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drfelatio
Nov 28, 2006, 1:01 AM
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Yeah, I was real sad to hear about this. I had only been to Torrent a couple of times to hop on stuff at the 11 wall, but it was great each time I went. I guess I'll have to pay to get back on Bandolier!
The people were great everytime I went there but I'm sure the owners saw something different. Maybe not. Maybe they have some pretentious notion of what climbing and climbers should be like and decided to shut it down when their standards weren't being met. Not having met the owners myself I wouldn't know. Not that any of that is really relevant. It's their land and their business. They can run it how they want and while I'm saddened by their decision, I respect it.
(This post was edited by drfelatio on Nov 28, 2006, 4:20 AM)
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feanor007
Nov 28, 2006, 2:53 AM
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read the thread if you havn't, Mark provides a pretty good reason as to why he came to the descision
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endercore
Nov 28, 2006, 3:14 AM
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http://www.redriverclimbing.com/viewtopic.php?t=7697&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=
bummer. I can't blame him tho.
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drfelatio
Nov 28, 2006, 4:19 AM
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For those of you that don't want to read the whole thread (i.e. lazy asses  ), here is what the guys at Torrent said about why they closed down:
"I have to respond to some of our family decisions. People do not live here and therefore do not understand. I have allowed climber's to climb on the property for eight years. The first three to four years, the climbing community was smaller, more friendly. They helped my father-in-law, stopped and talked to the owners, and respected the wishes of the owners. These climbers still exist and I know them. But when The Red became mainstream, there has been an influx of more climbers. The more I see, the more inconsiderate are the people. This crag has become numb to what allowed the climbing in the first place.
I raised hell about disrespect just before Roctoberfest. People were not abiding by the Rules. They still do not, so we closed sport and traditional climbing. What I feel climbers should think about is (1) why should I even have to post these rules, they are simple and just plain respect for your neighbor. If I have to post these rules, where does the problem lie. (2) What if this was your property. I used to get people that would be courteous, property friendly, and last but not least: human.
Just a couple of examples: Weekend before last, there was a dog tied up all day beside the van under the No Dog sign.
This past week: The worst impact was on Wednesday. I was showing friends around the property (Our Bridesmaind in our wedding, here husband and here 14 year old daughter). There is a female climb to the left of Paranoia pissing in my yard, under the rock house, in front of all of us. First of all, I put in my yard a Port-o-let, for the climbing community. This female was too damn lazy to walk down the hill and use it. Secondly, she is pissing under the rock house where the rain will not remove her sweet smelling urine (respect for the property). And lastly, I did not need to walk up on this with my friends. What can you say: "Oh that is just a climber, just ignore it" (Respect for owner and family).
Then there was a different female climber that let her dog out to go do it's business in my yard and put it back in her van before she was going to climb. She was dismissed from the property Then there was another group of climbers who brought their dog and let it out that same day to do it's business in my yard. What part of No Dogs do people not understand.
Like I say, I do not have to get angry or have friends and family embarrassed by the actions of climbers. I know there is a great community out there. Maybe, this community can or maybe they cannot educate young, inconsiderate people. I do not have to wory about it, I tried since this spring.
With that said, it is not an economic desicion. It is a decision based on human decency.
The other issue was a guy that was guiding on my property this weekend. He did not have the courtesy to ask, and they did not donate. I was there. He asked his clients (5 or 6 of them) if they had money to donate. They said no. That tells you something about guides educating their clients to the rules of a private crag. Someone ended up in thowing in spare change they had. So for a couple of quarters this guy made money and was quite arrogant with me, the owner
I am tired of typing, but I can go on. So the individuals that do not see what is going on should open their eyes. Maybe, because they do not own the property, and this the mind-set of being privalaged (sp?) instead of having the privelage to climb creates this thought process.
I do not have to get angry anymore.
My Best, and I still love people. I am a firm believer in Treating Others and You Want To Be Treated. To the girl who pissed in my backyard in front of my family and friends, may this come back to you ten-fold. Mark"
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organic
Nov 28, 2006, 4:43 AM
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hahahahahahahah! a chick pissing in his yard! SWEET!
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nevenneve
Nov 29, 2006, 12:55 PM
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Exactly the statement he's trying to make. Come to the red to experience barnyard odditites, imported delicacies, and more without the commitment of a trip over the border to TJ. With any luck the donation box at the land the rrgcc is buying will attract the better part of people willing to give back to what is making the red an expansive climbing destination. The pissing thing is kinda funny if you can imagine the delicate flower in question balking at the rustic outhouse on the hill. Once a bridesmaid..........
