbells, do a standard pushup. At the top of the pushup, lift one hand until you make a T with both of your arms (at the same time, turn your hips to the side). The combination of pressing, twisting, and holding your body as flat as possible creates a great abs workout. These are incredibly taxing due to the number of muscles worked.

One-arm pushups also require incredibly good core strength. Any movement that is assymetric will require good core strength. (I.e. one-arm pullups).

I think one of the most key core movements for climbing is twisting/obliques. Example exercises: "Wood chop" where you perform twists with a cable (like swinging a baseball bat); side bends, where you hold a heavy weight in one hand at your side and rock side to side.


collegekid


Nov 28, 2006, 6:19 PM
Post #15 of 81 (14430 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jul 6, 2002
Posts: 1852

Re: [jt512] Core strength-the definitive guide [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

jt512 wrote:
Harder routes tend to by more dynamic, not less, and so timing and coordination tend to gain importance relative to lock-off strength.

A problem of training lock-off strength in isolation is that, you won't be accurately replicating the body positions and movements used in climbing. A lock-off done on a bar with your feet hanging is different than a lock-off done with the assistance of the feet on the rock, with momentum generated from the pelvis, and ending with latching a hand hold; that is, a lock-off done while climbing.

I suspect that you are falling into the classic error of believing that the reason you fail on moves is that you aren't strong enough, when, in reality, you lack the complex combination of movement skills needed to complete the move. Rather than doing lock-offs to failure, boulder to failure.

Jay

Jay, I think you oversimplify the problem. Perhaps the reason you think that harder routes require more dynamic movement is because you lack the strength to perform the moves statically? As my strength improves through physical conditioning (campus board, weights) I note a definite improvement in static holding power, such that previously dynamic movements become static.

Also, bouldering to failure is a great way to get injured (and not train effectively).

A better way to train is to do a number of routes/boulder problems within your ability level--preceded by a good warm up and either campus board or hang board training (not to failure). Then, when it comes time to work the project route, work it as hard as possible, taking advantage of dynamic movement or whatever it takes to get the send.


granite_puller


Nov 28, 2006, 8:49 PM
Post #16 of 81 (14380 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 5, 2006
Posts: 28

Re: [jt512] Core strength-the definitive guide [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Jay, this is getting a little off topic from my original intention is starting this thread, but that is alright. So, I would disagree with you strongly that there are no hard routes that involve lockoffs because, theoretically any move can be locked off. Thus, by training your lockoffs and becomeing better at them you can lock off those hard moves that others would have to dyno for, and avoid the time consuming process of trying the move over and over again until it is learned. Also, I think (strictly opinion) that this kind of general strength training will be more beneficial for your climbing in the end as now you have lockoff strength that can be applied to any route, while if you are simply trying one move to failure it is stressing very specific muscles and only training them to do that one move (you will gain some general strength but it will most likely be less than if you were isometrically training lockoffs). My view is that if you try enough times you could do any V8, but only when you have trained enough and become strong enough to do them consistently can you truly call yourself a V8 climber, so general strength seems to me to be more applicable to my climbing goals. Do you think that training in such a way as you suggest is really training for strength or training specific moves? Something to think about anyways. Also, a benefit to training isometrically is it takes less time so you can spend your time on the real rock, which for most of us is precious, sending instead of working moves.


overlord


Nov 29, 2006, 12:23 AM
Post #17 of 81 (14350 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Mar 25, 2002
Posts: 14120

Re: [granite_puller] Core strength-the definitive guide [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

pilates. word. it does wonders. at least it did for me.


lena_chita
Moderator

Nov 29, 2006, 9:08 AM
Post #18 of 81 (14245 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 27, 2006
Posts: 5861

Re: [granite_puller] Core strength-the definitive guide [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

granite_puller wrote:
I have noticed that as moves get harder they often force you into one specific type of beta. For instance, say on a V3 boulder problem you have a number of holds, and numberous differnt betas. Some people find it easier to make lots of moves off smaller holds while others prefer to make bigger moves off the larger holds available. Now think of a V10 boulder problem where there is a blank section of wall with a huge lockoff required to go from one hold to the next.

I am not convinced that there is ever a situation where one move, and one move only, is the way to do some problem. Yes, the choice of hand and foot-holds gets smaller and smaller as the routes get harder. But in watching some really good climbers work a difficult move (I am talking guys who climb hard 5.13-5.14), it seems that even when *I* see something as "one move"-- from this hold to that, with nothing in between -- different guys do it somewhat differentlly. Yes, they all end up going from hold 1 to hold 2, and using footholds 3 and 4, but one person throws for it, the other does it staticly, the third person goes staticly too, but the feet are positioned somewhat differently, even if they are on the exact same holds, person 4 turns the hips differently than person 2, but has feet positioned exactly like person 2, and so on --- the actual move ends up being quite different.

