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wjca


Dec 1, 2006, 2:11 PM
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Swearing an oath on a bible or other religious text
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I just came across this story about newly elected "Minnesota Democrat Keith Ellison's decision to take the oath of office Jan. 4 with his hand on a Quran, the Muslim holy book..." rather than the bible. The guy who has raised such a shit storm about it, Dennis Prager, host of the conservative website Townhall.com, is adament that Ellison should take his oath of office by swearing upon the bible. And the Prager guy is Jewish of all things.

I don't understand what putting your hand on a bible, koran or book of morman has to do with performing the job of congressman or telling the truth in court for that matter.

What's even crazier is the outrage the congressman's decision is raising amongst all the conservative crazies that agree he should be forced to swear upon the bible.

Anyway, I thought you all would be interested.

http://articles.news.aol.com/...id=NWS00010000000001


qdiggety


Dec 1, 2006, 2:31 PM
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Re: [wjca] Swearing an oath on a bible or other religious text [In reply to]
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Hmmm.... I'd figure that it would be up to the swearee's religion as to what book they use. A bible for christians, talmud & torah for Jewish folks, Koran for muslims, etc.

Me, I'd like a stack of porno mags....


devils_advocate


Dec 1, 2006, 2:45 PM
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Re: [wjca] Swearing an oath on a bible or other religious text [In reply to]
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wjca wrote:
I don't understand what putting your hand on a bible, koran or book of morman has to do with performing the job of congressman or telling the truth in court for that matter.

It does absolutely nothing, except that putting your hand on the Book of Mormon might stir inner desires to knock on your neighbors' doors early on Saturday.

Another silly vestige of religion still in use where it should not.


dingus


Dec 1, 2006, 2:56 PM
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Re: [qdiggety] Swearing an oath on a bible or other religious text [In reply to]
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I totally support Ellison's right to swear in on the Koran. I think Prager is an idiot. He's quoted as saying this does more harm to the US than 911. What an idiotic position to take.

First of all, the Constitution is quite clear on the matter, the State cannot impose religious restrictions. So for so long as the practice of 'swearing in' remains, it is only proper to open that up to any valid religion, Ron Hubbard's included.

I think (listening to a few talk radio shows in the car on a short trip this afternoon) there is an element of prejudice involved at the root, for some folks. It isn't the Koran per se that get's their dander up, it's the fact that they perceive a Muslim (of all things!) coming into Congress and ruffling the delicate feathers of cultural sensibilities, OH MY!

It is a reaction it Islam, at its root.

Oh we Americans like to talk about our fairness and famous humility (for saving the world of course). But when push comes to shove many of us are insular and prejudiced all to hell, deep down.

Ellison's oath is an OPPORTUNITY, not a problem! We should be touting this from the highest steeple, but more importantly, from the highest minaret, see...

WE AMERICANS PUT OUR MONEY WHERE OUR MOUTH'S ARE.

We can show the Islamic world that America can live side-by-side with Islam. We can show the Islamic world that Islam and Democracy are not natural enemies. We can demonstrate tolerance and acceptance and respect for our Constitution.

Or we can be religious bigots, basically.

Better no book at all than just the christian bible, just like in our courts. But I see no harm and great gain to be had by showing respect, RESPECT, for the peaceful members of all religions.

Cultures don't take Oath's of Office btw.

Cheers
DMT


reno


Dec 1, 2006, 3:45 PM
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Re: [wjca] Swearing an oath on a bible or other religious text [In reply to]
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Prager's stance is wrong.


overlord


Dec 2, 2006, 12:39 AM
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Re: [dingus] Swearing an oath on a bible or other religious text [In reply to]
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dingus, i agree wholeheartedly.

i always thought swearing on the bible was stupid. and i agree that if youre not christian, you shouldnt have to swear on it. i would like my stack of porn mags, please as im an agnosticAngelic


curt


Dec 3, 2006, 6:16 PM
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Re: [dingus] Swearing an oath on a bible or other religious text [In reply to]
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dingus wrote:
...We can show the Islamic world that America can live side-by-side with Islam. We can show the Islamic world that Islam and Democracy are not natural enemies. We can demonstrate tolerance and acceptance and respect for our Constitution...

Unfortunately, all that goes out the window with the first political cartoon of their prophet. The very principles of our democracy (including free speech) and Islam are miles and miles apart.