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reg
Nov 29, 2006, 1:09 PM
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organic wrote: hahahahahahahah! a chick pissing in his yard! SWEET!
yeah real funny - ur part of the problem - this "in your face" attidude i see so much of these days shows no respect for anyone and begats disrespect for everyone including yourself.
if i mis-interpeded your responce then "never mind"!
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j_ung
Nov 29, 2006, 2:46 PM
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I have a complex set of thoughts right now...
What the Hell kind of climber would close a climbing area? It's his land and he can do what he wishes. What a bunch of assholes the people were who caused this. How could pissing in a yard and a few dogs close an entire crag? -- seems excessive. Oh well, I don't exactly frequent the Red anyway. Crap, now I have to rent a cabin to climb at Torrent. Well here's a fine example of how climber behavior has farreaching effects for other climbers.
See? Complex, I tell you.
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jonqdoe
Nov 29, 2006, 2:51 PM
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Man, that sucks. I can't say that I blame him in any way (I would've closed it a long time ago), but I'm bummed. I was really looking forward to trying Seek the Truth again...
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redpoint73
Nov 29, 2006, 3:11 PM
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I think we should all learn something from this. Climbing access is sensitive, no matter where the area is or who owns them, public or private property. The general public does not understand climbing, or care about whether you are pissed about not being able to climb at a particular area.
Its everyone's responsibility to abide by the rules of the landowners, and to be respectful of them in general. If you see a private landowner or park ranger, greet them and talk to them if you have time, or at least give them a friendly smile and a wave. Pick up after yourselves, and after others for that matter. Follow the vehicle parking rules. If the rules say no dogs, then don't bring your dog.
I think many of us do these things already, but I also think that its in each of us to try a little harder, and to help educate others at the crag.
With the increasing popularity of climbing, the problem of climber impact is only going to get worse. Don't be "that guy" that gets the climbing area closed.
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j_ung
Nov 29, 2006, 3:49 PM
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^^ "Trophy."
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holdplease2
Nov 29, 2006, 3:52 PM
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Hi Jay:
On one hand, if the crag was a half mile or more from your home and you never went there, a few dogs and a little piss/shit/swearing wouldn't matter.
But this guy is trying to run a business...where families don't need to step in human shit OR dog shit when they rent his cabins. Where people don't need dogs running free (earlier complaint)/barking and shitting in the yards of rental cabins. Where shouting and swearing all sat/sun doesn't exactly add to the relaxing vacation atmosphere for the non-climber type.
At the end of the day, it was the guys home and his business and the crag wasn't far away. He asked for donations to help maintian things and provided a port-o-potty for climbers. He had the area open for many years and asked many times for climbers to behave.
Climbers choose not to behave. He now chooses that there will be no climbers. Makes perfect sense to me.
-Kate.
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cmajercz
Nov 29, 2006, 4:38 PM
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I certainly hope that climbers don't go to his restaurant. Go to Miguels and Red River Outdoors.....you know, businesses that embrace climbers (take the good with the bad)
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nthusiastj
Nov 29, 2006, 5:04 PM
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Nice Job Fuckers...
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captainstatic
Nov 29, 2006, 5:06 PM
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j_ung wrote: How could pissing in a yard and a few dogs close an entire crag? -- seems excessive.
Climber behavior has been an issue in every one of our access problems in Red River Gorge. Bolting of sport climbs w/o regard for Forest Service regulations was an issue in the bolting ban. Climbers camping under the overhang at Military was an issue in the closure there. Disrespect to an oil worker created PMRP access issues and indirectly led to the closure of two crags. Where is it going to stop? What crag will irresponsible climber behavior affect next?
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feanor007
Nov 29, 2006, 5:12 PM
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cmajercz wrote: I certainly hope that climbers don't go to his restaurant. Go to Miguels and Red River Outdoors.....you know, businesses that embrace climbers (take the good with the bad)
wrong, mark does embrace climbers, he doesn't embrace people pissing in his yard (after HE paid for a porta-potty, not climbers) or leaving shit everywhere. Most of his emplyees were climbers, and they have jumped to support him. I'll also say that while we (local people, even though i only climbed at torrent twice this season) didn't do a good job of policing an area we love, the general sentiment is that it wasn't lexington/local climbers who were the issue, as Mark is one of us. he embraced climbers, we failed, as a community, to embrace him back. i never ate at torrent before, mainly b/c i love piazza, but i think next time i'm down their i'll eat there just to let him/his family know that i support the decision.
that being the case, from now on i'm not gonna politly pick up after people all across the gorge, but if i'm in say Muir Valley a dog unleashed, people disregarding closed signs, leaving trash around, top-roping through the ancors, ya better believe some one's gonna hear it. don't care how much harder than me they climb. Same thing anywhere else. unfortuantly we have been retaught a painful lesson, police your self or get policed. if you think this doesn't matter 'cause you never climbed here (torrent or the Gorge), watch out, you next.