Going back to ActionDirecte -- it has been redpointed now by a number of guys. Has every single one of them trained exactly like Gullich and done the move in the exact same way?


ANd the last thing-- a question that I have. Let's put aside the movement training/strength debade for now and go back to the original post.

Let's just say that for whatever reason you want to isolate a specific group of muscles and quickly/efficiently increase the "strength" of that group of muscles. Is training to failure the best/quickest way to increase strength? What science is this based on? How exaclty do you define a muscle strength? Contraction strength, isometric hold strength, number of reps you can do before failure? And which one is the element that you need for climbing?

I keep going back to the "feel" of core muscles working while climbing roof, I can feel it very clearly and visualize it right now, and I can't quite figure out anything that isolates those muscles and works them in the same way.


jt512


Nov 29, 2006, 10:42 AM
Post #19 of 81 (14208 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21893

Re: [collegekid] Core strength-the definitive guide [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

collegekid wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Harder routes tend to by more dynamic, not less, and so timing and coordination tend to gain importance relative to lock-off strength.

A problem of training lock-off strength in isolation is that, you won't be accurately replicating the body positions and movements used in climbing. A lock-off done on a bar with your feet hanging is different than a lock-off done with the assistance of the feet on the rock, with momentum generated from the pelvis, and ending with latching a hand hold; that is, a lock-off done while climbing.

I suspect that you are falling into the classic error of believing that the reason you fail on moves is that you aren't strong enough, when, in reality, you lack the complex combination of movement skills needed to complete the move. Rather than doing lock-offs to failure, boulder to failure.

Jay

Jay, I think you oversimplify the problem. Perhaps the reason you think that harder routes require more dynamic movement is because you lack the strength to perform the moves statically? As my strength improves through physical conditioning (campus board, weights) I note a definite improvement in static holding power, such that previously dynamic movements become static.

Why would you strive to climb more statically!? This isn't 1970. Dynamic moves are usually (always?) more efficient than static ones. Even if you can do a move statically, you save energy by doing it dynamically; and thus, if you can do it dynamically, you should. I'm way more interested in working on my dynamic movement skills than on improving my "static holding power." Every climber I know who does non-climbing-specific strength training climbs too statically ("too" in the sense that they could be climbing higher grades if they learned to climb more dynamically). I suspect that the training reinforces their tendency to climb too statically.

In reply to:
Also, bouldering to failure is a great way to get injured (and not train effectively).

I don't know how you interpreted my "boulder to failure" statement (which, I admit, was a bit glib). You can certainly pick a level to work at, and do problems at that level until you fail at that level. That is not a recipe for improvement, not injury.

Jay


jt512


Nov 29, 2006, 11:26 AM
Post #20 of 81 (14174 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21893

Re: [granite_puller] Core strength-the definitive guide [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

granite_puller wrote:
So, I would disagree with you strongly that there are no hard routes that involve lockoffs...

I would disagree with me too, if that was what I had actually said.

In reply to:
...theoretically any move can be locked off. Thus, by training your lockoffs and becomeing better at them you can lock off those hard moves that others would have to dyno for, and avoid the time consuming process of trying the move over and over again until it is learned.

Huh? Why do you assume that you'd have to do the dynamic move over and over again?

In reply to:
Also, I think (strictly opinion) that this kind of general strength training will be more beneficial for your climbing in the end as now you have lockoff strength that can be applied to any route...

You're making some very weird assumptions in this post. Dynamic movement skills are just as generalizable as static movement skills. In my experience (which is just that -- my experience), climbing even at the 5.11 level requires the ability to effectively execute dynamic moves. There are occasionally moves that cannot be done statically because the reaches are too far, and there are frequently moves that you could do statically, but wouldn't want to because they can be done dynamically, and hence more efficiently, saving strength. If dynamic movement skills weren't generalizable, then it would be practically impossible to on-sight 5.11's.

In reply to:
...if you are simply trying one move to failure...

Who here, besides you, is talking about trying one move to failure?

In reply to:
My view is that if you try enough times you could do any V8, but only when you have trained enough and become strong enough to do them consistently can you truly call yourself a V8 climber, so general strength seems to me to be more applicable to my climbing goals. Do you think that training in such a way as you suggest is really training for strength or training specific moves?

First of all, you've picked up some weird, unjustified ideas of what I think is effective climbing training. What I actually think is that you can't separate climbing-specific strength from climbing movement; the former is an integral component of the latter. You say that you aren't a V8 climber until you are "strong" enough to climb V8 consistently. Your statement suggests that you think strength is the main component necessary for climbing harder boulder problems. It isn't. You could have all the crimp strength, core strength, and lock-off strength in the world, but you won't able to boulder V8 until you can consistently execute V8 moves. Besides strength, you need balance, power, timing, the ability to select and utilize the best hand and foot holds, etc. Your training should focus on learning these integrated movement skills.