Curt


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Dec 4, 2006, 1:40 AM
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Re: [curt] Swearing an oath on a bible or other religious text [In reply to]
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curt wrote:
dingus wrote:
...We can show the Islamic world that America can live side-by-side with Islam. We can show the Islamic world that Islam and Democracy are not natural enemies. We can demonstrate tolerance and acceptance and respect for our Constitution...

Unfortunately, all that goes out the window with the first political cartoon of their prophet. The very principles of our democracy (including free speech) and Islam are miles and miles apart.

Curt

Abusing and belittling people for their religious beliefs by printing cartoons which are specifically designed to offend them (then actually complaining and abusing them more when they're offended!) is not an example of the "living side-by-side" attitude being described.

That's the "prejudiced-all-to-hell" attitude.


thorne
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Dec 4, 2006, 7:35 AM
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Re: [wjca] Swearing an oath on a bible or other religious text [In reply to]
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Keith Ellison gets trollmaster status for this one.

He announced he intended to take the oath of office Jan. 4 with his hand on a Quran. According to House historians, there is no placing your hand on The Bible or any other book during the swearing in process. What is commonly done is a photo op, with newly sworn in members posing with their hands on a Bible. But it's not part of the official process.

Ellison made his statement and Prager took the bait and ran with it. Unfortunately, for Prager, his outrage is based on a false premise.

DURRRR. Crazy


veganclimber


Dec 4, 2006, 4:39 PM
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Re: [tradman] Swearing an oath on a bible or other religious text [In reply to]
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In reply to:
Abusing and belittling people for their religious beliefs by printing cartoons which are specifically designed to offend them

The word abuse is a little strong there. They were just cartoons.

In reply to:
then actually complaining and abusing them more when they're offended!)

Nobody is complaining that they were offended. It was more the riots, arson, and murder.

In reply to:
is not an example of the "living side-by-side" attitude being described.

Part of living in a free country is living side-by-side with people you don't always agree with and not responding violently when somebody offends you.


Partner rrrADAM


Dec 4, 2006, 5:12 PM
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Re: [wjca] Swearing an oath on a bible or other religious text [In reply to]
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Swearing an oath on a bible or other religious text
The above action is a great and prime example of a superstition turned into a rite an action thought to have great importance and impact.


Think about it, honestly... How many people do you suppose have lied or broken a vow after swearing such an oath, and what consequences to you really think they suffered ??? Honestly, what ???


Integrity comes from within, not from an object or a fear on the outside.... You either have it, or you don't... And I define integrity as doing the right thing even when you KNOW you won't get caught, not just when you think you may get caught.



"I swear upon a used wad of toilet paper that..."


(This post was edited by rrradam on Dec 4, 2006, 5:18 PM)


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Dec 4, 2006, 9:23 PM
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Re: [rrradam] Swearing an oath on a bible or other religious text [In reply to]
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Prager's reaction and comments only further Thomas Jefferson's loathing for the mixing of church and state... Prager seems to forget that freedom OF religion also means freedom FROM religion... including which, if any, book one is sworn in with or on. (Let's not forget that Jefferson was a big fan of taxing churches as any other business... and I forget which it was (Adams, perhaps?) that, in the Treaty of Versailles wrote, "... the United States is NOT a Christian country...."

Those Federalist papers are an interesting read, indeed.


fancyclaps


Dec 5, 2006, 2:37 PM
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Re: [devils_advocate] Swearing an oath on a bible or other religious text [In reply to]
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In reply to:
It does absolutely nothing, except that putting your hand on the Book of Mormon might stir inner desires to knock on your neighbors' doors early on Saturday.

Trophy for this!Sly

(This post was edited by fancyclaps on Dec 5, 2006, 2:37 PM)


Partner tradman


Dec 6, 2006, 1:58 AM
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Re: [veganclimber] Swearing an oath on a bible or other religious text [In reply to]
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In reply to:
The word abuse is a little strong there. They were just cartoons.

I tend to categorize as abuse anything which has the sole purpose of offending someone.

The word "coon" is just a word. But if you shout it at a black person, I doubt most people would have to think twice about whether that's abuse, right?

In reply to:
Nobody is complaining that they were offended. It was more the riots, arson, and murder.

In a similar way, if I walked along the street behind a group of black guys shouting, "COON! COON! NIGGER!" do you think I'd have any real reason to complain if they turned around and kicked the sh*t out of me?