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unkemptbeard
Nov 29, 2006, 5:13 PM
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This is definitely sad news.
I spent several days with jonqdoe in the Red for his bachelor party in late September and I don't think we had a better time anywhere than at Torrent. Truly a beautiful place with wonderful routes across a good spectrum of grades. It's a real kick in the teeth to see access closed.
That being said, I fully support his decision.
I think that climbers in general are a decent group of people. But every time I'm out at a crag (especially a popular place like the Red) and I stop and listen...or stop to look around. I hear and see exactly what has Mark and his family so upset. I hear people swearing and yelling. Constantly. I even do it myself even though when I really step back and listen to myself talk I sound like a complete fool.
I find garbage on the ground...and I have to deal with other people's pets. I've come upon a climber taking a crap on an access trail, and when I expressed my disapproval I was told to "shut the fuck up" and that "I didn't know what I was talking about."
Our generation has this weird sense of entitlement. That somehow the rules are good for the community at large but don't apply to us individually. "Oh yeah, it's a good idea to not allow dogs at this crag...but everyone loves my dog...He's a good crag dog."
I'm going to tell you right now that I don't love your dog.
A lot of people seemed to think that the Torrent Falls donation box was meant for everyone but them.
We were allowed to climb at Torrent because of the owner's generosity and willingness to accomodate the needs of a very specific user group. He set up a few not so hard to follow rules, as he should be entitled to do. It is his land and his place of business. As a community, we have screwed up. We have not shown Mark, his family, and his business the respect that they deserve.
No margin for bitching and moaning on this one--the guy is right in doing what he did.
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dbrayack
Nov 29, 2006, 5:44 PM
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It really sucks when a few climbers get an area closed...bummer, I was trying to do all the (easy 12s) in the red according to the New RRG guide.....got em all but Bare Metal Teen...oh well. Access sounds worse than Hueco now.
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captainstatic
Nov 29, 2006, 7:19 PM
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Bare Metal is one of the hardest easy .12's in RRG  . Still, yes it is sad to lose the open access to this and the many other stellar routes @ Torrent.
For a little more background, this is not the first time Torrent has been closed. Torrent was originally closed when Mr. Martin, the previous owner, started building the B&B. The current owners, the Meyers, took a risk by opening the area back up to climbing. They have given us eight years of great climbing and I am very thankful to the Meyers for that. I for one will still be eating BBQ.
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cmajercz
Nov 29, 2006, 7:23 PM
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unkemptbeard wrote: A lot of people seemed to think that the Torrent Falls donation box was meant for everyone but them.
He's stated on the redriverclimbing board that he makes next to nothing on the donation box anyway. Plus it is a DONATION box, not a pay box. Many people look at it as optional. It IS optional. If it wasn't it would be a PAY box. Now does that mean no one donates? Of course not. I'd imagine alot of people (myself included) pitch a buck or two in there. But is not mandatory and should not be expected to generate any "income".
Also, I would imagine 1% of all climbers created any problem at all. I've NEVER in my 8 years of climbing, seen anyone shit on trails. I've seen maybe 3 dogs that I would consider to be problem dogs. I've seen climbers blatantly litter a handful of times.
I think perhaps Mark is expecting too much. There will ALWAYS be people who break the rules. ALWAYS.
That said, it's his land and he can do whatever he wants with it.
I won't be spending a dime there, and I'll encourage everyone to do the same.
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unkemptbeard
Nov 29, 2006, 8:21 PM
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I never implied he was looking to make a profit from the donation box. Just pointing out that many people bypass it even though they are encouraged to donate if they wish to climb there.
Is it okay for people to skip out on the donation box just because it is optional? Is it optional? I guess that's true in the sense that there aren't any penalties for people who opt not to donate. But I think there's a difference between what is mandatory and what is proper. Just because fee collection isn't enforced doesn't mean it's okay to walk right past it when there is a sign specifically asking that climbers offer up a donation if they wish to climb.
For all practical purposes, it's optional to pack out that Clif bar wrapper with you or to not throw a cigarette butt on the ground. It's optional to not relieve yourself near a source of water. It's optional to buy that round of beer instead of skipping out on your pals when your turn comes up.
Being optional doesn't make it okay to ignore the prevailing ethic--be it dictated by years of tradition or the simple request of the landowner.