In reply to:
Also, a benefit to training isometrically is it takes less time so you can spend your time on the real rock, which for most of us is precious, sending instead of working moves.

(Rhetorical "huh?")

Jay


jt512


Nov 29, 2006, 11:35 AM
Post #21 of 81 (14168 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21893

Re: [lena_chita] Core strength-the definitive guide [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

lena_chita wrote:
Let's just say that for whatever reason you want to isolate a specific group of muscles and quickly/efficiently increase the "strength" of that group of muscles. Is training to failure the best/quickest way to increase strength? What science is this based on? How exaclty do you define a muscle strength? Contraction strength, isometric hold strength, number of reps you can do before failure? And which one is the element that you need for climbing?

These are great questions.

In reply to:
I keep going back to the "feel" of core muscles working while climbing roof, I can feel it very clearly and visualize it right now, and I can't quite figure out anything that isolates those muscles and works them in the same way.

The fact that you have to apply horizontal pressure to the footholds seems to me to be the factor that makes the move difficult to replicate using normal strength-training apparatuses (apparati?), but I'm no kinesiologist.

Jay


billcoe_


Nov 29, 2006, 11:58 AM
Post #22 of 81 (14152 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jun 30, 2002
Posts: 4668

Re: [jt512] Core strength-the definitive guide [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

jt512 wrote:

Why would you strive to climb more statically!? This isn't 1970. Dynamic moves are usually (always?) more efficient than static ones.

I always love reading your posts JT as you, more than 99% of the folks out there in RC.com land, has his sh*t together. But, please share: I've found that generally the hardest thing on many climbs is just stopping and sticking the pro. How have you learned to do the clips on your routes dynamically?

Regards:

Bill


sidepull


Nov 29, 2006, 12:31 PM
Post #23 of 81 (14137 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Sep 11, 2001
Posts: 2335

Re: [lena_chita] Core strength-the definitive guide [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

lena_chita wrote:
Let's just say that for whatever reason you want to isolate a specific group of muscles and quickly/efficiently increase the "strength" of that group of muscles. Is training to failure the best/quickest way to increase strength?

I'm also no kinesiologist, but it seems to me that working to failure is generally a strategy for hypertrophy (increasing the size of the muscle) rather than strength (increasing the ability to recruit more fibers to generate greater force). Note that the division between the two is somewhat artificial, it's more appropriate to think of different types of strength and muscle development as complimentary. Still, the generic goal of a climber is to be, pound for pound, as strong as possible. This usually doesn't mean developing big muscles but really strong powerful muscles. This rules out hypertrophic training as an ideal, continual tool for climbers.

So, if you're looking for a quick way to increase strength, low intense reps with lots of rest are a better way to go than training to failure. This can also be a good recipe for injury, that's why a more holistic strategy (e.g. Rockprodigy's article) allows for safer and more continuous increases because it addresses each element of strength in a phased approach that reduces the likelihood of injury while allowing the climber to develop the muscles in a climbing-appropriate way.

I'm sure I've screwed up a lot of my definitions so, for a more correct version, read Performance Rockclimbing. Sorry.Crazy


jt512


Nov 29, 2006, 7:53 PM
Post #24 of 81 (14059 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21893

Re: [billcoe_] Core strength-the definitive guide [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

billcoe_ wrote:
jt512 wrote:

Why would you strive to climb more statically!? This isn't 1970. Dynamic moves are usually (always?) more efficient than static ones.

I always love reading your posts JT as you, more than 99% of the folks out there in RC.com land, has his sh*t together. But, please share: I've found that generally the hardest thing on many climbs is just stopping and sticking the pro. How have you learned to do the clips on your routes dynamically?

Regards:

Bill

I don't do them dynamically, but I do try to do them, as much as possible, while hanging from a straight arm, which requires no static lock-off strength, and therefore would not benefit from lock-off training.


granite_puller


Nov 29, 2006, 10:46 PM
Post #25 of 81 (14026 views)
Shortcut

Registered: May 5, 2006
Posts: 28

Re: [jt512] Core strength-the definitive guide [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

So, as numerous people in this thread have mentioned "i am no kinesiologist" but I am a climber who has progressed over time due to hard work. I know for a fact that certain times i got stuck in a plateau where just climbing wasnt giving me much improvement. I have found specific strength training in a number of forms to address a number of issues (core strength, grip strength, etc.) has been invaluable in helping me break through those plateaus. Movement training is important, and it takes time to devlop it, but once it is developed to a certain degree the returns that you get out of "just climbing" (i am unsure what movement training as you call it really entails beyond climbing) start diminishing. If you dont believe me try doing some strength work and see how much lighter, stronger and more confident you feel, and see if your climbing doesn't improve. I guarantee it will.

First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 Next page Last page  View All

Forums : Climbing Information : Technique & Training

 


Search for (options)

Log In:

Username:
Password: Remember me:

Go Register
Go Lost Password?



Follow us on Twiter Become a Fan on Facebook