In reply to:
Part of living in a free country is living side-by-side with people you don't always agree with and not responding violently when somebody offends you.

That's an interesting idea. I tend to think that deliberately offending people for fun is wrong in the first place.

The idea that abuse victims should shut up and take it no matter what's thrown at them is one that I don't think I could ever get behind, sorry.


vertical_reality


Dec 6, 2006, 5:10 AM
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Re: [veganclimber] Swearing an oath on a bible or other religious text [In reply to]
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veganclimber wrote:
Part of living in a free country is living side-by-side with people you don't always agree with and not responding violently when somebody offends you.

That's right, the American way is to bitch and moan and sue and force your views on everyone else.


blondgecko
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Dec 6, 2006, 5:21 AM
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Re: [tradman] Swearing an oath on a bible or other religious text [In reply to]
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tradman wrote:
In reply to:
The word abuse is a little strong there. They were just cartoons.

I tend to categorize as abuse anything which has the sole purpose of offending someone.

The word "coon" is just a word. But if you shout it at a black person, I doubt most people would have to think twice about whether that's abuse, right?

In reply to:
Nobody is complaining that they were offended. It was more the riots, arson, and murder.

In a similar way, if I walked along the street behind a group of black guys shouting, "COON! COON! NIGGER!" do you think I'd have any real reason to complain if they turned around and kicked the sh*t out of me?

In reply to:
Part of living in a free country is living side-by-side with people you don't always agree with and not responding violently when somebody offends you.

That's an interesting idea. I tend to think that deliberately offending people for fun is wrong in the first place.

The idea that abuse victims should shut up and take it no matter what's thrown at them is one that I don't think I could ever get behind, sorry.

Y'know, this would ring so much more true if cartoons such as these, these, these and these weren't commonplace in the Arab media.


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Dec 6, 2006, 5:30 AM
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Re: [blondgecko] Swearing an oath on a bible or other religious text [In reply to]
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In reply to:
Y'know, this would ring so much more true if cartoons such as these, these, these and these weren't commonplace in the Arab media.

Yeah, doesn't really help, does it?

It's easy to see how hate only leads to hate.


veganclimber


Dec 6, 2006, 12:10 PM
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Re: [tradman] Swearing an oath on a bible or other religious text [In reply to]
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In reply to:
In reply to:
Nobody is complaining that they were offended. It was more the riots, arson, and murder.

In a similar way, if I walked along the street behind a group of black guys shouting, "COON! COON! NIGGER!" do you think I'd have any real reason to complain if they turned around and kicked the sh*t out of me?

You could certainly understand where they are coming from, but that doesn't make it right. Besides, that's not really what happened here. It would be more like you driving by and yelling NIGGER, they reply by killing the next white guy they see. After all, I'm pretty sure that nun they killed had nothing to do with the cartoons.



In reply to:
In reply to:
Part of living in a free country is living side-by-side with people you don't always agree with and not responding violently when somebody offends you.

That's an interesting idea. I tend to think that deliberately offending people for fun is wrong in the first place.

The idea that abuse victims should shut up and take it no matter what's thrown at them is one that I don't think I could ever get behind, sorry.

Fine, offending people for fun is wrong but are you actually saying that that justifies murder? They killed people over a cartoon. Are you really defending these murderers?

Nobody is saying they (these poor victims of abuse) should just shut up and take it. They can complain all they want. They can make their own cartoons, which they have apparently been doing as pointed out by blondgecko. They can boycott the paper. Or they can just ignore it and get on with there lives. But killing people and committing arson over this is just indefensible, why are you trying?


reno


Dec 6, 2006, 1:04 PM
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Re: [tradman] Swearing an oath on a bible or other religious text [In reply to]
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tradman wrote:
I tend to categorize as abuse anything which has the sole purpose of offending someone.

Well, I categorize it as offensive, not abusive. But that's just me.

In reply to:
The word "coon" is just a word. But if you shout it at a black person, I doubt most people would have to think twice about whether that's abuse, right?

Yeah, people would. Or, rather, SHOULD. It's offensive, sure, but not abusive.

You can call me "Nazi" all day long. It is abusive? Not in the least. It is offensive, but abuse?

In reply to:
In reply to:
Nobody is complaining that they were offended. It was more the riots, arson, and murder.

In a similar way, if I walked along the street behind a group of black guys shouting, "COON! COON! NIGGER!" do you think I'd have any real reason to complain if they turned around and kicked the sh*t out of me?