I do agree with you, cmajercz, in general though--by and large most people are cooperative, friendly, good folks and would never, ever cause a problem. I have taken issue with very, very (very very) few people while out climbing. The problem is that you tend to notice the obnoxious, problem causing 1% a lot more than you do the well behaved 99%. And the bad experiences tend to stick with you sometimes.
I don't think that he's expecting too much though. It's his property and he has every right to be strict in his expectations of guests there. I don't think it's fair to fault him for that.
Saying that he should just deal with it because there will always be people who break the rules is a cop out. People didn't adhere to his rules and treat his property as he wished. Now he's taking a stand. He's sticking to his guns and closing down Torrent just like he said he would if general behavior didn't improve. I respect that.
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unkemptbeard
Nov 29, 2006, 8:38 PM
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cmajercz wrote: I've NEVER in my 8 years of climbing, seen anyone shit on trails.
Yeah my eyes were pretty wide when I stumbled on this little gem too.
To be as fair as I can in this situation, I encountered it on a lesser used climbers' trail on a band of rock below the main trail at a location that was not Torrent Falls of the Red River Gorge. This trail is located roughly 15 feet from where most people walk through the area. I prefer this lower trail and was walking on it that day. And lo, what did I find there? A pantless gentleman unloading between two rocks. This was an akward situation for both of us, so I backtracked around to the high trail. During the backtracking, I exclaimed my disapproval at finding my favorite little trail being made into a toilet. I was then informed by the pantless gentleman that he could shit wherever he pleased and that it wasn't a trail as far as he knew. We let it die there and considered the matter settled. We never got around to hugging or anything but I like to think we made our peace that day.
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cmajercz
Nov 29, 2006, 8:44 PM
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I totally respect his right to do whatever he wants to do with his property.
I just don't think we all need to kiss his ass for "putting up with us". Climbers are among the most considerate group of human beings I've known. Perhaps theres 1% that give us a bad look, but I'd venture to say those are pretty good odds against the rest of the general population.
If he's fed up with the behavior being exhibited on his property, then he should (as he's done) eliminate that behavior as he sees fit. But I'm fed up with people bitching about littering, yelling, dogs, and excrement, when there's really not that much of it to begin with. When you see a piece of litter pick it up (as I'm sure most of the climbing population does). If you by chance see someone shitting or pissing in an inappropriate place, tell them whats up. If you're fed up with a dogs behavior, get on the owner about it. But don't ever expect it to disappear completely.
We're an easy group of people to be around. Let's remember that before we start berating ourselves. I don't think we deserve it.
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feanor007
Nov 29, 2006, 9:01 PM
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cmajercz wrote: I totally respect his right to do whatever he wants to do with his property. I just don't think we all need to kiss his ass for "putting up with us". Climbers are among the most considerate group of human beings I've known. Perhaps theres 1% that give us a bad look, but I'd venture to say those are pretty good odds against the rest of the general population. If he's fed up with the behavior being exhibited on his property, then he should (as he's done) eliminate that behavior as he sees fit. But I'm fed up with people bitching about littering, yelling, dogs, and excrement, when there's really not that much of it to begin with. When you see a piece of litter pick it up (as I'm sure most of the climbing population does). If you by chance see someone shitting or pissing in an inappropriate place, tell them whats up. If you're fed up with a dogs behavior, get on the owner about it. But don't ever expect it to disappear completely. We're an easy group of people to be around. Let's remember that before we start berating ourselves. I don't think we deserve it.
i don't think climbers are any more considerate than the general population, perhaps even a little worse as our sport is predicated on self-gratification. the point is 1% is too much. and from my experiances the last couple of years around the gorge, it's a bit more than 1%.
also I don't think most people pick up litter, example one day at bruisebrothers wall in Muir valley, my party got their first and i noticed a old water bottle by a tree many people put their stuff under (behind rat stew, for those of you who have been there). I decided if it was there at the end of the day, i'd take it with me, but i wanted to see if anyone else would. this is one of the most popular crags in the gorge as it has 10-15 awsome sub-5.11 lines. it was perfect saturday and probally 30-40, if not more, people were in and out of the crag. We were the last to leave as i was leading a group (came early and stayed late to have some time for personal climbing) and the bottle was still there. most every one saw it (or they were blind) and though it was obviously trash, ie coverd in dirt, nobody took it. this is not an isolated incident.
Mark gave us a second chance in May and we blew it. i wise person would see this as a harbinger of things to come if we don't shape up fast. the evidence shows we aren't (or wern't) an easy group of people to be around. what we don't deserve is to climb at torrent, it was a privilage, as is all climbing. Blowing off failure doesn't improve anything, we must learn from it.
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