Well, if they only kick the shit out of YOU, that's fine. When they start to kick the shit out of anyone that looks like you, is from the same place as you, or attends the same church as you, then they've crossed the line.

BIG difference.

In reply to:
In reply to:
Part of living in a free country is living side-by-side with people you don't always agree with and not responding violently when somebody offends you.

That's an interesting idea. I tend to think that deliberately offending people for fun is wrong in the first place.

Yep. But you don't have any right to be free from offensive words, phrases, or images. To do that would be to restrict thought, speech, or expression. And I'm pretty sure you wouldn't support that, would you?


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Dec 7, 2006, 4:47 AM
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Re: [veganclimber] Swearing an oath on a bible or other religious text [In reply to]
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I'm not defending the reaction from a small section of the muslim community. They were dead wrong, I agree with you 100% on that.

But at the same time, I think it's just plain stupid and hypocritical to pretend that you're surprised that people got offended when offensive material about them was printed.

So you think it's okay for us to insult them as long as they can then insult us - do you honestly believe that an endless cycle of insults and revenge attacks is the best way to deal with this?

On that point, I couldn't agree with you less - and your arguing for a bizarre imagined "right" to abuse people makes it pretty obvious that you're just not interested in changing or improving things at all.


(This post was edited by tradman on Dec 7, 2006, 4:48 AM)


veganclimber


Dec 7, 2006, 12:19 PM
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Re: [tradman] Swearing an oath on a bible or other religious text [In reply to]
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In reply to:
But at the same time, I think it's just plain stupid and hypocritical to pretend that you're surprised that people got offended when offensive material about them was printed.

I am not at all surprised that they were offended. I would just expect them to deal with it without resorting to violence.

In reply to:
So you think it's okay for us to insult them as long as they can then insult us - do you honestly believe that an endless cycle of insults and revenge attacks is the best way to deal with this?

No

In reply to:
On that point, I couldn't agree with you less - and your arguing for a bizarre imagined "right" to abuse people makes it pretty obvious that you're just not interested in changing or improving things at all.

This "bizarre" right you are talking about is called free speech. And no, I am not the slightest bit interested in changing that.


reno


Dec 7, 2006, 12:47 PM
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Re: [veganclimber] Swearing an oath on a bible or other religious text [In reply to]
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veganclimber wrote:
In reply to:
But at the same time, I think it's just plain stupid and hypocritical to pretend that you're surprised that people got offended when offensive material about them was printed.

I am not at all surprised that they were offended. I would just expect them to deal with it without resorting to violence.

Honestly, I don't think that the fringe/radical fundamentalist Muslims are capable of dealing with offense by means other than violence. It's all they've known for years, and when the only tool you have is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail.

Beyond that, though, it's a greater regional issue: Never before in time has one part of human society asked so much of everyone else, yet so little of itself, as the modern day Middle East.


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Dec 8, 2006, 1:44 AM
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Re: [reno] Swearing an oath on a bible or other religious text [In reply to]
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Never before in time has one part of human society asked so much of everyone else, yet so little of itself, as the modern day Middle East.

I'm not sure I'd agree with that.

Bear in mind that we're the ones who invaded Iraq, killed the government and demanded that the population convert to democracy, and that we're the ones telling Iran that they have to stop developing the same technology we already have on pain of all-out war.

I'd say we're asking an awful lot of the middle east - asking for a complete and total change in governments, attitudes and culture overnight, with the threat of extreme violence if they can't or won't.


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Dec 8, 2006, 1:50 AM
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Re: [veganclimber] Swearing an oath on a bible or other religious text [In reply to]
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In reply to:
This "bizarre" right you are talking about is called free speech. And no, I am not the slightest bit interested in changing that.

Sorry, I forgot you're in America.

Here in the UK, we have laws which prevent people from inciting racial hatred and violence. Muslims have been prosecuted, imprisoned and deported under these laws, as have non-muslims.

The laws are reasonably new, but were passed after a long debate which concluded - rightly, I think - that there's never a good reason to promote racism and bigotry.

Why anyone would want to defend hatred and racism is beyond me, I'm afraid.


dingus


Dec 8, 2006, 6:47 AM
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Re: [tradman] Swearing an oath on a bible or other religious text [In reply to]
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tradman wrote:
I tend to think that deliberately offending people for fun is wrong in the first place.

I expect your apology forthwith.

DMT

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